Modern Vespa

V Yup. Sticky anything with the word rabbit in it is ok by me. Fleece if you look at the new bikes coming out nest year they have used some of the technology and design for their new bike/bikes. The Primavera looks like a cross between the LX and the 946 IMHO. I'd rather whine about the rain that's supposed to happen today and i have to ride in it. What i go thru for my friends

"This is not the scooter you are looking for"

Vyatka,

From what I've heard, the Russians couldn't even make tasty mints!

Yes, Yes, Yes. Time to more on...

Wow! This thread turned into a real time-killing page turner. This is why I like being a lurker, hiding in the shadows, watching as fresh meat gets thrown out and the carnivores . . . No! Wait! I meant to say nice thread.
Aviator, you shouldn't tease like that.

You would think Piaggio would get the message. Over 200 posts on the subject of how overpriced the 946 is over the past 13 months, on one thread alone.

And the idiots in Pontedera still put it on the market. No wonder my Sicilian Nonna held mainlanders in contempt.

Happy New year, everyone.

They're getting a conflicting message from a weightier source: the cash register.

1.check this out -100+ years ago.
2. Go to Brighton Beach biggest Russian store "International Food Store", they have everything you can imagine and BEYOND. Don't go today, it is mass hangover over there.

The price of any commodity is based on what the market will stand. Very few items outside of foodstuffs have a market price fundamentally based on the cost of production and transport, plus profit margin. The "what the market will stand" factor comes more into play when you have a product that is based more on form than function. If you can make any product that is regarded as being "stylish" or even a style icon you increase desirability dramatically. The more desirable something is the price can increase proportionally. Desirability encourages the purchaser to think less of utility concepts such as practicality and price and more of satisfying the desire to acquire and own.

Taking all these factors into account, the 946 is not dramatically over-priced; it is pitched at a level where Piaggio think they can achieve maximum value from the product without negatively impacting demand. As someone said earlier, the cash registers will be the thing that Piaggio will listen to more than a few whines on an internet forum.

There have been examples where manufacturers in the motorcycle industry have got this completely wrong. I can think of the the original Yamaha FZ1 where they over priced it to a level that completely over estimated the product's desirability. It eventually settled at a retail price nearly £2k less. I am not seeing that with the 946, which is unlikely ever to be a volume product for the Group.

Well said! Thank you. And, Happy New Year to everyone at MV and may this 946 thread rest in peace Or, be replaced by the dumbass, moronic dad dancing around his Crestor shrine

Can anyone name just one advantage that a Vespa has over a Kymco?

Different engine designs (including twin cylinders in some options)
Plastic body panels
Vintage or Modern Asian designs
Lighter weight
More storage options

Many are based on personal preference, but they are dramatically different than the 946 and offer different things. The core of this particular argument is that the engine, body materials and country of origin are the exact same for both the 946 and the Primavera. Aside from style elements, a slight bit less plastic and the removal of practical storage, the 946 doesn't offer any advantage other than elitism.

And, this in and of itself wouldn't be an issue (except it gives many of us reason to point and snicker at those who are so eager to spend money just to tell everyone that they can spend more money than the other guy). The problem is that Piaggio is clearly doing everything it can to become more a fashion accessory for people like Paris Hilton than a motorcycle brand. And, the hype over the 946 is a major objective towards moving the brand even further upmarket. And, they have made it clear that the 'poor people' can just slum it with the fly 150 and leave the future Vespas for the beautiful people. That just pisses off people like me who will save the cash for the quality Vespa that does offer performance for the money and who have been fans of their bikes for years and decades.

Why? Because it shows that while the customers want to support the brand, the brand will ditch their customers when they see better money. This is what Vespa is clearly desiring. They are wanting to go the Apple route of marketing, while companies like Honda and Kymco choose the Google or Microsoft route by sticking with a baseline product that DOES offer advantages, and then offer luxury products with clear advantages in performance, durability and versatility and not just a bit of shine.

Now, if Vespa put more effort in the Primavera line and actually released other non-boring designs in their Piaggio line, then my comments would be out of line because then they would be catering to all markets, and that would be smart. But, the energy put into promoting the 946 has been so heavy, Piaggio has made it clear where it wants the Vespa name to go

Absolutely. There isn't a "vintage Kymco" crowd to act like asshats.

This seems a pathetic argument , so what you are saying is that as I like Ford as a make of car they should sell me the top of the range Ford for the same or similar price as their base models, and by not doing this they are being disloyal and not giving a toss about their loyal poorer customers. I`m still dumbfounded by some of the reasoning people on this thread are using to slag of a bike they dont want, like or just think its too expensive when in reality its a lot cheaper than most decent motorbikes.

Alisalann-

And thus Znomit's most appropriate Subject line for the thread in the first place:

The "Whinging about the 946 price" thread

The thread is here for the express purpose of collecting whinges, and there have been some "classics", both serious and tongue in cheek.

I feel like I back to USSR school again. Some people don't want to Lear the history and stick to outdated Marx theory,
Yes, Vespa made a fashion accessory and presented it in Bulgary boutique. It was excellent move, EXACTLY THE SAME VESPA DID IN 1946. It works Read the history, at least history of Vespa.

Let's take this one by one. This is neither an advantage nor a disadvantage without quantifying which factors the buyer finds most important. The two engines are just different. And as each buyer will be looking for different factors (performance vs economy vs reliability, for instance) this one is a wash. It comes down to a matter of personal preference. Again, this is subjective based on what the buyer most values. Metal is classic, but plastic body panels are easier to replace than a dented monocoque. It comes down to a matter of personal preference. This is, again, a difference, and not an objective advantage or disadvantage. It comes down to a matter of personal preference. Which model? I dare say that on the whole, Kymco scooters aren't much heavier or lighter than their comparable Vespa models. Again, without specifying a specific couple of models, this is a meaningless statement. I believe you've missed the point. Mike asked if there were any advantages of the 946 over the Prima. The answer is at once both a resounding "No" -- they're very much mechanically alike -- and simultaneously "Yes" -- the 946 is a radical styling departure from the Prima. One is an objective analysis, and the other is a subjective analysis. Is one objectively better than the other? No. Is one subjectively better than the other? Obviously. Which one, of course, is an exercise for each individual to assess for themselves, and to make a cost/value analysis based on their own opinions.

Not your opinion, not my opinion, but their own opinion. At the core of the "946 is too expensive" meme is the notion that your own opinion on subjective points (and the underlying cost/value analysis) should apply to everyone else. That's not just arrogant, it's also asinine. You're free to make that assessment for yourself. Trying to convince anyone else that your subjective opinion is the One True Correct opinion is proselytizing, plain and simple.

(And I happen to think that proselytizing is a heinous act).

But this thread appears to have been initiated specifically for whinging (protesting and complaining). Whinging need not be rational and is quite commonly asinine. Of course one can whinge about someone else's whinging, I guess.

i've missed this

All whinging is not created equally. One can whinge without presupposing that one's own opinion should apply to everyone else. And if that's in conflict with the supposed purpose of this thread, then this thread should probably be locked.

This pretty much sums it up for me...

"The perceived value is the worth that a product or service has in the mind of the consumer. The consumer's perceived value of a good or service affects the price that he or she is willing to pay for it. For the most part, consumers are unaware of the true cost of production for the products they buy. Instead, they simply have an internal feeling for how much certain products are worth to them. Thus, in order to obtain a higher price for their products, producers may pursue marketing strategies to create a higher perceived value for their products."

For me the 946 is too expensive, and so was the GT60. I can't tell you how many people would complain that Vespas were overpriced compared to the competitors, despite all the differences between them. I still choose to own a Vespa because I perceive the value that others can't.

For whatever reason, for me it's lost on the 946.

Anybody know how to unregister from this forum? Emailed Jess, a moderater and admin@modernvespa.com. No replies. Trying this thread since I see a post from Jess.

See the menu bar at the top of the page, below the logo? Notice that there isn't an "Unregister" item up there. If there was a way to unregister, that's where it would be. Since it's not there, you should assume that there isn't actually a way to "unregister", whatever that means.

There is, however, a "Log Out" item. You are free to log out at any time and never log in again.

why do you want to unregister (just asking like)?

Unregister means removing your info from a forum, a lot have it.

What info? The initials "jsm"?

And no, most forums most assuredly do not have an unregister function:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=forum+unregister

No way to unregister, good enough, I guess it's related to advertising revenue.

No. It's related to keeping intertwined conversations intact. Sponsors care about page views, not number of members.

Could have said that at the start.

You could have just stopped logging in.

If you do manage to eject jsm could you not do it all over my thread please?

Porsche needs to stop production immediately! They can't hold a candle to the wildly practical and successful Pontiac Aztec; with all of its payload capacity, high mileage, low cost and sheer practicality, Porsche does not stand a chance. In fact, the Aztec is so far superior it will probably land a television role on A & E to symbolize its cache. And the best of all we can throw in the reliability and dependability of Microsoft! Wow three years ago when I realized I was a senior citizen and did not have enough life span left to wait for the hour glass to disappear on my computer screen in my IT Consulting work, I switched to a MAC, why have I believed my lying eyes all this time; what I perceived to Apple's bedrock solid build quality, amazing performance and dependability had to be just an illusion. I miss the boggy performance and crashes of my good old inexpensive widows machine.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the companies being referenced ARE similar and have a lot in common. First and foremost Apple and Porsche are the most profitable companies in their industries. In fact poor Porsche, producer of beautifully impractical cars earn $28,000 per vehicle sold, there isn't even a close second. Apple retail space is the most profitable on earth with cash reserves undreamt of ten years ago. Must be a result of all those bad decisions. If Vespa and others had not innovated in the first place Kymco would have nothing to copy or sell. (Not that there is anything wrong with Kymco scooters)

In the end maybe we should all buy at WalMart exclusively. In fact we probably should be banned from buying scooters or any two wheeled vehicle, Kymco, Vespa, or Harley as they are all impractical compared to the Aztec. Maybe an AMC Pacer could also do!

I am not saying one perspective is better than another. But, as a marketing move, this is a bad idea for Vespa because it makes them look pretentious and thus drives away potential customers when the core of their advertising campaign is "LOOK HOW EXPENSIVE I AM!!!!", when only a small number of their bikes are in that category.

Many on here seem to miss that point: That Vespas apsirations are too high in comparison to their market. So, let me try to put this another way:

When Hyundai wanted to move upmarket, they created an entire new division within Hyundai. These cars included the Equis (spelling correct?) and the genesis. Both of these instantly got attention, not for their revolutionary attempts at bringing V8 powered Korean cars to the US, but for the insane amount of money they cost. Of course, Hyundai countered with the fact that you got alot more for your cash than with the competition. They saw that perception of value and sticker shock were important to manage.

The problem here is that Vespa has yet to learn that balance. They are riding the wave of "perceived luxury" but not proving that if you want to be associated with luxury, there are ways into it that don't cost $10,000. Nearly everyone I encountered while waiting at my local Vespa dealer to get my GTS repaired saw the 946, and the first words they said were "$10k for a moped? Why don't you just buy *insert bike here*". This is the point when the salesman inserts what you get with the 946 that you can't get anywhere else...

...but you can't. You even mentioned that the Primavera and the 946 are the exact same bike. This is a complete failure for marketing by Piaggio. Even if they did something simple but outstanding in *one* category, they could really play that up. Make it communicate with an exclusive app for your device. Throw a turbocharger on it. Anything to be unique AND offer something you cannot get anywhere else, much less within their own line for less than half the price.

The Kymco argument still stands because to many, things line twin cylinder engines over 150cc and easy to repair plastic panels ARE an advantage. And, nearly all Kymcos have some version of underseat storage at least (again, and advantage to some, even if it isn't a big deal to you) But, that's why there is a varied market. for Piaggio to survive in that market, making uber-rich bikes that are only seen as publicity stunts won't help their bottom line much at the end of the day. As someone else said, there are already 946's being sold at a discount elsewhere. The 946 at Chandler BMW/Vespa is no longer at the center of the showroom. It hasn't moved any buyers towards it.

"Subjective difference" and "Perceived Value" are the kind of descriptors that scare off investors and dealerships. This is why Honda is the #1 bike in Italy, when it should of been Vespa. They have a diverse line that is both expensive AND affordable, and make it clear that they will cater to both groups. So, the previous statement that Ford should only sell cars at one price to fit my logic doesn't hold when you see Honda's method (which is pretty much the method of all manufactures)

A flagship model should show you company's vision of where you want to take the brand. Look at the Mustang, the Corvette, The Model S from Tesla... they state what the marque SHOULD be. The only thing I've seen from the 946 is that they want it to be expensive.

Yeah. And everything from 1946 is relevant and works perfectly today (such as segregation, having only several TV stations and wired telephones).

And get over your hangup on the username. It's not cute.

But you are, which is readily apparent from your continuous attack on the mechanical similarities while ignoring the aesthetic aspects of the bike. You don't have to like the aesthetics, but you simply cannot in good faith ignore the fact that the 946 is a radical style departure from the bog-standard LX/Prima line. It is the very essence of what sets the 946 apart, and your argument pretends that this factor doesn't exist. It does exist, and vehicle aesthetics have been part and parcel of purchasing decisions since the Model A. You are, once again, asserting that the only thing the 946 brings to the table is the elite price tag. Clearly, you don't like the aesthetics. Clearly, others do. You will have to accept this basic fact (one only needs to peruse this forum for ten minutes to determine that there are many varied opinions on the 946) before further dialog on the subject can be possible.

And if you really think it's such a terrible marketing move, then I urge you to submit your resume to Piaggio for a marketing position post-haste.

You have left out an important part of the picture. Vespa isn't a company. Vespa is a division of one of the largest PTW manufacturers in the world. The Vespa brand includes marketing strategies and vehicles for a portion of Piaggio's market. That portion apparently likes upscale vehicles and a somewhat retro image. And some of those customers like special releases and "collector" models. Piaggio also makes models for just about every other segment of the market. The Fly 150, the BV 350, the MP3 500, the Aprilia 850, the Moto Guzzi 1200 - something out there for everyone.

An excellent point, sir. Vespa is the aspirational brand of Piaggio, at least as far as scooters are concerned.

I found something that puts this thread in perspective. I thought "whinge" was just the Brit version of "whine", but it appears there is more to it than that.

"Definition of whinge from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. One whines when in pain or distress - one whinges when bored or miserable, ..."

This thread has reminded me a bit of a thread a couple of years ago when apple iOS 6 was in beta. It was in response to an Android fanboy who was trashing Iphones and is in my top ten favorite posts on MV. May not be an exact fit but it is close. Maybe change "the masses" to "Piaggio's marketing"

"Expensive" is a relative term. For some people, $6000+ for a GTS300/"moped" is too much.

I remember chatting with a car salesman who told me that people who spend $100k+ on a car are not looking at the value proposition, but more often are looking to make a statement.

Whether (potential?) customers like it or not, Vespa is a luxury brand. I don't think $10k is too much for a flagship, iconic scooter.