Modern Vespa

I don't think that was ever seriously in question.

No, maybe not, but the bs that flies around about countersteering has got my goat. The endless discusions seem to rank it up with transubstantiation or esp as some mystical ability. That and riders claiming that doing the hokey cokey on their floorboards like speed fuelled kangaroos in the vain belief that it helps them corner just drives me nuts. Countesteering is just what we do to get round corners - lets not over analyse it! Second rant over..

If I locked every thread where people spewed BS, all the threads on the front page would be locked except for Santiago's "weekend" thread and the Donk thread. And both of those are full of BS too, but just not on the subject of scooters.

Yeah I guess that is the real issue. Love the turkey MV logo BTW.

I look at the over-emphasis on countersteering as being akin to urging people that in order to live, they must understand the principles of inhaling oxygen and exhaling carbon dioxide. If you're alive, you're doing it, whether you're conscious of it or not. It's the same with turning and countersteering.

Brendan

+1
And when adrenalin gets in the way of the intuitive part of your brain, your goose is well and truly cooked if you can't fall back on the rote learned skill of counter steering. Recognize it, and practice it!

This.

Not this.

To state that countersteering automatically happens while cornering is correct and not the issue. That is just the physics involved.

To state (or imply) that the correct amount of CS happens automatically in all cases is wrong (and, in some cases, DEAD wrong).

If you don't apply the correct amount of CS in a dangerous situation, you will be up a shit creek quickly.

If you don't consciously practice CS (to the point of semi-automatic or muscle memory) you will not apply the correct amount to keep out of said creek.

Period...

I think my point (and the point of several others) is that we all practice countersteering every time we ride, whether we know it or not.

The correct amount of countersteer is the amount that gets you through the turn safely and without having to make radical corrections along the way. Inasmuch as most riders attempt to improve that dynamic every time they ride, they're practicing countersteering.

Trying to force the concept down people's throats is counterproductive and in some cases even dangerous.

However it is taught to all learners in the UK - without it they'd never pass the 'swerve' part of the Module 1 licence test, where it does have to be consciously applied.

Interesting.

Out of curiosity...I would love to see how they teach it and test it .

Is it practical on the bike or in the classroom on the whiteboard?

Anyone done it that can tell us about it? ( Vids would be cool.)

So your contention is that nobody could pass without a thorough, conscious understanding of the concept?

I find that very suspect. It implies that nobody in the UK learned to ride a bike prior.

They call this a swerve.

Yes, absolutely. A rider has to move over 2m to the side in a distance of 2.6m at a speed over 50kph. You'll never do that without consciously countersteering.
Diagrams:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_197120.pdf

I really can't agree with that. Not only is the swerve in the above-posted video not really very aggressive, but MSF does something very similar -- you accelerate directly at the instructor, and he signals at the last minute which direction to swerve, after which you straighten up the bike and come to an immediate stop.

Here I've been hearing about this dreaded swerve on the UK test this whole time, thinking it was something much greater than it is. I think the only part that exceeds the MSF version is that you change direction a second time. More difficult, yes, but only a little bit, since in the UK version the second swerve has plenty of room before coming to a stop.

I can.

Mark that bit of the course out and try it - you will be aware of your countersteer, promise, and someone who's not familiar with the concept won't make it. Anyone who tries it by some magic 'leaning' won't manage it - which is why the dimensions and speed were chosen.

everybody uses it not necessarily practice it.

Practicing CS has alot of merits. Finding a big open parking lot and doing large circles down to small circles. Also practicing emergency swerving is a very good thing to do. This helps build confidence between you and the machine. Lets you know that the scoot can and will respond in a predictable manner.

Folks who practice on a regular basis will be better riders in the long run when out riding.

just like shooting a gun. folks can shoot, but those who practice become better and better and can hit the bullseye on a regular basis. Those who just go out time to time and shoot are doing just that shooting.

That's the best quote of this thread.

Again, that implies that nobody in the UK ever learned to ride a bicycle, or that potholes magically don't exist, and squirrels are never present in the road. We've all learned to swerve long before we ever got to motorcycle certification.

Practicing swerving is a great thing to do. Do you need to be conscious of the physics of countersteering to do so?

No. Absolutely not. Not even a little bit.

The proof? Mere children learn to ride bicycles.

For whatever reason, I read this in Lawrence Fishburne's voice, a la "The Matrix"

learning to ride a bicycle and make it go is one thing but to get the best performance out of it takes practice.

No this is the best post of the thread!

I agree with you Jess that a knowledge of the "physics" is not necessary but knowledge of the "actions" is very necessary.

I never disputed that. I am vocally disputing the notion that you need to understand what countersteering is to practice swerving or any other motorcycle skill.

Point taken Jess.

Absolutely there is no need to understand the physics of counter steering or even that it exists - but then you get posts from people who think they can corner using their ass, or the Force or whatever.
This sort of misunderstanding is understandable(?), the dissemination of same is misleading and could be downright dangerous if taken on board as gospel by new riders.
Just saying.

One other tidbit of information that people may or may not be aware of: While riding a bicycle, especially at low speed, the act of staying upright on the bicycle is also the act of of countersteering. The constant, minute corrections made to steering are, in fact, opposite of the "intuitive" direction, inasmuch as one can intuit what it's like to ride a bicycle before having actually ever learned to do so. That is to say, when the bike starts leaning to the left, we steer left to get the front wheel back under the bike. When it leans to the right, we steer to the right.

Thus, the exact moment that each of us learned to countersteer was that specific moment when our fathers, running along beside us, let go of the seat as we pedaled madly down the path, knees skinned from previous attempts, laughing with joy as if we had just learned to fly.

Nope. Not the original thread. But I can tell by the tone that it was sincere.