Modern Vespa

Very cautiously.

We're all at the T&T stage right now.

I'm looking at stuffing 5 washers in there to hopefully prevent casing & belt damage....just waiting on parts.

Damn. Now I've queered the pitch! I was hoping some others would install the variator as per Dr.Pulley's instructions, to see what their experience would be.

Mike

Hi redfone,


If your GTV 300 is with stock and without any modification,please test V201503 with SR2115 in 15 gram and boss 46 mm only (ie.without any washer).

Hi Dr Pulley

Can you guarantee the belt won't rub the crank case without washers?

If so I will try it.

In Taiwan,for GTS300 our clients don't use the washer and in Greece,for PIAGGIO BEVERLY300 TOURER ,our client doesn't use the washer.

Okay Paul, I'll install it without the washer.

I have now had a few short runs, up to 80 kph, using 12 gram sliders and two spacer washers. The acceleration is very smooth, almost as good as the Polini, but the belt is still rubbing on the transmission case.

So if anyone is trying this variator in a 250, I advise them to test very carefullly and check that they don't have this problem too. Still can't see how my other mods could be causing this.

I have now switched back to my Polini variator.

Sorry, Dr.Pulley, for such a negative report. I have always praised your products in the past, on many scooter forums, and just can't underrstand what has gone wrong this time.

Mike

Hi Mike

Have you had any response back from Dr.Pulley regarding your findings. Would be good to get to the bottom of this.

Hello Red, No, they are waiting for me to perform more tests, but I have given up. My conclusions so far, with my modded GTS250 (Malossi V4 head and cylinder, clutch springs, torque spring, lambda emulator) seems happiest with 13 gram sliders, but the belt still rubs with two spacer washers in the variator (their instructions said use none!).

Nobody has also had problems with belt rubbing, and he is going to try more washers.

My scooter has been trouble-free and running beautifully for ages, and I want to keep it that way. So I have refitted my Polini and am getting rid of the Dr.Pulley variator. I didn't expect much extra peformance, but was hoping for smoother transitions. Well, I got the smooth at the cost of performance and reliability. The price was too high!

Mike

Is the belt rubbing at the back (clutch end) or the front? If at the back, the extra washers are the problem. If at the front, some dimensions of variator/sliders are plain wrong.

It's at the front, Jim. I have had both problems in the past. If it is at the back, you get a horrible squeal when idling. But I have marked the inside of the case below the variator, and seen my mark disappear. In addition, I have had my sump gasket destroyed and a resulting oil leak all over the variator and belt (and rear tyre).

I had the same problem when I tried to run Dr.Pulley sliders in my Polini variator, and had to fit about 1.5 mm of spacers to correct it. I now only use rollers in my Polini. I've decided that sliders are great in an OEM variator, but trouble in any aftermarket variator.

So the variator definitely needs more spacers inside.

Mike

You may be generalizing a bit too much, Mike. I've been running Dr. Pulley sliders in my Polini variator for nearly two years now with no problems at all... on a kitted LX150. The clearance problem may be specific to the QUASAR engines.

Yes, Silverstreak, you're dead right. I have a one track mind when it comes to scooters.

Mike

Gday everyone.
I bought the V201503 off Dr Pulley on the Xmas special too, and I have promised the man performance test results to go up here too.
I will be picking up a new belt tomorrow, so I expect that in a week or so from now I will have all the results I promised (I have 5 days away at work in between, hence the delay).
I have however, taken some measurements of the V201503, and it MAY indicate what we MIGHT be able to do to use them successfully.

Attached below is the little comparison sheet I drew up. I don't reckon it was a waste of time at all, because now Mr OopsClunkThud will have one more variator to add to his list of options!

The first thing I noticed, is that the ramp distance from the centre pin flange to the outer edge of the pulley is 10.2mm for Dr Pulley, and 11.7mm for my stock X8 250ie. This would mean the belt MUST ride higher in the sheaves, as the outer edge distance between them will be 1.5mm less at full throttle. A spacer washer fitted over the pin, but between te sheaves would be the first step to correcting this decreased gap, to keep the belt at the same distance as stock. It may not be an issue on Leader motors, and I don't know about the Quasar 300s, but my 250 as stock has a small amount of belt rubbing already, with NO mods at all, even rollers.

The second obvious difference between the two variators, is the angle of the ramps for the sliders/rollers. On the stock variator, the ramp for the rollers only rises 12mm or so, over a 32mm or so distance. However, the D.P. ramps are much, much steeper, rising nearly double OEM at 22mm, and over a shorter distance of 31mm. I will leave it to others much more versed in CVT nuances than me on how this would affect the operation of the variator, but I would expect the rollers to rise much quicker up the ramps, and also exert greater pressure on the sheave from the same roller weight, and at an earlier stage.

There are differences in the belt face angles also. I measured the OEM ramp face at 14*, and I measured the D.P. ramp face at 14.9*. Now please bear in mind I'm going to the city tomorrow to get new glasses when using the angles as a definitive measure! I can still see the verniers properly, but I can't vouch for exactness! I spose it's enough to say the D.P. angle is slightly higher.

The quality of the piece is exemplary. The alloy is beautifully made and machined, really nice piece. It's also quite a bit lighter than OEM (my scales don't read that exact). All in all, I'm very happy to have spent the money to have bought the piece, it's very shiny!

Performance reports to follow. I promise Dr Pulley!

Hi MODNROD

Very informative post and appreciate all the effort. Looking forward to your findings once installed.

Mine will be going in a 300 but I won't be installing it until mid Feb as I am OS at the moment.

From my understanding there is no difference between the variators for the 250/300, so your findings should point me in the right direction as well.

Hi Mike,

My 2012 Gts 250ie is absolutely stock (mechanically at least) and I am 173cm (5' 10") and weigh 85kg and swapping to DP sliders seems to be the recommendation but, what weight do you suggest?

I'm putting 'Percy' in for his first 1000km service tomorrow so it's too late to source sliders now so I will have to wait for the next 5000k service.

Finally, where do you recommend sourcing them from as SIP (in Germany)want a minimum spend for outside of the EEC which makes purchase impractical!

Cheers Fatboy

PS Hope all is well in your area now that cooler weather seems to be coming in-thoughts go out to all those affected during these high fire risk days...

http://thescooterland.com/performancecvt/

Where I got my sliders from for the Sportcity One.

Appreciated Modnrod and there in Oz too - terrific! Any opinion on weight?

I've seen everything from 11g up to 13g in rollers for a stock GTS250.
I think standard are 11.2g and green (and I have that colour/weight in my X8 250ie, same drivetrain/tyre), so if you do lots of freeway stuff at 100kph and if it was my bike (which it isn't......) I would go for 10.5g DP sliders. If however you terrorise little old ladies down footpaths in the CBD and generally ride like a complete twat all the time off every set of lights (as opposed to the rest of us, who only do that every second set) then I would pick 9.5g.

Brilliant thanks! I travel 10km to work and one junction of a freeway but do little Granny baiting - so I guess the 10.5g will do it for me, cheers

Incidentally I just checked out the site but there seems no listings for gts250ie's under Piaggio, they seem to jump from LX's to x7's x8's and x9's (and I have no idea what they all are anyway) Equally there are no 9.5g or 10.5g only the stock weight of 11.2g or 10.7g-think Im getting myself tied in knots here...

Give them a ring. They often have other weights available, not on the website.
And also give Mike Holland a PM for a 2nd opinion.

Fatboy, I have a range of sliders in my garage, but for the standard variatot I liked 11 gram, much the same as everyone else has said. In my Polini variator I prefer 13 grams.

Monrod, don't forget that the sliders are working against two ramps - the one in the cast half pulley and the one in the metal plate at the back. So one has to look at both for the total picture of gap versus radius. You will also need to measure the two back plates to complete your comparison. Of course, if they are the same then no problem, but near as I can remember they are very different.

I disagree about the sliders moving faster up the steeper ramps - I think it will have the opposite effect. The centrifugal force of the rotating sliders is fighting against the contra spring in the clutch, and I think having steeper ramps is like going uphill. To get the same amount of slider/belt movement at the same revs, I am convinced you would need heavier sliders to push against the steeper ramps. Or, in other words, steeper ramps will keep the engine in a "lower gear" for longer as revs increase.

Mike

Yeah, that's cool. Thanks Mike.
As I said I really wasn't sure, but I'll take your word for it!
And yes, the backing plate is different. How different they are working together compared to stock is out of my knowledge zone I'm afraid.

A bit more support from Dr Pulley would be nice!

I'm thinking Wallis is using the scooter community to do his testing. That, without disclosure, disappoints me.

At least since the dawn of the personal computer age, the practice of companies using end users to do their testing has unfortunately become the norm.

Another reason not to be an "early adopter."

Good reminder, thanks. I forgot, Timothy's really dead now.

I've never met anyone from Dr Pulley, but the service and product support for me at least so far has been exemplary over the years.
I feel it necessary to therefore defend the said knights honour for him with a gentle reminder of the attributes of the competition.

Who among us has EVER received 3 forum posts, 4 emails (3 of which are offering free advice and ideas for support), and paid 1/2 price for a new product release from the following companies:

Polini
Malossi
J. Costa

I am happy to be product-testing, I enjoy it, I am a willing guinea-pig, and the end result is better products and an honest acceptance in the community of the evolution of the parts.

I don't however, sook and moan and groan about not getting a personal PM from a multinational conglomerate within 2 hours of posting in the opposite timezone of the world during the Xmas/New Year break.

This is a product testing thread full of honest and willing participants.
Do you have some sort of religious or philosophical objection for all of us?

Jeez, I would have thought that since we are all still riding after 21DEC2012 that would be enough to make anyone happy.

I agree 100%. They even sent me some lighter sliders, free of charge, to try out. What more can I ask?

But I still think their variator configuration for the Vespa 250 is crap. Waiting for confirmation (or the converse) from the rest of you guinea pigs.

Mike

Don't get me wrong.

What I'm complaining about is the current trend toward expecting customers to pay for a relatively untested product, and then capitalizing on their bad experiences with it so that it can be improved.

It used to be true that -- if a company wanted the public to test a product -- they either provided it free to those willing to take the risk and/or expend the effort, or even paid some of them for their efforts.

For example, a number of years ago I was asked by a manufacturer if I would test a new type of guitar string. Not only did they provide me with three free sets to test, they thanked me for my comments and provided me with three more complimentary sets for my efforts.

Fat chance of that happening these days.

Yes, but how do you know it is relatvely untested? The Dr.Pulley variator, in various manifestations, has been in use on other scooters for quite a while. For all I know, it may work beautifully just as supplied on an otherwise standard Vespa GTS (but it will take a fair bit to convince me!).

Mike

Isn't your transmission otherwise standard, Mike (I mean other than the variator itself)? If so, one would logically expect the same problem on others of the same model. Even if it were caused by something like an aftermarket belt, one would reasonably expect that a variator would be tested for that before marketing... or at least be provided with a warning not to use potentially problem belts.

If it hadn't been previously tested on a GTS specifically, it shouldn't have been advertised for sale for use on a GTS.

Silverstreak, I believe you are right. But I have a few other mods to my transmission - Malossi contra spring, Malossi clutch springs, Malossi torque converter.

I don't believe they would make any difference, and I don't believe my engine mods make any difference, so I would love to know how Dr.Pulley tested the variator on a GTS and came up with the recommendation of no spacer washers and 14-15 gram sliders.

Is anyone going to test this thing on an otherwise standard GTS?

Mike

Yes, I probably will once I'm back in the UK. I've often been an early adopter (Gilera Fuoco and GP800 come to mind) and sometimes have been the first reported customer with a particular problem (hidden fuse, duff steering bearing info in the manual, work-around for the flasher unit come to mind) - that's not unexpected. Good dealer support has always been there for me, and good eventual support from Piaggio once they've clocked there really is a problem.

Yes, me, next week.
X8 250ie anyway, identical drivetrain.

I am going to test it on my Scarabeo 250ie which is stock other than your airbox mod that you developed... which i am forever grateful for as it has the same performance increase as the pod filter adaptions i was using - but without the noise!!

First,we need to clarify that Dr.Pulley did not sell any untested parts to the publics.
Secondly,Dr.Pulley did not intend to using scooter community to do the testing.
Actually variator V201503 had been tested in several countries such as Greece ( PIAGGIO BEVERLY300 TOURER ),Singapore(GTS250/300 ),Vietnam (Liberty125 ),
Thailand (LX150) and Taiwan ( GT200,GTS250,GTS300,BV250 ).All the clients are very satisfied about the results.

The SR2015,SR2115 suggested are all according the feedbacks from the clients.

Now Mike has problem and told us the weight suggested is too heavy,we don't know why so we sent Mike lighter SR for his testing.

Yesterday, we asked our clients to test this V201503 in stock scooters (GTS300ie and GTV250ie ),

Please see the test results (video) in youtube -- Dr Pulley variator V201503 in GTS300ie
-- Dr Pulley variator V201503 in GTV250ie

Anyway,we hope there's someone who could test this variator in a STOCK scooter to see how is that.

Regards,

Uh... am I missing something, or aren't these two statements more than a little contradictory?

Let me be clear that I've got nothing against Dr. Pulley, and I am the happy user of some of their products, but they seem to be helping make the case that manufacturers these days rely on the end user (who has already paid for the product) to do the testing.

Hi Silver Streak,

Please don't mistake I didn't say your opinion is against Dr.Pulley's parts.
we just want to explain that the part was tested by us and also satisfied by our clients in several models of scooters from Piaggio group.
The weight suggested is mostly is for reference and the best weight of RR or SR might be different if the requirement about riding performance is different.
Just like the SR2115 in GTV250ie can be 15 gr as we suggested but someone thought 13 gr is better for street riding.

By the way, for these two scooter riders right now the 12 gr SR2117 is used in GTV250ie (the stock roller is 11.3 gr) and SR2117 15 gr is used for GTS300ie (the stock roller is 14 gr) but in our experience the suggest is to use lighter SR such as 0.5 to 1.5 gr lighter for 50 to 150cc;0.5 to 2 gram lighter for 200 to 300 cc;2 to 4 gr lighter for 500cc above.

Thanks to your choosing of Dr.Pulley parts and please always contact us if you have any opinion about Dr.Pulley parts.

Regards,

Dr.Pulley, I tried clicking on the two videos in your previous post, and all I got was a message saying "This video is private". Can you make them public? Or is it just me?

I tried viewing them on utibe, but got an error.

Mike