Modern Vespa

Yesterday I drove my P125 about 30 miles to pick up a rental car for the week.  I pulled into the parking lot just fine.  When I went to move the scoot I noticed a squeaking sound while moving.  My rear tire was rubbing against the swing arm.  How odd.  There was slight shining of the tire, it had just started so the tire is still ok.  

I hoped on MV, read similar posts of people experiencing their tire leaning into the rear spring/shock and new rubber bushings/mounts/whatever helped hold the engine up to correct the tire lean.  I ordered new rubbers, should be here on Monday.  

I posted a little blurb in the 'today I...' thread, someone suggested to check my hub nut.  It's rock solid, won't even budge.  I put on my spare which was a couple MMs narrower and got it home.  

It started to get me to think about a few things.  1) I just put on a new rear tire about 500 miles ago, 3 weeks or so, Vee Rubber Winter tire.  Already I'm noticing a significant wear on the tread.
2) my previous tire, a zippy 1, seemed to wear abnormally fast at the end of it's life.  
3) after more examination, the tire isn't excessively leaning, some people have posted pics of their rear shock attachment and mine seems very good. But the tire angled off to the right, almost like toe-in, is very prominent.
4) I feel like I have needed new brake shoes for quite some time.  I've put about 7000 miles on this scooter in a year, and I'm almost sure the shoes are still from the factory, last time I examined them, however, there were still a few MMs, of pad left so I didn't bother.
5) just this week I've noticed a slight squeak from the rear brake some of the time.
6) I put in a SIP speedo a few weeks ago which has instilled in me new confidence at higher speeds.  I've been cranking this P125 at full throttle for 20-30 miles at a time at 55-60mph.  That's about 10-15 mph faster than I've ever pushed it.  

I haven't yet loosened my hub nut to really investigate, but curious if anyone has experienced anything like this or might have advice.  I plan on really getting to work on it tomorrow.

3.50 X 10 tire, right? When you put it on new, it cleared OK? Rubs on the side or the tread?

No pat answers, but a thought.

The excessive tire wear made me think about your overall frame alignment. If it was too far off, the new hi speed riding could be scrubbing rubber off faster than it should or did before.

Sorry I can't suggest how to be sure, but check fork, mudguard & front of floor sheetmetal for signs of any hard front end impact in the past.

When you say 'rubbing on the swing arm' I'm guessing you actually mean the domed clutch cover.

I see you put on a new rear tire about 500 miles ago, 3 weeks or so, Vee Rubber Winter tire. There is little clearance at that point even with a stock 3.50x10 tyre so maybe the new winter tyre (even if a 3.50x10) is actually moulded a little wider than normal. This has caught a few people out when trying some of the better tyres which usually come in the slightly larger metric size of 100/90x10. I have a slightly lower profile 100/80x10 which just about clears. Problem is also exascerbated by different manufacturers tyres of the same size often differing slightly in width.

Yes, you are correct that the tire is slightly larger than my previous zippy 1, which is slightly larger than an older tire I have laying around.

But, when I mean swing arm, I don't mean the clutch cover, I mean the swing arm. Like the swing arm that gets bolted to the frame and contains the main engine mounts. Underneath the cylinder it extends forward to provide clearance for the tire, then is about 9 inches wide where the main bolt runs from either side of the frame, through the mount. It is misaligned so much it is rubbing on the part of the swing arm that extends forward towards the back of the frame. It does clear the spring/shock and the clutch cover. I can take a picture tomorrow and post it. It's like the tire is angled to the right.

I have never had an issue like this in the past, and yes, new tire cleared just fine up until the other day. Rubbing is on the sidewall. It doesn't look like it's been in any accidents other than just normal bumps and scrapes. Also doesn't show any signs of reconstruction other than a rattle can paint job from it's former blue, and someone wanted it to look faster so they put a t5 horn cover on it.

I'm not discounting the thought of the frame being misaligned, but why would it suddenly become increasingly misaligned, if the frame was misaligned 7000 miles ago when I got it, why would it suddenly show signs of it now? The zippy 1 I had on it was new when I got the scoot, the Vee rubber is only the second tire I've put on it.

" why would it suddenly show signs of it now? "

Not sure, but #6 maybe? Also do look inside the hub, on account of #5 & post what you find.

I don't know what's causing your problem, but there's no use thinking about frame alignment for this issue. (Or engine mounts for that matter.) Think about it, this is totally independent of the frame... if you took the engine out of the frame as a unit with the wheel still attached it would presumably still rub on the swingarm.

But I think your first step would be to check that the rim in question is seating correctly on the hub and not bent or misaligned in some way, and hub is seating correctly on its shaft, i.e. remove/reinstall.

Alright, did about 10 minutes of work today on the vespa, most of it was a photo session.

basically all I did was take pictures of the situation and look for signs of wear and obvious problems.

The only wear I found was on the clutch cover, not even on the swing arm where the tire was rubbing as well. TCC, you called this... do you have knowledge or experience here??

I laid it on it's side for a couple of the pictures, tried wiggling the wheel back and forth to see if there was any play, it was solid.

I removed the hub nut to take a look at the inside of the hub and drum, it looked fine to me, but I don't know exactly what I would be looking for, it could be worn...maybe?

The seal looks in good condition as does the drive shaft

The hub nut and washer are old, maybe they are worn, but i can't imagine it would cause changes in the angle of the wheel this dramatically.

Brakes still look old to me, there is a chip in the top shoe, but still got about 3-4mm left on em....

I decided just before heading in to switch the hub to the new Vee Rubber wheel and just put it on without bolting it to see if it would still rub. It was touching both the clutch cover and the swing arm without even being bolted on.

Help anyone?

I agree with the frame alignment issue, but still not sure about the engine mounts. You're probably right on both.

It's clear from the rub marks that the wheel isn't true. But for the most part, it's rubbing nearly all the way around it so I'm not sure how much the trueness is a part of the bigger issue. If it was seated on the hub incorrectly then there would be much more wobble. By the pictures i am seeing some wobble/untrueness, but i'm not completely convinced it's the root of the problem. And i did remove the hub, then just placed the hub with the new tire on the shaft and it was touching.

Hey there... I had the same thing with a Weatherman 100/90-10 it rubbed the clutch cover.. they're pretty beefy.. so I put small washers between the hub and the rim.. solved and there is NO noticeable offset... it's so small you'd never know.. OR you can use a 1/2 a cosa rim, and the side wall of the tire will be less "bulged out".. it'll be flatter and it shouldn't rub. Either one of those works with the weatherman. I crawled under mine last night and it was NOT rubbing the swing arm (I never thought of that until your post, but it was only the clutch cover)

You could also mill a tad off the outside of the clutch cover itself. (be careful and don't go through if you take this route)

I have 3 different sets of 100/90's and they're all different widths.. Racemen fit with no problem (just Barely) Weatherman rubs the cover (front it fine) and Heidenau K58's I haven't put on the bike yet, but their width is between the Racemen and Weathermen, so I suspect if it does rub it will be very slight if at all.

Interesting idea. I checked out some stuff from SIP. What's the difference between the Wide half of a cosa rim and the wide half of a regular rim? SIP also has a spacer kit.

Before I go down that road, does anyone see any red flags from the pictures above?

I don't see how this has anything to do with frame alignment or shock wear. The rim is bolted to the hub which is bolted to the main shaft. Its all engine related. If you take the engine out of the frame it should still rub.

What about tire pressure? Modern sport tires are wider than what the bikes were designed with. There is not much clearance to begin with and a soft tire may rub.

Which is what I experienced when I put the hub on the Vee Ruber tire and just placed it on the shaft. It hit both the swing arm and the clutch cover. When you say it's engine related do you mean that there's probably nothing wrong other than just that the tire is larger? I checked it before my initial ride and it was at 32psi. Could it have dropped, maybe, I could recheck the pressure as it sits here. I'd do it right now but my beer is still cold...

Would you be on the same page as Vader and suggest that there's not really anything wrong but to find another way to fit this wheel so it doesn't rub?

The cosa 1/2 is wider.. the sidewall will be more Straight up and down and not bulb out. Try the thin washers.. (as thin as you need) between the hub and the wheel.. I think the problem is simply that your tire is too fat...
The spacer you mention is good for a Wide tire but you'll have to cut your swing arm and move your motor over to the right.. Probably (but I'm not you) more trouble than you want.

Washers should work and the minimal offset is negligible.

i haven't looked at mine, but does the deep dish side of the wheel go to the hub side or the other? Wouldn't that fix the problem?

The deep side faces the engine, I'm pretty certain. if I flipped it around, all the nuts would be on the same side. Don't I want stud, nut, stud, nut... All the way around?

Yes the deep side faces the motor.. and you don't want to flop the rim.

Yeah, I think it probably doesn't rub much unless you sit on the bike. A LOT of people have this problem and the common solution is to grind a bit off the clutch cover and /or the swing arm.

I must have gotten fatter. Haha. I'm not much for grinding my cases, I might try vader's trick of the washers first, then order a cosa wide side rim half. If it's so common, i wonder why there aren't lots of posts about it, or someone that sells a wide version of a rim? Or maybe even a disclaimer on the 3.5x10 tire that says this is a big ass tire for 3.5x10. Funny stuff. I'll be playing a bit tomorrow I guess.

How wide is your tire? They do vary... even though all 3 I mentioned above are 100/90's the Weatherman is about 103mm and the Heidenau K58 is 102. The Raceman is closest at around 101mm, and it's that 1 or 2mm that makes the difference.

Good luck, I'm interested in how it turns out.

Cheers

Vader is right. It's only a matter of 1-2mm. So I'm not talking about grinding much off. Racers have been doing it since the 80's. Still, the washers will work, as an offset of a mm won't make much difference. Hell, a friend in the 80's put his rear rim on backwards after getting a flat on a Sat night. Drove it like that for weeks.

Just looked at your photos. I'm fairly certain its just a matter of your new tyre being wider than a regular 3.50x10 and it's rubbing on the clutch cover. The first indication of this is usually some difficulty in getting the wheel between the bottom frame edge and the wheel studs when fitting it.

Not much you can do if you want to persist with that tyre apart from spacing the wheel out from the hub a little or spacing the hub out along the shaft somewhat - neither solution sits well with me though. Nor am I in favour of grinding the clutch cover, there isn't much material there. If it's rubbing hard and you think it''ll wear down the sidewall in short order it won't, it''ll wear through the clutch cover first. Ask me how I know!

Why is it doing it now and not immediately after you fitted the tyre?
Maybe the sidewalls have gotten more flexible with use and this, combined with adding air after checking the pressure means they're bulging out more. It probably was rubbing slightly when you first fitted it but you just didn't notice.

Put some flat washers between the hub and the rim. The wheel clears both the clutch cover and the swing arm now! That's excellent! Only by like 2mm though. The only problem is that now the studs on the hub aren't long enough to fit my split washers.. Which might be a considerable safety hazard. I think I might be in the market for a wide half of a cosa rim. I do want to ride two up some times but I don't think it would clear at the moment with two people on it.

I did just go out for a short ride just to see how it would do at high speeds and it never seemed to rub.

When measuring the width of the tire, do you use a caliper at the widest part or use a tape and go from side to side on the riding surface ? Right now the widest part is at the middle of the sidewall.

Use a caliper so you're measuring at the centre of the sidewall (the widest part). Then go measure a regular 3.50x10 street tyre.

I had exactly this issue with Continental Whitewalls. They're a tad wider than the Michelins I usually use.

I replaced my lower and upper swing arm buffers, and that helped. I also stopped using the Continentals. They wore out REALLY fast, anyway.

Hojo

if you cant fit the lock washers then try nylock nuts.

Total genius! I'll pick some up tomorrow.

If you can get some try Nordlock washers.. they're thinner and awesome.. I have space (with the spacer washer) for a Nordlock and a Nylock nut.

wow fitting up a 100size tyre were that hard, imagine if u have to put a 120-10 size like me lots of washer and in the end gotta flip the rims

good luck with the tyre and cheer mate

I'd be replacing the tire. That said, the Faco mag style rims have a different offset than the stock ones, so if you don't mind the look that is an option. You need a set or the bike will handle funny. I ran 100/90-10's no problem with these rims.

Got a caliper today and did some measuring. The Vee Rubber says 3.5x10(100/90-10). Measuring with the caliper I get 103mm. The zippy 1 I have on the front is 99mm, same as my bald spare. Had an old CEAT tire in my garage not on a rim and I get 90mm. That's more than a cm difference between the old tire and this new one! Crazy.

I'll look up those other rims. Haven't yet decided which way to go. I have a feeling that I'm going to have to do something more for 2-up, but I'll check it out after the wife wakes up from a nap. I actually like this tire, it handles really well in frosty temps and when the road is wet. I'll just ride it till it goes bare too.

Chris, thanks for the good info, I remembered COSA wheels have to be different to clear, but no details. I think the SS180 uses same or similar setup. I will be seeing a friend's SS180 soon & will verify. I have a supposed SS180 wheel that came on my Rally, pictured below next to stock 3.50x10 . Easy to see the difference & how it 'pulls' the tire away from the clutch cover.


Stock outer half is ~27mm & the SS/COSA(?) is ~42mmn wide, inners are the same & are interchangeable.

'tuber, if you wanna try before you buy, I could loan you the different half for a couple months.

BTW, the frame alignment advice was for the separate faster tire wear issue newly noted by OP, not the light rubbing on the clutch cover. What about that?

edit to fix pic

Actually, 3.5-10 tyres would be the equivalent to a 90/100-10 tyre. 100/90-10 tyres usually don't fit on a largeframe vespa without modifications. (Some do, most don't).

That vee rubber tyre of yours is obviously too wide and should have been marked 100/90-10. With a 2.5-10 rim (oem vespa rims are 2.1-10) you'd probably be able avoid any rubbing, but your rear wheel wouldn't be aligned properly.

The 'standard' wheelset is marked 3.50x10 & measures 2 3/4" wide while the SS set is 3 7/16" wide assembled. Half the difference between those measurements is about how much the tire center moves away from the motor if switched.

The SS180(& some GS) does indeed have the wider wheel as shown in this pic from a new thread in the main forum. Gorgeous bike, too.