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Aviator47 wrote:
And thus Znomit's most appropriate Subject line for the thread in the first place:

The "Whinging about the 946 price" thread

The thread is here for the express purpose of collecting whinges, and there have been some "classics", both serious and tongue in cheek.

Of course one can whinge about someone else's whinging, I guess.
Thus my post was just this but thanks for clearing up my confusion.


I still don`t get it though it a load of supposedly "Vespa" fans whinging about Vespa`s flagship model because its well not as fast as some and not as cheap as others. Just seems like a lot of whiners to me
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GT60 price whinging?
Can someone who was on MV prior to the GT60 release comment on how similar/dissimilar the reaction was to this model? From what I've read, the GT60 was also priced a bit higher compared to the GTV.
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jess wrote:
Dooglas wrote:
neotrotsky wrote:
Many on here seem to miss that point: That Vespas aspirations are too high in comparison to their market.
You have left out an important part of the picture. Vespa isn't a company. Vespa is a division of one of the largest PTW manufacturers in the world. The Vespa brand includes marketing strategies and vehicles for a portion of Piaggio's market. That portion apparently likes upscale vehicles and a somewhat retro image. And some of those customers like special releases and "collector" models. Piaggio also makes models for just about every other segment of the market. The Fly 150, the BV 350, the MP3 500, the Aprilia 850, the Moto Guzzi 1200 - something out there for everyone.
An excellent point, sir. Vespa is the aspirational brand of Piaggio, at least as far as scooters are concerned.
Good point. I myself bought a Vespa because you expect to get something of quality for the money. But, the 946 is a bad move because, as many who have fallen for the looks keep stating, the looks are supposed to be *the* thing. The only thing. If you as a consumer don't "get it", then there must be something wrong with you!

Counterpoint- Luxury marques who have in the past tried to pass off base-model versions of autos as "premium" simply based on design, while leaving the mechanical bits underneath relatively unchanged:


Cadillac Cimarron= Chevy Cavalier with some Laurel leaves and a toneau cover (if you were spendy). Retailed for nearly twice the price as the Cavalier with the same driveline. The fallout was so bad over sales that many on the board in charge of that project at GM either lost their jobs or took some massive penalties. Listed as one of the 50 worst cars in history by Car and Driver magazine.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Aston Martin Cygnet= Take a Toyota iQ, add leather and Bentley name badges, and then sell it for a mind-blowing $42,000 US. Needless to say, it failed. External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Another Cadillac: The Caterra= An Opel Omega with an odd-duck 54 degree V6 that only produced 200hp. I say only because the car weighed in at 3,800 lbs with the extra "luxury" items like letather seats, but still rolling on the factory suspension. No other offers other than trim. Sold for $35,000. By the end of the run, the average depreciation was over 75% within the first year.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Chevrolet SSR= Mechanically, a Chevy Silverado (like a Vespa, not a bad driveline to start with). But, focusing only on body style, the design and the $42,000 price tag (the highest base price for a GM truck at the time). Pushed as a design triumph, the end result was an over 301 day supply (DOA in automotive sales terms) and ended up causing a 5 week layoff of labor at the plant that manufactured it. Truck fans of GM slammed it hard for not being a "real" truck and insisting the sport truck movement had finally jumped the shark with this one. It lasted for only 3 model years (while it was only made for 2 years with as much supply that was on hand). Style was expected to be enough to demand a high price tag...
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Chrysler TC by Maserati= Granted a case of mistaken identity, but it fits perfectly into the lesson that you can't take something that looks like a base model without SIGNIFIGANT incentive and expect to turn it into a luxury product. The TC used a custom 4 cylinder engine designed by Maserati with an American made turbo and manufactured in Japan, with race suspension and all the trimmings.

And, it looked JUST like the Chrysler LeBaron. Not surprising since it was based on a shortened Daytona chassis.

People took one look at it, then a look at the $33,000- $37,000 (in 1989 money) and thought that Iacocca had to finally go. The car, like it's less-engineered cousins above, was a flop... even with actual design under the hood
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

There are other examples, but this makes the point I am presenting in debate: Base model engines with *only* design to encourage me, the consumer, to part with double to quadruple the asking price just for the privilege to spend more money just don't work for very long. Each of the manufacturers took a massive sales hit and a reputation hit with each one of those failed experiments. They tried to create luxury from nothing, expecting buzz and that "undefined factor" to convince people that they were buying quality and not another suit of Emperor's clothing.

* edited due to some insane sizes of the sample pictures... sorry for the screen hogging!
⚠️ Last edited by neotrotsky on UTC; edited 5 times
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Alisalann wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
And thus Znomit's most appropriate Subject line for the thread in the first place:

The "Whinging about the 946 price" thread

The thread is here for the express purpose of collecting whinges, and there have been some "classics", both serious and tongue in cheek.

Of course one can whinge about someone else's whinging, I guess.
Thus my post was just this but thanks for clearing up my confusion.


I still don`t get it though it a load of supposedly "Vespa" fans whinging about Vespa`s flagship model because its well not as fast as some and not as cheap as others. Just seems like a lot of whiners to me
When someone disagrees with something, I hardly call it "whining", unless of course your viewpoint runs counter to the one making the case otherwise
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neotrotsky wrote:
But, the 946 is a bad move because, as many who have fallen for the looks keep stating, the looks are supposed to be *the* thing. The only thing. If you as a consumer don't "get it", then there must be something wrong with you!
I'd wager that most people don't lay awake at night wondering why someone else likes something that they don't. They might say "that's ugly!" but it doesn't send them running to the interwebs trying to convince everyone else that the company that produced said ugly thing is going to imminently go belly up for their perceived missteps.

Riddle me this: How many mainstream outlets carry a picture of the 946 when it was announced? And how many of those same mainstream outlets carried a picture of the Prima when it was announced?

By my reckoning, Piaggio's marketing team knows quite a bit more than you do.
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jess wrote:
neotrotsky wrote:
But, the 946 is a bad move because, as many who have fallen for the looks keep stating, the looks are supposed to be *the* thing. The only thing. If you as a consumer don't "get it", then there must be something wrong with you!
I'd wager that most people don't lay awake at night wondering why someone else likes something that they don't. They might say "that's ugly!" but it doesn't send them running to the interwebs trying to convince everyone else that the company that produced said ugly thing is going to imminently go belly up for their perceived missteps.

Riddle me this: How many mainstream outlets carry a picture of the 946 when it was announced? And how many of those same mainstream outlets carried a picture of the Prima when it was announced?

By my reckoning, Piaggio's marketing team knows quite a bit more than you do.
By what I've seen, only the 946 gets talked about... and it's price.

I don't pretend to be a marketing expert, but it just looks as history repeating itself, and with competition for motorcycles and scooters not slowing down I don't think this will be a help to Piaggio. That is simply my take.
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neotrotsky wrote:
By what I've seen, only the 946 gets talked about... and it's price.
Good publicity is when they spell your name right. In this case, including a picture of what is (to some) a desirable object across countless news outlets is lots of free marketing for Piaggio.
neotrotsky wrote:
it just looks as history repeating itself
Which history would that be? Can you cite a similar situation from Piaggio's past?
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jess wrote:
neotrotsky wrote:
By what I've seen, only the 946 gets talked about... and it's price.
Good publicity is when they spell your name right. In this case, including a picture of what is (to some) a desirable object across countless news outlets is lots of free marketing for Piaggio.
neotrotsky wrote:
it just looks as history repeating itself
Which history would that be? Can you cite a similar situation from Piaggio's past?
Not from Piaggio, but from other auto manufacturers. That was the point of the massive post I made above: The exact same type of marketing has been tried but failed. The 946 is no different than Cadillac's Cimarron or Aston-Martin's fancy iQ. Some will pay the money, but others aren't buying the story, much less the machine.

I can wager that about half of the 946's will still be on the showroom floor come the end of riding season this year. That is my prediction.
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neotrotsky wrote:
jess wrote:
neotrotsky wrote:
By what I've seen, only the 946 gets talked about... and it's price.
Good publicity is when they spell your name right. In this case, including a picture of what is (to some) a desirable object across countless news outlets is lots of free marketing for Piaggio.
neotrotsky wrote:
it just looks as history repeating itself
Which history would that be? Can you cite a similar situation from Piaggio's past?
Not from Piaggio, but from other auto manufacturers. That was the point of the massive post I made above: The exact same type of marketing has been tried but failed. The 946 is no different than Cadillac's Cimarron or Aston-Martin's fancy iQ. Some will pay the money, but others aren't buying the story, much less the machine.
Sure. But those companies didn't promptly go belly-up, either. They tried something, and it either worked or didn't work, depending on what exactly they were trying to accomplish. The point is that in a capitalist market, companies are incentivized to distinguish themselves from their competitors. We as consumers vote with our dollars. That's the sum total of the game. So what, exactly, do you have to gain by trying to convince us all that Piaggio has made a gigantic mistake? Either you like it or you don't. If you don't like it, then say so and be done with it. This armchair quarterback second-guessing of Piaggio's marketing effort is just noise.
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jess wrote:
neotrotsky wrote:
jess wrote:
neotrotsky wrote:
By what I've seen, only the 946 gets talked about... and it's price.
Good publicity is when they spell your name right. In this case, including a picture of what is (to some) a desirable object across countless news outlets is lots of free marketing for Piaggio.
neotrotsky wrote:
it just looks as history repeating itself
Which history would that be? Can you cite a similar situation from Piaggio's past?
Not from Piaggio, but from other auto manufacturers. That was the point of the massive post I made above: The exact same type of marketing has been tried but failed. The 946 is no different than Cadillac's Cimarron or Aston-Martin's fancy iQ. Some will pay the money, but others aren't buying the story, much less the machine.
Sure. But those companies didn't promptly go belly-up, either. They tried something, and it either worked or didn't work, depending on what exactly they were trying to accomplish. The point is that in a capitalist market, companies are incentivized to distinguish themselves from their competitors. We as consumers vote with our dollars. That's the sum total of the game. So what, exactly, do you have to gain by trying to convince us all that Piaggio has made a gigantic mistake? Either you like it or you don't. If you don't like it, then say so and be done with it. This armchair quarterback second-guessing of Piaggio's marketing effort is just noise.
I'm not saying they are going to go belly up, but they aren't in the lead in terms of market share. And, it's a clear statement that they want to go more exclusive, when that track hasn't exactly worked out as they had hoped profit-wise. Who knows? Hopefully the Primavera will be the hit it looks to be and they will see that the sweet spot for pricing and features is around $5-6k.

The problem is when someone says they don't like it, instantly they're called whiners, idiots or they just "don't get it". I'm just presenting my side and the logic that I got there by. I think a bit of good healthy debate is critical and what forums are made for. Unless, debate is only allowed if every one agrees with your view.

I have an opinion, but it seems to run counter to all of the cool kids, so therefore it's just "noise". Well, as entrenched in your opinion as you are, so am I. We both have numbers and anecdotal evidence to support our claims. That's cool. I want to make sure Vespa as a brand thrives, but hopefully not in a price range where it will be easier for me to buy a full on service truck or family wagon than it is to buy a scooter in the future.

No harm meant, and no foul. Just a perspective that is different
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neotrotsky wrote:
jess wrote:
neotrotsky wrote:
By what I've seen, only the 946 gets talked about... and it's price.
Good publicity is when they spell your name right. In this case, including a picture of what is (to some) a desirable object across countless news outlets is lots of free marketing for Piaggio.
neotrotsky wrote:
it just looks as history repeating itself
Which history would that be? Can you cite a similar situation from Piaggio's past?
Not from Piaggio, but from other auto manufacturers. That was the point of the massive post I made above: The exact same type of marketing has been tried but failed. The 946 is no different than Cadillac's Cimarron or Aston-Martin's fancy iQ. Some will pay the money, but others aren't buying the story, much less the machine.

I can wager that about half of the 946's will still be on the showroom floor come the end of riding season this year. That is my prediction.
Speaking about Cadillac, Lev Davydovich:
Chevrolet suburban clone, Escalade is more expensive however sales figures have been strong and stable since 2010.
When Stalin purged his party from Trotsky and his followers he used an expression "don't impose a discussion on us".
Karl Marx once said "History repeats ... first as tragedy, then as farce"
He meant Napoleon I and Napoleon III
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Re: GT60 price whinging?
DRWeside wrote:
Can someone who was on MV prior to the GT60 release comment on how similar/dissimilar the reaction was to this model? From what I've read, the GT60 was also priced a bit higher compared to the GTV.
I don't recall any threads quite as epic as this one, but I do recall a time when a Bay Area dealer had a (new) "used" (i.e., <5 mile) example for sale on Craigslist, and the asking price was around $10k. If memory serves, a few references to crack cocaine, and the smoking of it, were made during the course of that discussion.
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neotrotsky wrote:
The problem is when someone says they don't like it, instantly they're called whiners, idiots or they just "don't get it". I'm just presenting my side and the logic that I got there by.
You can stop right there with the word "logic". You are (again) attempting to argue the logic of something that is subjective. It can't be done, and anyone who attempts to assign objective logic to a subjective subject is a fool. Attempting to argue the logic of aesthetics or a cost/value analysis is counterproductive for you and everyone that is forced to listen to you. You can like it or not like it. Say so, and then move on.

People like what they like. Trying to convince them otherwise makes you an asshole of epic proportions just as much as trying to convert someone to your religion would.

End of.
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jess wrote:
neotrotsky wrote:
The problem is when someone says they don't like it, instantly they're called whiners, idiots or they just "don't get it". I'm just presenting my side and the logic that I got there by.
You can stop right there with the word "logic". You are (again) attempting to argue the logic of something that is subjective. It can't be done, and anyone who attempts to assign objective logic to a subjective subject is a fool. Attempting to argue the logic of aesthetics or a cost/value analysis is counterproductive for you and everyone that is forced to listen to you. You can like it or not like it. Say so, and then move on.

People like what they like. Trying to convince them otherwise makes you an asshole of epic proportions.

End of.
Right.... Well, I know what I don't like.
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neotrotsky wrote:
jess wrote:
neotrotsky wrote:
The problem is when someone says they don't like it, instantly they're called whiners, idiots or they just "don't get it". I'm just presenting my side and the logic that I got there by.
You can stop right there with the word "logic". You are (again) attempting to argue the logic of something that is subjective. It can't be done, and anyone who attempts to assign objective logic to a subjective subject is a fool. Attempting to argue the logic of aesthetics or a cost/value analysis is counterproductive for you and everyone that is forced to listen to you. You can like it or not like it. Say so, and then move on.

People like what they like. Trying to convince them otherwise makes you an asshole of epic proportions.

End of.
Right.... Well, I know what I don't like.
You sure do. Go back to Jess's cognitive dissonance quote I reposted. If you really think about it you may find some comfort. Eat the rich.
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neotrotsky, that cadillac caterra is a Holden VT commodore, opel rebadged them as well
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Aaaand Neo-Mercador for Neo-Trotsky is Jess.
The End
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For what it's worth I was the General Manager of the top selling Chrysler Dealership in the Northwest and a top 10 store in the Nation and we sold every single Maserati TC we ever received, got 5K over for the manual transmission versions and both the owner and I drove them passionately as demos for 18 months or so.

We bought up other dealers inventory thru dealer trades just to buy additional machines. Fast forward 20+ years and I'm still doing the same thing with machines like GT60 and 946. We have sold a boatload of 946 in the past 45 days.

The TC looked NOTHING (as opposed to "JUST") like a Chrysler Lebaron if you looked at it like an enthusiast.

Best,
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Can I give my 2 cents? I actually hope the 946 is going to fail epically in Holland so I can pick one up for cheap. Because I can't afford a 10k scooter but I sure as hell love the looks of the thing. I think it is drop dead gorgeous. And if it would be up for sale with a few miles on the odometer for considerably less money I would love to have one as my first motorcycle.

The high price tag of the thing is explained multiple times here. I think it is worth every penny for the looks alone. If you think it is to expensive it is obviously not for you. Trying to convince people that it is a bad product because of the price tag is just sad. It isn't a bad product and the price isn't bad. It is a Vespa at it's absolute best.
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10k and they couldn't even put a Denso plug in it? Crying or Very sad emoticon
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Petrolhead Tom wrote:
The high price tag of the thing is explained multiple times here. I think it is worth every penny for the looks alone. If you think it is to expensive it is obviously not for you. Trying to convince people that it is a bad product because of the price tag is just sad. It isn't a bad product and the price isn't bad. It is a Vespa at it's absolute best.
well said Tom
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znomit wrote:
10k and they couldn't even put a Denso plug in it? Crying or Very sad emoticon
Absolute rip off! Death to the defilers in Pontedera!
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cheaper alternative..
The Sundiro Mantis

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2000-SUNDIRO-YELLOW-MOPED-SCOOTER-/271361828198?pt=UK_Motorcycles&hash=item3f2e6ce566#ht_267wt_1255
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Re: cheaper alternative..
fleece wrote:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2000-SUNDIRO-YELLOW-MOPED-SCOOTER-/271361828198?pt=UK_Motorcycles&hash=item3f2e6ce566#ht_267wt_1255
Magnificent! Absolutely no unnecessary bodywork.
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All of us make "value judgements" on a regular basis. If someone sees the value and can justify spending their money on a particular automobile, diamond ring, etc., they'll buy it. If they don't see the value, they won't. Such is the case with the 946. Personally, I love the look but don't see the value at it's present price............but that's just me. If someone else sees the value and buys one, I think that's great because it's one more PTW and another happy rider on the road. Variety is the spice of life and if we all liked and purchased the exact same items, it would be a rather dull world. I hope that Vespa sells a ton of them. YMMV
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neotrotsky wrote:
When someone disagrees with something, I hardly call it "whining", unless of course your viewpoint runs counter to the one making the case otherwise
The title of the thread says exactly what it is "whining" .This thread was started to "whinge" about the 946 which you have done in epic proportions. As I have said over and over I don`t care if you or anyone else does`nt like 946`s and I don`t care that you want to slag it off ,it seems that you that think your opinion is right. I don`t think anyone`s opinion on this matter is wrong I just differ. But I am still puzzled as to why someone who does`nt like some material object would put so much effort into whinging about it . There are lots of things I don`t like so I would`nt trouble myself to go on a site and specifically slag it off. Unless of course you are just looking to offend someone who has spent their money on a 946 which if thats the case carry on. I DONT CARE. I like 946`s I don`t like people who whinge about them.
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Alisalann wrote:
I like 946`s I don`t like people who whinge about them.
But, Alisalann, don't you see? The 946 is a prime manifestation of a wrongheaded and corrupt system that will ultimately oppress us all.
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UTC quote
Aviator47 wrote:
Alisalann wrote:
I like 946`s I don`t like people who whinge about them.
But, Alisalann, don't you see? The 946 is a prime manifestation of a wrongheaded and corrupt system that will ultimately oppress us all.
Our activist should occupy Pontedera
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Piaggio Success
If marketing and manufacturing success is even measured in part by how much interest and discussion is generated the 946 is an amazing success. I've never read the thread with so much discussion about a new model. With
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Aviator47 wrote:
But, Alisalann, don't you see? The 946 is a prime manifestation of a wrongheaded and corrupt system that will ultimately oppress us all.
I did`nt but am starting to see it now. Will maybe get rid of the 946 and get something that everyone likes
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Alisalann wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
But, Alisalann, don't you see? The 946 is a prime manifestation of a wrongheaded and corrupt system that will ultimately oppress us all.
I did`nt but am starting to see it now. Will maybe get rid of the 946 and get something that everyone likes
ROFLOL! Clap emoticon ROFL emoticon
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UTC quote
Alisalann wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
But, Alisalann, don't you see? The 946 is a prime manifestation of a wrongheaded and corrupt system that will ultimately oppress us all.
I did`nt but am starting to see it now. Will maybe get rid of the 946 and get something that everyone likes
Ship it quietly to the Greek Islands, and I will dispose of it discretely for you. It's the least I can do.
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Znomit started this (can of worms) thread specifically for people like Neotrotsky. He bravely and wholeheartedly met the challenge, and now he's getting beat up for it? Laughing emoticon

Let's ease up a little. After all, it's just his opinion.
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DRWeside wrote:
Znomit started this (can of worms) thread specifically for people like Neotrotsky. He bravely and wholeheartedly met the challenge, and now he's getting beat up for it? Laughing emoticon

Let's ease up a little. After all, it's just his opinion.
i'm sorry, but there's voicing an opinion, and there's insulting every 946 buyer on here with statements like

"it gives many of us reason to point and snicker at those who are so eager to spend money just to tell everyone that they can spend more money than the other guy"

i haven't noticed any of the 946ers coming on here spouting off, so i think this sort of thing is uncalled for..
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fleece wrote:
DRWeside wrote:
Znomit started this (can of worms) thread specifically for people like Neotrotsky. He bravely and wholeheartedly met the challenge, and now he's getting beat up for it? Laughing emoticon

Let's ease up a little. After all, it's just his opinion.
i'm sorry, but there's voicing an opinion, and there's insulting every 946 buyer on here with statements like

"it gives many of us reason to point and snicker at those who are so eager to spend money just to tell everyone that they can spend more money than the other guy"

i haven't noticed any of the 946ers coming on here spouting off, so i think this sort of thing is uncalled for..
This
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DRWeside wrote:
Let's ease up a little. After all, it's just his opinion.
No. He's entitled to his opinion. He's not entitled to try to convince others that their opinion is wrong simply because his is different unless he can show by objective logic that his position is correct. Since the main draw for the 946 is clearly in the realm of the subjective, his proselytization is foolish, offensive, and unwelcome.
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Re: GT60 price whinging?
DRWeside wrote:
Can someone who was on MV prior to the GT60 release comment on how similar/dissimilar the reaction was to this model? From what I've read, the GT60 was also priced a bit higher compared to the GTV.
From what I recall the Gt60 predated the GTV, so when it came out there was nothing exactly like it.
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fleece wrote:
DRWeside wrote:
Znomit started this (can of worms) thread specifically for people like Neotrotsky. He bravely and wholeheartedly met the challenge, and now he's getting beat up for it? Laughing emoticon

Let's ease up a little. After all, it's just his opinion.
i'm sorry, but there's voicing an opinion, and there's insulting every 946 buyer on here with statements like

"it gives many of us reason to point and snicker at those who are so eager to spend money just to tell everyone that they can spend more money than the other guy"

i haven't noticed any of the 946ers coming on here spouting off, so i think this sort of thing is uncalled for..
Point taken. Maybe it's just me, but I try to follow the forum guidelines as close as possible when posting. Still, there are others who may not be aware, are on medication, or just don't a f*ck about insulting others on the internet. It is the internet after all, and anonymity brings out the "best" in people. For all we know, if Neotrotsky were a millionaire, he probably wouldn't think twice about buying a couple of 946s. This goes back to Sticky's quoting of Jess and cognitive dissonance. In the end, who cares? It's the opinion of someone who doesn't pay your bills and doesn't sign your paychecks. You don't have to justify your purchases to people you don't know, on the internet or in person. Would you get mad if you owned a 946 and someone said that to you in person? There are A LOT of people who don't understand why you'd pay $10k for a "moped". You'd probably be angry all the time...

TBH, if Vyatka hadn't clarified that his comments were in jest, I thought he was being serious.

I've read past threads here where the OP was assumed to be boasting about all of the very expensive toys he had.

Just search for Ruby Helmet Leica.
⚠️ Last edited by DRWeside on UTC; edited 1 time
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jess wrote:
DRWeside wrote:
Let's ease up a little. After all, it's just his opinion.
No. He's entitled to his opinion. He's not entitled to try to convince others that their opinion is wrong simply because his is different unless he can show by objective logic that his position is correct. Since the main draw for the 946 is clearly in the realm of the subjective, his proselytization is foolish, offensive, and unwelcome.
I stand corrected.
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DR you beat me to the Ruby helmet and Leica camera thread. Laughing emoticon That one was a classic. Don't remember the GT60 getting it's own 7 page spread on here. The Ruby helmets got more comments than the GT60 Laughing emoticon
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