Modern Vespa

I saw this detailed in the January 2013 issue of Motorcyclist. This is one of very few mags I read each month and the 1st few words really caught my eyes..."Top speed: 95 mph. Range: 137 miles. Recharge time: one hour."

The top end model is $15,995; but considering the operating costs going forward it might not be a bad proposition if you get a lot of use from it.

Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1301_2013_zero_s_first_ride/viewall.html#ixzz2Djg3hxmw

There are some great pics in the article as well as on the Zero Website

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/?_kk=motorcycle%20electric&_kt=f19e7a49-2902-4de5-bcc6-6141695d7850&gclid=CM_KgZO297MCFck7MgodzjAArQ

Lots of discussion here: Must see Piaggio BV350 Video!!!

Video of it pitted against a BV350!

Gads, I forgot about that asshat! Mileage would be perfect for me. At that range I'd be all over a decent looking electric scooter. But so far it doesn't exist.

That was actually the 2012 model. Given that electric motorcycles seem to be following Moore's law, that's a big difference. The 2013 model sounds much improved.

Not sure if these have been posted before.

http://www.saigonscootercentre.com/Ebretta_VTronic_Electric_Scooters.asp?idBasket=&idcat=&itemid=&p=&c_id=&s_id=

A Lambretta style and vespa style.

Mark

I still really like this one.

I actually shopped e-bikes before purchasing a BV350. Although no e-bike currently exists that stays in a reasonable price range that has the driving range and top speed I need, it is still fascinating to watch how quickly these products are improving!

There have been and still are two major criticisms of this infant industry. They're too expensive and performance doesn't match gas-powered competitors. It is interesting how both Brammo and Zero are addressing the short comings of e-bikes. They are quickly closing the performance gap, but so far, at the expense of widening the price gap.

Brammo's now got a $17K bike that will go 60 plus miles on the highway and over 100 mph. It has 6 gears and operates like a conventional motorcycle. I figured that it wouldn't be long before Zero responded, and now they have. These top-of-the-line products would work for my commute, but I just couldn't pay three times the initial investment as my current gas scooter, especially when the latter has more features to allow for three season riding built in standard.

Now that performance is up to par, I would like to see them start working on the cost side of the equation for my next bike, even though my preference is to scooters.

If anyone on here is interested in any e-bike, pay no attention to the listed range that the EPA has come up with. Look at the highway range. That's about what one could expect in the real world.

The best e-scooter I could find is from current motors. Twelve thousand dollars gets you 60 mph and 40 mile, real-world range. Those numbers come in a little low for me performance wise and a lot high price wise.

gregsfc,

The only thing that is going to bring the price down is for people to start buying them in quantity to bring production costs down. There is no other way. The more they sell the cheaper each one is to build.

That had completely escaped my attention. What improvements have they made?

Read the article, it points some of them out. New controller, new batteries .....

Impressive from my view,


ZF8.5 ZF11.4
City/Highway/Combined range* 103/53/70 miles (166/85/113 km) 137/70/93 miles (220/113/150 km)
Max torque 68 ft-lb (92 Nm) 68 ft-lb (92 Nm)
Max power 54 hp (40 kW) @ 4300 RPM 54 hp (40 kW) @ 4300 RPM
Top speed* 95 mph (153 km/h) 95 mph (153 km/h)
Power pack maximum capacity 8.5 kWh 11.4 kWh
Estimated power pack life to 80% capacity (city) 258,000 miles (415,000 km) 343,000 miles (552,000 km)
Typical cost to recharge $0.90 $1.20
Equivalent fuel economy (city) 463 MPGe (0.51 L/100 km) 463 MPGe (0.51 L/100 km)
Charge time, empty to 95% 5.5 hours 7.4 hours
CHAdeMO charge time to 95% (acc.) 1 hour 1 hour
Weight 350 lb (159 kg) 382 lb (173 kg)
Seat height 31.3 inches (794 mm) 31.3 inches (794 mm)
MSRP** $13,995.00 $15,995.00

Range on the larger-battery model is 137 miles in the city, 70 miles on the freeway, and 93 miles for mixed-use. Top speed is 95mph. There's a smaller-battery version as well, with proportionately smaller range figures.

Then there are several other models that are designed for different uses (offroad, dual sport, and so on) that are both cheaper and lighter, but have a significantly smaller range.

They're now to the point where one of these bikes could easily work for me on my daily commute. The only real obstacle now is cost, and even that doesn't seem too far out of reach. Even their top-end model costs less than my BMW R12R.

I can see owning an electric motorcycle in a few years. I am a perfect candidate, 3 mile commute and most trips are under 100 miles round trip.

It's the lack of practicality/storage that would put me off!

Sure. But the same holds true for most motorcycles. I have a big top case on my BMW, and that works pretty well for day-to-day stuff.

I would love to get an electric cycle - especially if I could opt for less range. I just need 20 miles r/t or less, not 90. Would prefer less weight too, so am encouraged that there is talk of different packages.

Lack of a step through design kills it for me. It looks like that would not work with their design. If I were able, I'd be all over this one. Battery pack, listed life, is pretty amazing! Cup holder?

This actually looks pretty effin' awesome.

Would love to try it. I know that doesn't "happen" but I'd love ot try to have a few days commute on that thing.

Actually, to expand on that thought a little bit...

I really like the idea of these vehicles. Truly, I do. Really want these to succeed. The thing that's tough on that is that they really haven't gotten a lot of penetration in the market. First off, motorcycles are not considered legitimate commuting vehicles by most people over in the states so as being recreational, it's hard for people to think "I am going to spend $15,000 on something i don't know is really going to do the job I need it to do" (for comparison, a Honda Fit 5 speed manual costs the same).

So without enough people buying them and reporting their success stories with them, it's hard to go on a limb and trust it.

I'm sure they're out there, I just really don't hear about it. Which sucks because it seems like they'd gain much more acceptance and stuff if people heard how they did, in more than a one-off or PR-related way. I would love to hear long term reports from owners, comparisons by owners between older vehicles and the new ones that are put out, etc. The stuff we see in this community because scoots have gotten that level of general acceptance but electric motorcycles have not.

Sigh. If I had more confidence, I'd be willing to sell something to pick one up, maybe.

Specs:
Power pack maximum capacity 11.4 kWh
Charge time, empty to 95% 7.4 hours
CHAdeMO charge time to 95% (acc.) 1 hour

11.4 KWh / 7.4 hours = 1.54 KW = 13 amps at 120 vac.
11.4 KWh in one hour, plugged on 240 vac, takes a 50 amp circuit.

So I ride down to San Diego Vespa Motorsports, 118 miles. How do I get re-charged? Who will allow me to plug in at 120vac/15amp for 7 hours or at 240vac/50amp for an hour? (How big is the aux. charger that will recharge the bike in an hour, not to mention that 240vac/50amp circuit you can't find other than in your own garage.)

Sorry, but I cannot afford a local-only vehicle. Riding 2 hours and then waiting an hour or seven is not acceptable.

Definitely doesn't work in all situations. I certainly could not use this as my only vehicle in any capacity. I occasionally ride long distances. If I do 300-400 miles in one day that's a lot of starting/stopping and resting (if I find the right plug).

But I also ride every single day, rain or shine, 60 miles every day for my commute. In that context, the bike would be perfect.

All depends on what it's for, right? if it's the only bike you have, and you ride a lot or far, then it doesn't work. That of course that raises a new question - is this really best as a second vehicle? It's cost is prohibitive as a second vehicle for many people (and motorcycles tend not to be the sort of thing many people end up having multiples of - we are fanatics on this board). Interesting challenge to overcome from the sales end for these things.

Remember the large print giveth and the small print taketh away. That 114 mile range on the 2012 Zero S was alluded to in the Wes Siler's video. You would be lucky to get half that at highway speed. 85 mph? The controller slows you down after a short time and an indicated 75 (about 70 actual) is really the top sustained speed. They do make quantum leaps each year though. Zero got a grant and designed the new 2013 AC motor that will now be sealed. The specs do look impressive. I had a 2011 Zero S and it was fine until the brushes on the DC motor gave out. Fewer problems with the 2012 set up and hopefully even fewer with the 2013 models. The Brammo Empulse is a very heavy bike due to the addition of water cooling and a gear box and clutch which some feel makes it more like a conventional bike. These are high-tech bikes with computer chips, sensors, programs. That means if you have a problem with the controller, batteries, or motor, it is likely you won't be able to work on it yourself. The good news is they come with 2-year warranties. Too bad Li batteries are so expensive and not coming down as was once hoped, or these would make nice second or third bikes. I plan to test ride the Zero 2013 S. The new FX is perhaps the most interesting with highest torque and a very fast take-off. People are even doing wheelies on them. It would be my choice except for the 35-in. seat height.

There are some issues with video. some of which keep being pointed out, but are continually being ignored by some readers:

1. The conclusion from the players in the video use irrelevant and/or untrue information and statistics to make the Zero S look worse than it is. Go back and watch it closely. They use the 114 mi, EPA estimated range to test against, but when they run the trial, they run a large percentage at or near WOT and a lot of highway travel. They did not look and see what Zero has estimated for highway range, which is far, far less than 114 miles, and everyone who seriously looks at these machines knows that the EPA-estimated range is a joke (car or MC) and is for comparison only. In their test run, they actually come out almost exactly the range that Zero has claimed for hwy use. Moreover, they exaggerate the performance, range, fuel economy, and price of the BV350 to make it look a better value by comparison. I've got one; I should know. It is a great scooter, but it doesn't match the specs that they give it on any measure.

2. The reviewers are using the 2012 Zero S; not the 2013 Zero S. One of the main purposes of this thread is to show the new and improved Zero S, but some posters keep referring to a video that shows the last generation Zero S.

3. The Zero S review is being done as if to refer that these will be marketed to typical sport-bike enthusiasts like them who buy strictly for fun and sport, but in reality, e-bikes, at least at this point, are marketed to those more interested in transportation choices that make sense for a regular-joe's lifestyle. Many people who may be interested in an e-bike, for instance, may not ever even consider a MC otherwise as he or she sees it as a environmentally-conscience choice.

If you are one that would like to occasionally take long runs on a PTW, this is not for you, but if you are one that uses a PTW strictly in town or for 60-mile commutes or less, this vehicle actually provides more convenience than a liquid-fueled machine, because you never have to stop for fuel, check the oil, etc.

But the one thing that supersedes all this great stuff is the price, which is almost triple what one would get in a similar, gas-powered MC.

The 2013s are not out yet, although the dealers were treated to a test ride by Zero last month and they seem impressed. Siler didn't have his facts quite right. For one thing, once the two flashing lights appear on the 2012, you have quite a bit more range left, as much as 10miles. He was a little more congenial when Brammo paid for him to test their Empulse, although not much. He told them there wasn't enough ground clearance (as if that's going to be something easy to fix). LOL.

The year over year improvement in performance and range is the most impressive to me. This could be used as a commuter bike primarily, short recreational trips would be a nice plus, but definitely not intended as a long range tourer.

I'm just glad we are seeing some newer options and improvemt in the technology that may lead to more cost effective option in the future.

From PG&E, my average price per kWh is $0.14, so that works out to $1.60 per charge at my home. $1.60 per -insert real world range here-. That's certainly lower $/mile than my GTS, but not to the point that it's outrageous.

I ran some numbers last year when considering a Chevy Volt purchase and concluded that the car just wasn't for me, given my electricity rates, e- only range on the vehicle vs. my avg. daily commute, and so forth.

If I had solar panels on my roof, OR if the purchase prices come way down on these bikes, it'll make the "break even" point come much earlier. That said, I understand that the majority of early adopters of this technology aren't doing it to save money, but rather to make a statement of support of the technology and/or movement with their purchase.

Next year BMW is supposedly bringing their electric scooter to market. It will be interesting to see what, if anything they add to the electric bike market...storage, range, etc.

Unfortunately, range from Li is just about played out unless they come up with a breakthrough. Even though it is light compared to lead acid, the weight is still significant for longer range bikes. Most likely the major improvement will continue in charging times. Regenerative breaking doesn't do much either. California leads the way for electric motorcycles with their number of charging stations and rebates. Colorado has a good rebate too. I would definitely commute on an electric bike in California if I lived there. Lane spliting helps a lot too. It would get you to work a lot faster and the heavy traffic would give you great range because the freeway traffic isn't very fast in most cities.

They are putting a modicum of storage space in the 2013 Zero S, but nothing like a scooter.

Re: break even point with electric motorcycles: there is none. The initial cost is far too high for that. Plus they depreciate fast, plus they tend to have expensive fixes. You just gotta not mind paying dearly to ride quiet and locally polution free to compare with anything in the ICE world of similar power. My $4800 Ninja 300 goes faster and of course much much farther than a $19,000 electric motorcycle.

Does there have to be a break even point? What about simply not wanting to use petroleum fuel?

True. When I said, "break even", I should have qualified the statement to mean "the point at which the savings from not buying gas catch up to the increased purchase price" (over something comparable). I wasn't implying I was concerned, or even remotey believed, there would ever be a point at which the bike "pays for itself," solely in gas savings...

So I assume you own one, and park it right next to your Nissan Leaf?

Yep! Actually, nope. I would love to own both a Zero and a Leaf, as a matter of fact.

When I got into Beijing, three weeks ago, the biggest change that I saw was how few pedal cycles there are now, and how many scooters.

Then I noticed that most of the scooters didn't have silencers/mufflers - they were electric.

Specs and performance similar to a 50cc moped with a range of about 40 miles and a 30 MPH top speed. Cost, about £700 ($1000).

Perfect for my daily commute.

Sadly, it seems that they haven't got type approval in Europe so cannot be registered for road use here in the UK. But I'm sure it won't be long...

Bob

I still don't quite get the media and consumers' obsession with charging stations and recharging times with so much effort at trying to get electrics to be something that they are never going to be good at. What they are good at is providing a specific, daily range and at-home fueling and low-cost operation for the purpose of commuting and errand running.

Of course, we all seem to agree, that the present, initial price is the most prohibitive factor, but I for one, unless their is a major breakthrough in fuel storage, don't ever see electrics taking the place of 300 plus-range ICEs, because, even though these long-range e-vehicles can be designed, the cost and weight will always be too high. As for these proposed, elaborate, recharging infrastructures, this just doesn't seem logical to compete with conventional fuels. However, I still think these e-vehicles still have their place if the cost for Li batteries can be brought down, as most families own more than one vehicle anyway.
In my situation, my BV350 could easily be replaced by a e-scooter with current technologies and corresponding ranges and performances, but the price would have to be roughly half of current prices for such a conceptual machine.

Careful, playing with sticks, someone always gets poked.

Gee, thanks Dad.

No sticks were involved. My point was simple: the poster to whom I was responding seemed to be saying that the goal of not using fossil fuel was lofty enough that spending too much money wasn't an issue. His response shows that cost is in fact an issue, or he'd be driving one himself.

That's just the real world at this point in the technology life cycle, the cost doesn't yet justify switching from fossil fuel, even for many of those who consider it beneficial. So no, just the satisfaction of not using fossil fuel is not enough, at least not yet.

It clearly is for some people, or I wouldn't see Nissan Leafs every day on my commute. They're getting to be fairly common around here.

and what happens if you push the wrong button on the handle bars....

Nope. I didn't feel poked by this comment. And, true, cost is *almost always* an issue. I cannot afford any $15K motorcycle (or car or shotgun or...), right now, electric or otherwise. The gas-powered bike I have now was purchased long before Zero made bikes, as far as I know.

Once our family's vehicles reach what we think are their ends-of-useful life, we'll look at electric vehicles. I think electric vehicles are cool, and the way of the future, and as soon as I can get one, I will, even if they cost more up front.