Modern Vespa

That given enough input, the donkey could clearly be made to fly.

If I could just wedge that 330 in that damned beast.

Its ridiculous (dumb) to even propose riding any two wheel vehicle with "welded bars" as in fixed straight..

What does that prove except its unrideable let alone unable to corner ( and you need proof)

FYI: Real world two wheel vehicles have steering that is not fixed.

Get your push bike out and learn something. Its not even scary or difficult to do at all.

I am sitting hear reading some of these posts and am astounded by the lack of informed opinion on the part of some people that ride. Brothers and sisters that doubt the existence and magnitude of counter steering please stop embarrassing yourselves with your "the earth is flat" arguments. It takes but a second to google and slightly more time to learn.

Jess, please let him go with this. Im laughing my ass off.

Shooter did you even look at the video? You might want to.

[quote="Raiderfn31"][quote="Shooter"][quote="jess"] So , what is your explanation of the observeable fact that you lean a bicycle (scooter, MC) and the front wheel turns without input at the bar?

You can demo this phenomena at any speed you want in case like O.A.D you think it only works at walking speed.

Can you see how it may or does play a part in cornering?


stickyfrog: F*ck you and your mis- assumption that this is what I am saying: Argue or discuss to the point , not some cheap shot assumption that suits your singular paradigm.

Working CS into any discussion is like a religion to some of you guys. The O.P wanted a discussion outside CS

Be careful! You will have a hard time steering without it!

I'm an ass-steerer. Maybe when I shift my weight I move the handlebars, but it feels like I'm steering with my butt. And it feels pretty cool.

I've steered with my bum before.......

I came around a corner on the limit of adhesion, and very intelligently decided to go past that point with a conscious effort by opening the throttle just a little bit more.
The back tyre slid round, then hooked up again, and my bum promptly steered my legs, arms, and everything else attached to it over a concrete side wall and into the pits and parked trailers.

At least I think that's what happened.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluteus_maximus_muscle

...isn't this technically called counter weighting? and never to be confused with counter steering...

"Happy Thanks Giving!"

Shooter has been ejected from this topic

try that in a decreasing radius curve and you'll be lucky if you end up just in the hospital.

No assumption about rails-offing. Not really sure why that's even a question, as you can see if you re-read the quote I made that the statement he made about the rider vs the bike wasn't necessarily discussed in the section that he posted, but the section that he posted was the only portion that he posted so should theoretically be tied. That's all, no off the rails or anything. The only claims of being off the rails are being done by you here about my supposed understanding of both the article and Patrick's point. He may be right, he may not be, my only statement is that his citation does not match his point. Please tell me where I said or claimed otherwise, or claimed that he was wrong. While his claim may or may not be in conflict, it is not directly addressed.

That's no big deal, and if Patrick as a big boy wishes to explain further I'm happy to hear it. If you wish to continue to tossing around posts like the above, feel free as well, that's your right.

Meanwhile on the way home I accidentally broke the laws of physics again on a freshly replaced portion of 101 north at the 1 exit, and took my hands off the bars at 50mph in 4th on the NT and by using my legs pushed the bike from position 1 to 3 and back in my lane. I'm sure counter steering is involved, without a doubt, but not through torquing the bars.

Btw I am not saying, nor have I ever said, counter steering is not required for turning. Hope you don't think I'm saying that, because I've explicitly agreed with that on multiple occasions.

it will turn...but a very wide turn!

while you might be able to get the bike to drift side to side you haven't tried going around a sweeping corner say at 30 mph.

try that on a decreasing radius curve....and pray.

That's a lame defense, Oz. Even by your tortured standards.

Done.

I'm fully on-board with the counter steering concept I would consider the use of your ass to turn would just be counter steering with your ass. But check this out:

Uhhhhh now why would I do something like that???

How predictable.
Jess says I said something I didn't say.
I say, didn't say that but feel free to show me where I did.
Rather than address that fact, the above follows.

"Done", indeed. When in doubt, ad hominem, I guess..?

Again, hell no. No one is advocating that though. Weird.

This was taken on my ride to Cape Town in 1961. For a long part of that stretch I was sitting at the back of the saddle, with a sandwich in one hand and a coke in the other, steering by my ass. Couldn't say whether I was countersteering though!

Mike

You implied it. Which is kind of funny, really, since you were bent out of shape about what you yourself perceived as something that Patrick implied, and went to great lengths to "dispute".

Onya Mike!
Yep, those roads are good for morning tea breaks! Got a couple near here too.

Well reading all these peeps that say it can't be done and its impossible, You are in for a Shock the first time you have a passenger.
You are in for one hell of a shock and possibly a serious crash, seeing as you refuse to accept what is common knowledge to a rider with experience.
When your passenger is looking over your right shoulder in a turn then suddenly shifts weight and looks over your left shoulder sending the bike off the corner I want to hear you say "Its not possible" and "its not really happening" as you cut off road through the bushes because of the weight shift.
I have done this to people for fun as a passenger and anyone that states it is not possible is doing nothing more than proving they are a novice rider with not much in the way of real world experience on a bike.
Mega.

Holy shit. I just saw this. If I did this I would probably die. Heh.

I don't think anyone is arguing that weight distribution is NOT important in a turn. It clearly is. Everyone who has ever moved their weight to the inside in a really sharp corner knows that.

The only question is whether you can initiate a turn with weight alone. Some empirical evidence says that it can be done, though to what degree and at what speed is still open. I would guess that doing it on 8-inch wheels, for instance, is probably pretty easy, given the lack of spinning mass and the (probable) speed involved.

I think what should be explained is that the counter steering does not necessarily have to come from hands on steering on the handle bars. A well balanced machine will track straight with hands off, but the fork must be able to have rotational freedom in the headset. Steering can be acomplished with weight shift as long as the fork has rotational freedom. A bike cannot be ridden at all without it.

Assumptions:
1. In all cases we are talking about a bike with a steering tube that is free to rotate.
2. In cases that mention "fixed bars" it is referring to a second of bars that are mounted rigid to the frame but the original bars and steering tube are still free to rotate.

Nomenclature:
"Steering" means effectively controlling the movement of the vehicle. To support this definition I give you: Now here I'll need the help of someone well versed in cognitive science because I don't know the name of this logical fallacy:

We seem to have started with the assertion that one could steer a motorcycle/scooter by using ones butt or feet.

The counter claim was made in fact the movement of butt and feet was changing forces on the arms and therefor acting directly on the steering tube/fork. This was demonstrated in a video of a motorcycle equipped with a set of rigid bars (still leaving the stock bars free to rotate) and the rider shifting his weight around trying to influence the path of the bike.

This was countered with video of someone riding a bicycle without hands. While the person did a fine job of navigating wide flat suburban streets and even a cul-de-sac, I would not consider his performance to be up to the level of "steering" used at the outset. Same for the video of the motorcyclist riding without hands.

Yes you can affect the movement of the bike with your butt, feet, maybe even by thinking of butterflies, but it's not "steering" as we set at the start. The wikipedia page on the dynamics involved is quite good and even goes into the bit about riding without hands. As an engineer the bits of information that I find important are not "if there is an effect" but "how large is the effect". This lets me know if I need to bother with the math or if I can use "engineering judgment" to move on to things that have a much larger influence.

I'm sure I messed up the whole affect/effect thing as well but I'll stand by my assertion that you can't "steer" the bike with anything but action on the bars. If you want proof we can go for a ride, I get bars, you don't.

Interesting. Your definition doesn't fit my definition of steer.

By your definition my original statement doesn't stand, and I would not agree with it.

My statement is about directly impacting the direction of the bike with movement or force not necessarily originating from torque on the bars, including application of torque against the frame from the feet.

I'd never argue that steering control is as good as that from direct application to the bars. There are obvious capacities for refined movement one can do with bars they cannot do using feet or ass.

If the definition of "steer" is simply "control the direction / vector of the vehicle" then yes. If its more rigid and includes the quality of control with the baseline set at "with your hands" then no.

The video of the hands free motorcycling clearly demonstrates control, clearly demonstrates it can be initiated without input from the bars, but does not clearly demonstrate the precision you are asking for in your definition.

I'd argue though that it also demonstrates that control can be accomplished in a very clear way that has nothing to do with butterflies

Must be a slow night, Nothing on TV. What was the name of that guy that went by Indian something. A biker that rode standing up on the seat with no hands on bars. He's dead now. Did it one two many times, OCC did a bike in his name.

One more point I must point out is incorrect is this misunderstanding of "countersteering" by more than one poster.
Countersteering must and can only be done with input on the handlebars.
Countersteering is an effect where a rider in mid turn turns the direction of the front wheel away from the direction of the corner, this will increase the lean angle of the bike motorcycle or scooter, the turning radius will decrease and you will turn sharper. This effect requires more throttle input to stay on the chosen line otherwise the bike will turn too sharply and cross into the oncoming lane or shoulder of the road depending which way your turning. Throttle input (depending on horsepower and RPM) will ad to the inertia to make the vehicle go in a straight line in effect helping to hold the chosen line around the corner.

This countersteering can be accomplished by either a push on the inside bar or a pull on the outside bar or both.
Countersteering has minimal effect below 40 kmh or over 250 kmh.
As was pointed out to me some years ago, you do it without even knowing your doing it and once you realize now that it has been pointed out to you it will be more apparent to you when your doing it next time.
Mega.

Not true. The front wheel *has* to turn 'the opposite way' even if almost imperceptibly, for the two-wheeled vehicle to initiate a lean. This is irrespective of whether this is by direct input to the bars (controlled) or by a weight-shift - 'knocking' the steering tube sideways wrt the contact point of the front wheel on the ground (not so controlled). The effect works at all speeds (even at a standstill as any cyclist waiting at lights can tell us), just as Wilbur Wright noted and explained way back when.

I would have thought that as well but in my 30+ years experience on motorcycles and my six months on a scooter I have found the scooter responds slower than the motorcycle when swerving around potholes in the city using the handle bars and weight shift.

I attribute this to the fact that the motorcycle is between the legs and is more responsive to weight shift due to the fact that you lean the bike over from side to side just with movement at the waist. (but steer).
Whereas on a scooter its more akin to sitting on a kitchen chair, with your but perched atop and your legs having a lesser effect thus its the upper body having more effect in the weight shift as compared to a motorcycle.

This in effect would take longer to respond initiating movement of the scooter. Its the same effect it just takes more time for the scooter to respond than a motorcycle.

In contrast sitting perched atop the scooter your But Steer will be akin to a hinge effect where it should be possible to get the scooter (that weighs less) to lean faster and have a quicker response time although less accurate in precise direction control. Although it is possible and fun to have the scooter/motorcycle leaned over and still going in a straight line due to the fact your body is a counter balance on the other side of center line, thus enforcing the point of weight steering is alive and well whether you do it with your But or Chest, or even heave your whole body into it.

It is also important to note that with men their central mass balance point is in their chest whereas a woman has her central mass balance point located at her waist, this may affect the effect felt in But Steering between the sexes.

Debate on fellow scooterists
Mega.

This is Not true as any motorcycle racer can attest to at a certain speed(close to 300 kmh) countersteering no longer has any effect.

And at speeds above 40 kmh the effect of countersteering is magnified substantially. Until the vehicle reaches that point where countersteering no longer has any effect.

Thus by comparison countersteering has minimal effect below 40 kmh.
You are more likely to fall over trying to countersteer at low speed.
Try it, just not on my scoot.
Mega.

Yes, but you don't look nearly so silly if you just steer using the bars

I'm all in favour of (other) people riding along and wiggling their behinds. There's so little fun on today's crowded roads.

this post is pointless...my own fault for reading it...5min gone forever