Modern Vespa

As RGConner has mentioned, you can send an engine out, and get a better one back. More points for Vespa. As far as the reworked LML engine you listed, I have no experience with. Quite a few rebuild their lumps back up with a mazzy crank and replace the other bearings, seals and top ends with something better. That only leaves the electrical side of things to sort out. And the reeds and carb. Honestly though, most people have a fair amount of luck with their LML motor replacement because they don't really put all that many miles on the engine. Then they get bored and sell it and move on to some thing else, knitting, flying kites, whatever. Anywhoo, if you think the price is right, I would not let a LML motor stop me from making a deal. Mean time, I wonder where all those vespa engines are that were pulled when the LML went in? Sure would not mind getting my hands on a few, someone must be hoarding.

Jess,

Folks here really do need to seriously lighten up !!!



My main interest is in pre P-range classic Vespas . . . Rally 200's etc . . . so all this talk of LML engines is something i'm not familiar with - hence why i asked above - i did not preach "my wsidom" . . . i merely asked what the problem was with LML engines to which i was eventually given a reply . . . and i acknowledged that.
You can throw insults at me all you like if it makes you feel better.
It's not something i do . . i find it . . well . . . childish . . and will not get dragged into a slagging match with you.
This forum seems to be full of it . . . members constantly arguing & slagging each other.
I seem to have hit a raw nerve here by mentioning my thoughts on modern vespas (post P-range) . . . . thats my opinion and i dont see why the "opinion police" should blast me for that.
Like i said, i would never consider going over to the modern section to slag off their interest . . . that wouldnt be right . . . and I'm not a troll.
I know it's your site and i am a lot better behaved that a lot of people on here.
I'm now off to google this "douchey" word that you like to use so much.

Peace.

Davie.

It's funny. After being online nearly every day at MV for the last seven years, I've slowly picked up on some common phrases that go with specific personalities. This is a fairly common refrain from people who have just been called out as offensive or obnoxious. It is almost always spoken by someone who has failed to observe the proper decorum for their present surroundings, often subsequently refusing to acknowledge that they themselves might actually be in the wrong. This term is another one heard with regularity from people who are unaware of just what complete douchebags they are. It roughly translates to "you can't tell me I can't have an opinion". And indeed, I can't tell you you can't have an opinion. I can tell you that at Modern Vespa, you are a guest. When a guest fails to recognize that his behavior is unacceptable AND then goes on to insist that he's done nothing wrong (usually with insulting phrases like "opinion police"), he will promptly be shown the door.

Just thought you should know, for future reference in some other forum. You're not likely to be commenting here further.

and then get the a fore mentioned mallet? no thanks.

Nobody is saying you have to be a douchebag to the posers, but you guys didn't even blink. And this is a consistent theme: poser shows up on a vintage bike, talks smack and doesn't know jack shit, and you all give him a pass because, well... he's on a vintage bike.

Kind of lame.

I find it best to let peeps say what they want, and let the moderators do their job. or not.

That's not an entirely unreasonable position to take, though I think there's room for the community (that's you guys in NSM) to help shape the tone of the conversation, if you so choose. In the rest of the forum, when someone steps out of line, other members do often call them on it, politely, suggesting other ways that they could get their point across without being a douchebag.

I wonder why I rarely see that happen in NSM?

I would venture to say that on the other parts on Modern Vespa scootering is part of a lifestyle . Look at the varied amount of subjects discussed - from helmets to turkey soup. And there is nothing wrong with that. On the NSM site, it is like a religion with some, passive sometimes, fanatical other times. Many that are involved with these old scooters, (or Harley, Triumphs, Bmws, etc...), feel as if they need to justify their outlook to the point of excluding all others. It's a bit sad, and naive. And also keeps you from enjoying a different group of people.

Well put, I agree with Tierney


Back to the unanswered questions if anybody is still interested in discussing old Vespas,

1) would that 3 port case set be right for this bike if I disregard the elec start hole.

2) what is a reasonable value for the bike, assuming the LML motor works OK?

Let's try to keep the irrelevant bickering & name calling out, mmmkay? Thanks.

Because wrestling with pigs gets you dirty, and makes the pig happy. Trying to dispel the deep seated misconceptions here are just not worth the effort.

Better not to feed the trolls.

Back to the beginning of this thread (1st comment actually) are there really US market GTRs? Never seen or heard of one.

1) No. Those are three port PX cases. The early Sprint Veloce models used a different flywheel side bearing and different crank than the P-Series. You could build it up, but it would be very expensive and you would still have the "wrong" engine, if you know what I mean. If you are willing to rebuild anyway and don't mind the look of the electric start cases, you might as well start with the LML motor and just replace the problem components, i.e. crank, bearings, seals, maybe top-end, etc. While you're at it, put a proper kickstart quadrant in there so you can run a real large frame kick lever.

2) Can't answer questions about the value without actually seeing it, and that's pretty much up to how much the buyer likes it and "needs" it anyway.

Both of these statements are, on their face, sensible. When examined in a broader scope, though, they both leave something to be desired.

When a fight breaks out at a bar, you can

(a) Join the fray
(b) Try to defuse the situation without actually joining the fray
(c) Run and hide
(d) Call the cops

(a) is largely what ScooterBBS did for years, until the air became so toxic that only a few specially-adapted individuals could breathe it.

(b) through (d) is what happens elsewhere on this forum.

NSM is largely limited to (c) and (d), though usually (c) and not very much (d). And on the face of it, that's not so bad, unless you actually care about the community and want to improve the general discourse therein.

Realistically, reliance on (c) and (d) means either (1) that there does not exist a sufficiently critical mass of adults who care about the quality of the community to try to do something about it, or (2) that improving the community discourse isn't something that the NSM community really wants.

And I'm not entirely sure which it is. Maybe a combination of the two. But either way, it definitely implies that NSM (and the population of online vintage enthusiasts in general) isn't really a community so much as a population, as in prison population. The moderators may be able to reduce the incidence of y'all shivving each other by throwing people into solitary confinement once in a while, but we can't improve the tone unless enough of you step up to improve the situation on your own.

In short, statements like the ones quoted above are copouts. Either you guys step up, or continue to be little more than prisoners infrequently patrolled by moderators.

This is turning to a very informative topic. Learning.
Lynn

1) Thought probably so, I really don't want to use something that 'foreign' to the bike and will hunt for a Sprint motor or use my Rally motor until I find or build a good 3 port original type.

2) LOL, so true. Well I DO have a few bikes, but have wanted an older 'premium' model in ORIGINAL paint in that is GOOD condition. Those have ALWAYS been ~twice or more what I could pay because they're so hard to find. So I've settled for flawed bikes that needed a lot of work and I've learned a lot about what I CAN'T do.

I can't do what YOU do, so while I love them dearly, mine are still all "2nd rate" . Guess this Sprint still has a problem, but it is one I CAN fix and for under 2K, it does look like I "needed" bad enough.

Thanks VERY much for the STRAIGHT reply, BA. I've TRIED to keep this thread from continuing into a trainwreck and REALLY appreciate your response being on the topic. I hope those with any axes to grind will do it elsewhere as it's disruptive. This has been an interesting & informative discussion mostly, with NO yelling and I appreciate that.

What is it that makes the 3 port better than a 2 port anyway? And as far as oil injection is obviously the benefit is not having to mix gas but are there other benefits or is it just the gas mixing?
Thanks
Lynn

More like an insane asylum population... some are a little less crazy than others, some are really good at not taking their pills.

And you can call it a cop out, that is fine, but it is not, it is sparing you the the personal attacks that come with standing up against expert trolls. I can take out as much as I can dish out, but it is hardly makes for a heartwarming event.

The other issue is that there still is a significant population of them here, and they work together. Some even have sufficient knowledge to deposit a few gems in their crap piles, giving them some credibility to work past if you try to stand up to them.

And there is so much knowledge out there about these older Vespa's that are not so much wrong, but a different way of approaching the same problem.

You can read an example of this and see the dynamic in action, if you have your BS galoshes on, by reading this thread:

Drilled front hub.

I find that in my management of my real life employees that the best policy is to lead by example.

If I have someone who is not being socially correct in their behavior then the three step rule is used. Verbal warning, write up, release. If the employee shows the correct change then with no other correction needed in 3 months the entire matter is dropped. forever.

My observation in this forum is that it has a much less tolerant policy. And the fact that if the only management that is instituted is the "prison system" policy, that almost guarantees certain amounts of shanking.

Some people cannot handle criticism without internalizing the critique instead of adapting change. And that is where the acting out of feelings is demonstrated.

In short, treat us like shit and thats what you get in return. I would guess the majority of the members here just want a well lit forum to discuss our crazy desire to keep our machines on the road with an occasional discourse on other topics. We are generally respectful of others and want the same in turn.

But, a no tolerance policy increases the fear of banning, and instead of encouraging good behavior it provokes all or nothing statements and attitude. I am sure there is a good example of this situation in a Psychology journal somewhere.

I am not trying to insult the moderation staff or Jess in particular. I am just stating that I think the management of Not So Modern could use a little more "speak softly and carry a big stick" policy. In fact I like all the moderators here and have agreed mostly with what I have seen of their practices of moderating our forum. But not always. thats my .02 cents. Feel free to thumbs down me, but at least think about it.

Edit to say I can & do appreciate the need for well thought out replies, even when off topic. See: NO yelling anywhere. I've seen a 125 TS here, but not sure if it was imported by Piaggio. I don't think it had holes for turn signals filled. This is a rare model much like the GTR as it continues the model series : VNL1T, VNL2T and finally VNL3T



It IS quite similar to the Sprint, small 3 port motor included, but shares the Rally's glovebox & spare tire location. No autolube on this one, although the others I've seen did have it.

three ports will give more air/fuel mix to the piston thus more power. the autolube is better mainly because it insures the proper mix at higher and lower rpm's. it dispenses oil at a rate that is more ideal to the condition the engine is running at. examples, if you are going at top speed it auto lube is giving more oil and lubing the top end at a higher rate. and opposite at the lower rpm's. with premix, the rate is the same across all levels of RPM's. so its rich at idle and lean at top speed. understand?

And therein lies the exact problem with this population: standing up to the people who are out of line (trolls is definitely the wrong word) equates only to attacking them back, rather than trying to defuse the situation.

That's it, exactly.

PLEASE drop it

Thanks JJ that is a very good understandable explanation. I guess the 3 port is just the upgraded newer Version as the same with the autolube. Seems the scooter enthusiest went for many many years being satisfied or perhaps more along the line of being content until the new proved came along.
Lynn

Newer and Upgraded version = 1970+ LOL

good. im glad. thats what this place is all about.

Some history: In the early days of MV, when it was largely just General Discussion, we set a tone by example and that tone has largely carried forward through to today. In the first couple of years of MV, I banned maybe three people, total. Even today, we ban far more spammers than actual people, and that's only the spammers that actually get through our defenses.

The NSM crowd initially consisted only of a few MV members who had vintage bikes but disliked ScooterBBS's toxicity. Those few members were, of course, quickly overrun by much of the ScooterBBS crowd when ScooterBBS became unusable, and those people largely brought their customs to NSM. Those people lacked any sense of the MV tone, and in fact probably actively disagreed with it. The "prison system" policy seems fairly appropriate when the group of people who show up in my living room are largely made up of individuals who have spent years vilifying MV and everything it stands for. This is a reciprocal relationship. Act like shit and get treated thusly. Your incentive for improving the discourse of the community should be self evident. What's my incentive for treating you guys differently? You may want the same thing in return, but in NSM there seems to be only two possible responses when people aren't respectful to each other: snipe at each other, or say nothing. And it is this specific point that I'm trying to make, that you all can actually step up and take the middle option of demanding better from each other. This doesn't mean insult the person, this means bringing them down off the ledge. Except that the rest of the forum manages to stick up for their community standards (mostly) and they're probably getting more scrutiny from the moderators on a day-to-day basis. So why not NSM?

MANY of us are trying.

Some, yes. I used the term "critical mass" earlier, and it's really an apt term. Until a critical mass of adults are willing to stick up for the community in order to improve it, there will be mostly silence when someone acts out.

Why is this an argument every month?

Because nothing's changed.

Anymore photos?

Side on?

Top view?

Yes sir, lots of big pics. Try clicking that link there, the 'On eBay now' down at the bottom. If the shipping to Australia won't kill you, seems like a nice set.

I read this thread with interest tho i dont have a traditional bike,

but i have thought i wouldnt mind my Vespa panels being plastic,
then it wouldnt go rusty ,in our very wet climate ,we to rust proof from new ,or if bought second hand try to repair the rust,

my last 125 scooter a piaggio x7 was plastic i had no problems with and no rust,
which is possibly some thing you lads dont have problems with

LoL, for many here rust is our friend & companion. We correctly refer to it as 'PATINA' though & deny that it has found its way into the depths our vintage all metal contraptions.

We lads usually admire the (mostly) rustfreeness of our more modern Vespa brethren however. We respect that they are still mostly steel where it counts. What parts of your X7 body were plastic, isn't that more of a motorcycle than a scooter anyway?

But let's talk Sprints. And LML motors. Please.

I have wanted to make a pair of acrylic panels for about a year now. There is a place in LA that will expeariment with me. They have a plastic form moulding machine that will handle 4x8 sheets. Anyway, great idea. Don't discount the power of 2 port though. I have seen a couple 2 ports with kit that will spank some bottom. ASC offers a great 2 port kit. I have seen it in action. A friend of mine ran one for a long time and loved every trouble free minute of it.

Piaggio-branded bikes (i.e. not Vespa) are pretty much universally all-plastic bodies with a tubular frame. That goes for the X7 as well.

CONFIRMED. plastic fairings on a tube frame



Looks like when they tuck the tank under the seat it's a 'scooter'? They may say so, looks like a motorcycle to me, my nephew has a Yamaha that looks like that. Oh wait, this one has an auto trans like most newer scooters too I suppose. I see where the motor is too.

Nevermind, call it what you wish as long as it's not Vespa, please.
I LIKE that ALL Vespas' bodies are mostly metal monocoque(did I get that right?), unlike this ride. I just bought a hybrid piece of metal & plastic that does NOT completely violate this. Body pressed by Bajaj, and tube subframe in the back covered by plastic fanny and no shifting allowed.

Thanks Jess, now we're talkin' scoots.

Step-through frame = scooter

lol here we go.

sez you!

lol, I DO understand, You're RIGHT(technically), hence my comment regarding putting tank under seat so you CAN step thru. OK, I don't get to make my own definitions, just let me keep my own perceptions. To me it's NOT a real scoot. It's a scootercycle or something, with most of the characteristics of certain modern motercycles. It LOOKS like it wants to be one.

I don't have to call it a scooter though, I called it a 'ride'.