Modern Vespa

As I recall, some rare Rally 180s were made with Autolube, but I can't find the reference. Now I see a pic of a 1970 'Sprint' with an LML motor in it & wonder if that oil gauge was original(& choke)? I've just never seen it, but there are so many odd Piaggio model variations I was/am unaware of.

This one is supposed to be a US Sprint survivor, all original except for the engine replacement. Cool rack regardless.

If it is a 1970 Sprint then the tail light is correct.
Headset is correct.
Cowls have the creases all the way back like they should be.
The oil sight glass hole can easily be added to the frame and any P-series gas tank w/oil tank will fit. But I have seen 1971 GTR models in the USA with auto-lube. This makes the sight glass hole in the frame possible, but you'll know for sure when you look at the gas tank. It should be flat on top with a metal oil reservoir. If it is, I'm guessing it may be that way originally.
Find a P200 engine for it and swap out the quadrant.
10" wheels are stock for Sprint.

That bike looks the shit. I hate LML engines. So fucking ugly and yellow looking.

Yes. Most U.S. import large frames were equipped with autolube after 1969.

Shame the UK market never got any of this autolube in the old days.
Not even the early P ranges had it . . .

Thanks for the help, I suspected as much. Knew all else was legit, but not the autolube detail. So... injected THREE port motors exist? or just two port?

'Find a P200 engine for it and swap out the quadrant.' Pffft.. Rally 180 motor, don't gotta swap shit. It IS tempting dammit




OUCH!

They do exist, in fact most oil-injected Sprint motors would be three-port.

The irony is that the 1970 Italian-made, US-market bike is set up for auto-lube, but the brand new 2010 (or whatever year) Indian motor "upgrade" is premix only.

Why, why, why do people buy the Lml engines for a replacement engine, when there are better Italian ones around? Rant done. Nice looking scooter,anyway.

I thought LML's were better build than Piaggios?
Or is that just the frames & paint jobs?

Wow. Don't even know how to respond to that.

Some casual Vespaclueless guy goes to shop & finds his motor is toasted. Asks for quickest & least expensive 'legitimate' solution. It sounds expensive enough to be proper, so 'Done Deal'. But I agree and consequentially wonder if a Rally 180 motor would 'ruin' this nice bike? Suppose a correct motor could be put in anytime if one was available.

I like the rack & that unused rear attachment for cowl guards, never seen that! He used screws & acorn nuts to 'fix' some of the floor trim, so he did try to keep it up.

I think it needs the bigger horn & wonder if the speedo color is right?

And why dont you know?
Forget about the engine for a minute . . . i only asked.
As far as i'm aware, Piaggia are turning crap P-range vespas with shit paint jobs . . . not even finished right.
LML's are supposedly turning out better quality gauged frames with far superior paint jobs.
It's as if Piaggio are churning out P-range scoots coz they feel they have to . . . because LML are . . . but can't even bother to match them on quality.
As for the engines?
I don't know . . . its why i've asked.
There has been plenty said in the UK about Piaggio v LML regarding the latest build quality.
I'm an old skool Rally 200 owner and am not interested in buying a new P-range.
But from what i've heard, if i was in the market for a new P-range style, i'd go LML.

The speedo should match the handle grips & panel rubbers.
And it does look like it needs the bigger horn . . . . good luck on trying to find a proper one at reasonable cost . . . rip off prices everywhere for one.

We have never heard anyone ever say that. We have only ever heard -- and experienced firsthand -- the extreme opposite.

Can't speak for the quality of the brand-new 2011-2012 PX models, as they are not available here, and we've yet to see gray-market imports of these. But all of the LML paint, trim, "fit and finish" and miscellaneous components over here is junk compared to Piaggio stuff from the mid-2000s and earlier.

Don't forget that most LMLs here are Stellas, which are supposedly made to better quality control standards than at least the local-market destined LMLs. The paint jobs are all orange peel in some spots and see-through in others, the rubber breaks down and falls off after six months, the electrical crimps look and perform like they were done by an eight-year-old, etc.

At the end of the day, it's hard to beat the casting and component quality of original Piaggio stuff from the era that this Sprint was built. That is why it is so sad to see a bike in as good shape as this one with, not only an LML motor, but one with fewer features than the 40-year-old motor it is replacing.

There used to be a moped shop in here in Los Angeles that had a Scooterworks account. They didn't really work on scooters, so they would talk everyone who brought in a Vespa into getting an LML motor instead of doing simple operations on the original motor. That is how 900-mile, original paint Rally 200s end up with non-injected LML 150 motors. Even saw one in an SS180 one time. It's just sad.

Thanks Bar, NOW I feel worse about the new motor...

Confirm about the SPEEDO? Black w/ white lettering ?

Fortunately I have a spare Rally 200 horn, so that would be easy to fix. Who has an injected Sprint motor & how many pounds of gold would you trade it for? Or maybe for same, but a virginal non-injected Rally 180 beauty?

But that Rally motor in there would be fine with me, just all that messy mixing & extra hole in the frame.

Also, would that pipe work well on the Rally?

Bar Italia . . . I totally agree . . you'd be pushed hard to find anything of relatively good quality these days.
It seems to be a throw away environment nowadays.

No-one can argue on the build quality of the old vespas . . . days gone by when machines were produced as machines to last . . .

As for the modern stuff (not the dreaded twist 'n' goes . . . lets not even go there on those plastic monstrosities), I would expect Piaggio to outclass any of their "past joint venture" partners.
But does it really make sense that when the joint venture was still a "good partnership", Piaggio allowed LML to help the Piaggio factories along when they were struggling to cope with demand?

LML's were originally produced as Vespas and Piaggio sanctioned that.
It's only when they fell out that LML's became LML's if you know what i mean.
Otherwise they were still Vespas.
The Stella "name" only exists because of the fall out between both companies.

To Tierney:
Educate me here . . . i'm pleading real ignorance & not being argumentative.
What is it that you think makes LML engines inferior to Piaggios engines?
I realise the castings are different on later models because they incorporated a reed valve . . . .
I think LML have actually carried on the P-range Vespa class & modernised it . . . i'm not talking about the 4T's here - they are a different breed altogether (& fair play to LML to show initative) . . . this is about the 2T's and the reed valve they have decided to incorporate which we "tuning scooterists" always yearned.
Is it the reed valve engines with their new castings that are not up to scratch?
Is there a problem withn the Piaggio sanctioned "pre reed valve" engines?

Have LML always produced crap engines from dodgy pressings that are now showing their true colours now they aren't produced under the Piaggio umbrella?

Or is it just pure snobbery?

I personally don't buy into the "original engine / original scoot" scenario.
I was lucky enough to source empty Rally engine casings when i took on my latest Rally build from scratch.
If i couldn't have sourced a Rally engine, i'd have quite easily fitted a P2 lump, albeit with a matching Rally kickstart & flywheel cowling.

Phew . . . .

As for auto lube in a Sprint . . . you Americans thinks yourselves lucky . . . we in the UK had none of that luxury until well into the P-range . . . even our first P-range scoots never had it . . . this came years later.
Strange how Vespa "purity" in one country is so far apart from another.
The original OP wants auto lube in his Sprint.
Purists in this country would cry foul if an oil sight glass appeared under the choke . . . it wouldnt be right !!

Weird.

Only thing that I know SPECIFIC relative to FAILURE is anecdotal and it's mostly about bearing quality on SOME(?) builds coupled with a LESS CAPABLE crankshaft that may contribute to the bearing problem.

The speedo? & that interesting pipe?

But FINE to politely discuss /debate Piaggio/LML here, seems appropriate. Be civil as has been so far, no problem with me & possibly informative. Just one thing, I KNOW aluminum castings long time professionally & both Piaggio & LML have made good & bad ones. But the odds favor Piaggio, IMO, if the motor is old. to add underlined correction & emphasize my request(s) that was largely respected for which I thank those who have. I feel we've self policed rather well here when really needed. Nothing above here bothers me(my thread) one iota, except the notion of going sideways to a P motor, & that WAS meant to be helpful, just a no brainer(autolube) & a lot easier than anything more original, like the rest of the bike is. It is OK with 2 ppl here so far & works fine for thousands of other ppl. It's debatable & we're trying to do that politely. Scooter stuff. Right?

Nope. Reread. Like you I was skeptical & wanted to know if it actually was a Sprint. Bodge radar... false alarm.

Ok . . . I'll go with that.

Meant to say 'Only thing I know...' and hope others more knowledgeable than me will try to add from their experience or personal hearsay. I know NOTHING about LMLs except I have a new smallframe LML 'Sensation' 125cc 3 port motor that works fine & quality seems comparable to my Primavera motor.

And here's my last picture. For now.


Lol, you can tell he's a Harley guy. Love the original run in sticker(if it is, natch)

Just re-read.
Doesn't own.
Was sussing it out.
Never heard of an auto lube Sprint but that's the US market for you.

seems legit, i bet the previous owner just went on a accessory frenzy at [redacted]

Black rubbers on the panels & black handle bar grips should equal black speedo
If you want a white speedo, go with grey rubbers.
It should be year dependant on when the scooter was born . . . at the end of the day . . . match speedo with rubbers, it'll look better.

And for the purists here . . . . i've got a digital SIP speedo ready to fit into my 1976 Rally 200 . . . it'll glow in the dark with a clock to show when im late for work and also has a rev counter . . . along with a digital display of how fast as fuck im going.
My rubbers are black (including legshield trim) and so is my speedo, levers, brake pedal, hubs, wheels, flywheel cowling, selector cover, stripes . . . . . it looks good . . . colour coded . . . no mis-match.
Just dont mix a grey speedo with black rubbers . . . it'll look daft.

So, back to the original point. The speedometer, horn size, auto-lube, headset and trailer light are correct and consistent with this being an early '70s US-market bike. The black grips (with '60s shield markings) are very wrong , as is the black cowl rubber. Also, the double legshield trim and other stainless "ADD-TO-CART" items certainly cheapen the look, but do not necessarily mean that this scoot should be passed on.

Oh, the irony. Douchey vintage guy talks smack about plastic bikes out of one side of his mouth while wondering out loud if LML engines are disliked because of snobbery.

(Just a friendly reminder that this is still Modern Vespa, and I'm still paying the bills around here...)

I have a Sprint Veloce frame.

They cut the hole with the obvious intention of adding a P range autolube engine.

It also has a square headlight. Which I have never heard of for a Sprint V.

Thankyou very much! Could you post a pic of the correct grips, please? Hey, only ONE cowl has the wrong rubber, heh heh.

So speedo is OK? It's identical to my '74 Prim, looks so much NEWER, but miles do make more sense.

It's about style . . .

LML engines fit straight into any old classic Vespa and no one would notice as long as it was done right if the kickstart & flywheel cowling were changed to suit.
I stand by what i say about the modern twist n go vespas - thats why im in the NSM section.
I've never been elsewhere in this forum and wouldnt slag them off elsewhere becuase if i did i'd be trolling, which i dont do.
This is the NSM section and is the only place i post.

'

Too true. Walked into Scooterwest down in SD last week wearing the cool X-ray skull and engine t-shirt made and sold by one of our members...

second thing the guys say is, "Huh, did he realize that is an LML engine? It has the little bump up here on the top of the engine."

I just checked an image of the t-shirt and also googled LML engine images.
It turns out that Steven has used the image from SIP's web site.

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/engine+lml+for+vespa+p125x_78005700

What is that bump on the flywheel cowling?
The cowling looks like a classic Vespa style but has the bump on it . . ??

Nebule, It's not snobbery, at least not in my case. The LML engine at the very least is a ticking time bomb. The lower end bearings are crap, the upper needle bearings are crap, the end gap on the rings are usually wrong, the rings themselves are crap(too brittle). In fact, all the bearings are crap. The insulation on the wires can't really take heat and turn to a crumbly mess within 10,000 miles or less. The connections are awful. Any of the rubber bits tend to go crumbly as well after a short while.
Having said all this, I guess it is easier just to buy a LML lump and drop it in. But with a little effort one can usually find the right engine.
If you can't believe any of what I wrote, check out Stellaspeed and look at the problems they have with their scoots.
The Stellas aren't bad, it's just that they come with built in faults. I must admit I owned one for a few years because I thought that it would be more reliable that an older scooter. Lord, was I wrong, and I freely admit it. But that's also how I know about these faults first hand.

Voodoo, I must apologize, I did not intend to dissuade you, or highjack this thread. As I said before, it is a really nice looking scooter, I'd buy it in a minute if the price was right.

Tierney . . . thats exactly what i was looking for with regards to the engine . . . . that explanation clears it up.

Cheers.

Very interesting and informative guys.

And, quite frankly, you can send a real Vespa lump to Gickspeed, Hot Rod Al, or one of the other mechanics on this site and get back a better engine than OEM for a similar price.

For a few dollars more you can even get some extra ponies installed.

Not necessary, you are merely complying with wishes. BTW what are opinions of the 'right price' for this one? I saw this as well PX 166cc Enhanced Durability Engine

I've observed that most vintage ppl tend to do this(smacktalk plastic) occasionally for no good reason and no special doucheyness is needed. Shit just happens.

An enhanced durability engine is not that hard or unusual. Some parts in both motors are "good enough" or even not good enough in some cases.

Using better quality bearings and seals, heavy duty clutch parts, as well as balancing key parts like the crank and flywheel will likely give more service life than a stock engine from the factory, LML or Vespa.

You can specify those things when dealing with a top builder, or just give them a generic instruction like: I want it bulletproof as possible... or, I want more HP... and they will lead you to a service package that will meet those needs.

Speaking of cases, etc - is $300 a good deal on a set of brand new 3 port Piaggio cases? These would be 'correct' for this bike(except the electric start capability)? I can't tell if it's an oiler or not.
Piaggio genuine part: 199574, 248773, 174494

On eBay now

It's puffery. It's a show for the other vintage guys that they can talk the talk. The same kind of thing occurs in many, many settings, where people quickly establish cliques and proceed to justify why their group is superior to [_insert_other_group_here_]. The story of the Sneetches was very much an illustration of this most childish behavior.

The funny part is that Mr. Douchey appears to be clueless about the very well-known problems with LML engines, which should indicate to the rest of you that he's 100% poser. The smack-talking is just a lame attempt to fit in. I'm a little disappointed that none of you caught on to that or called him on it.

More irony: plastic or not, the engine on a modern Vespa is about twenty gazillion times better-made than any LML engine on the planet, so Mr. Douchey is, well, pretty douchey.

Finally, while this may be NSM, the service is still provided by Modern Vespa, and I will happily apply the loving mallet of correction to those who forget that.

<-- Petty Tyrant