Modern Vespa

theres is general misconception on these forums about these engines. they arent made by two different manufactures. they are both manufactured by Piaggio. the GT200 come with a "leader engine" and the GTS 250 comes with "quazar engine" .but these engines share many if not most of the same parts. the cases are the same. the heads are the same. transmission covers the same. the only major change on the engine was the crank stroke internally . externally the 250 was fuel injected and the 200 carbureted. but longblocks are same footprint. if I had a gt200 with blown engine, I would source a 250 longblock and bolt that in using intake mani and carb from 200 engine. easy peasy upgrade. would make no sense to source another 200 longblock when they cost the same in used market.

Ahem. This seems more than a bit misguided.

There's no confusion about who makes those engines. They're all Piaggio engines, each with a different family name. Nobody here that I know of is confused about that point. And for the record, it's QUASAR, not quazar.

There is some parts interchange. The transmission covers mostly interchange, though there are minor differences in bushings and the hole for the kickstart lever on some versions. Other parts don't interchange at all. I have four engine carcasses in my shop right now -- both LEADER and QUASAR varieties. I can tell you with certainty that the engine cases are not the same between the LEADER and QUASAR families.

I have the air cooled 125, 150 and watercooled 200, 250 , and 300. maybe your definition of same is different than mine. the 300 engine can bolt right in place of the 125. same footprint.

Mr/Mrs jerryd - what is a 300 'super super'? Enquiring minds want to know...

Although the casting may me very close, the finished product is not the 'same'.

Check the starter.

There is not a bendix on the 250, and the case is not finished for one.

The alternator is completely different, same with the water pump and the ECU/CDI pickup.

As for bolting up, you are correct.

But then you need a wiring harness....ECU....fuel tank/pump...coil....instrument cluster, its quite a list to do the conversion.

What a strange post.

R

Not long for *this* world methinks...

The strange nut that connects the handlebar to the seat is completely interchangeable.

except, no.

voltage regulator. ecu. wiring harness. Coil. etc.

yes, it technically will mount. But having actually done that exact mod and ridden 11something thousand miles on that new bike/engine combination, I can tell you that is categorically not how it is done.

The front mounting point of all those engines is the same, yes. And the cases for the LEADER engines can be configured as an air-cooled LX variety or a liquid cooled GT variety. That's quite a far cry from: In fact, the heads are not the same between the air cooled and the liquid cooled varieties. The air cooled ones have two valves, the liquid cooled ones have four valves, just as a start.

In fact, the heads are not the same between the GT200 and the GTS250. They are similar and have the same bolt pattern, but they are most assuredly not the same. The GT200 head (for instance) has a passage for a secondary air system that the GTS250 does not. There are also substantial differences in the way the cooling inlets and outlets are configured between the two types of head.

In fact, the top end of a GT200 will not fit onto a set of GTS250 cases.

In fact, the rear hub of the GT200 is completely different than the GTS250/300, as the LX/GT variety (the "LEADER") has the ability to be configured in a 10" or a 12" configuration. The GTS ("QUASAR") engine lacks that ability. And I should point out that the rear hub assembly is a part of the engine case, too.

The LEADER has an internal starter motor. The QUASAR has an external starter motor.

Shall I go on?

Not to mention the fact that the stators between the two bikes are completely different, thus requiring everything else to be changed over along with the engine.

And then there's the method of sensing TDC between the two engines...

Very odd initial post.

You guys have no idea what you are talking about!

Nor do you know how to run a forum!

Right, now that that is out of the way, make space for me a the bar. Jess, you are in my seat!

Very odd, indeed.

Hey Jess, can we get an Emoticon that is drinking?

Smoking?

I just assume everyone always is.
You guys are all drunk 24/7, its not just me, right?

Great thread to use the "Just walk away" button.

Jess, can you extend that feature to auto-post a snarky reply?

To be fair, my W@H day today has included something along the lines of 4 beers. Hmmmmmnnnn.

you need to reread thread title. I never said air cooled heads are same as water cooled. The malossi head and upgraded cylinder fits both engines. To me that justifies saying heads are same. I think you are weird for wanting to argue the small changes that can be worked around. again you need to reread the intent of original post. cause you are just being weird here. where did I say or infer there would even be a reason to try that. I clearly indicated the strokes are different. so you cant swap from 200 to 250 or 250 to 200. but this is not even close to point of the conversation. the question is can you use a 250 longblock in a gt200 without swapping to fuel injection. if you would stick to reasons why it cant be done or would be difficult to do THAT would be helpful to the conversation. rear hubs, brake disc and brake setup is identical between the gt200 and gts 250. and thus perfectly interchangable. the air cooled leader 125, 150 has a wheel with integral hubs, you must be drunk to make this statement. you got something right. please do. I am sure everyone is entertained. it will sure get you closer to that 28,000 post count you are after. wow do you do anything else but troll on here??

Uh-oh!

Jerry - I suggest that you, uh, apologize profusely if you want to hang around more than a few nanoseconds after Jess sees your response...

This. A lot of it.

Also: I Busted the Lambretta.

While the heads are clearly the same or similar casting the machining for the bypass plumbing is quite a bit different. Malossi adds quite a bit to their head to make it adaptable to both.

"longblock" is kind of a meaningless idea here but I assume you mean "cases, cylinder, and head". The issue with trying to use a 250 (or 300) engine with a carburetor is that on the injected engine the ECU is a part of the throttle body. On the bikes with a carb you have a single pickup on the flywheel to trigger the ignition. These flywheels and ignition parts to not interchange between the 250 and 200 as the former runs in an oil bath and the later does not (part of the cases not being the same).

As to the rear hub, or to put a finer point to it the gear case, sure the wheel, hub disk and caliper are the same between the 200 and 250 but the point that was being made is that the cases are VERY different here. The LEADER engine can be setup for 10 or 12 in wheels and the 12in can be setup with drum or disk. The primary gears (and kits) of all the LEADER engines are interchangeable but the secondary gears depend on the gear case, hub, and wheel. The QUASAR engine can ONLY be configured in the 12in disk setup making it a difficult fit to most bikes that came with a LEADER engine.

You said this: The statement of "the heads are the same" is provably false. In fact, the only two Vespa engines that share the same head (that aren't actually the same engine) are the QUASAR 250 and the QUASAR 300. The head found on the LX125/150 is different than that found on the GT200, and the GT200 head is different than the head found on the GTS250/300. How do I know? Because I've taken apart the GT200 and GTS250 heads, down to bare metal, and put them back together again.

Claiming that I need to re-read the thread title is a rather poor rebuttal here, since the thread title says "water cooled leader and quazar engines". The head on the LEADER liquid cooled engine is not, in fact, the same as the head on the QUASAR engine. You couldn't actually put a GT200 head on a GTS250 without quite a bit of additional work. Malossi has done some clever design work to allow the same head to work on either cylinder, but even then the Malossi head has to be configured for the specific application. How do I know this? Because I have installed the Malossi V4 head on both the GTS250 and the GT200. I currently am rebuilding a Malossi V4 head on my GTS250 race bike, having largely abused the crap out of it thus far. I was perhaps the first person on the English-speaking world to have installed the Malossi V4 head on a bike, with a complete review posted here. I then installed a Malossi V4 head on a GT200 engine, despite a complete lack of instructions from Malossi for that particular engine, and posted a complete project report here. You're welcome to read those two threads, and then come back and tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Go on. We'll wait. Again, a very poor rebuttal. The title is "water cooled leader and quazar engines", including the misspelling of the QUASAR engine family. You said (I will remind you once again): They are not. Your statement is false. Well, there was this: Again: false, false, and almost true. The cases are not the same between the LEADER and the QUASAR engines. The heads are not the same between the LEADER and the QUASAR engines. The transmission cover is the same, but only in one direction -- you can put a GT200 transmission cover on a GTS250, but not the other way around, unless you know which bushing to press into the cover to accommodate the starter gear. That wasn't stated as a question. If it had been stated as a question, we might be having a different conversation than the one we're having right now. Had you asked this question, I would have told you: no, a straight swap won't work. If you had been polite, I would have told you why, in as much detail as you cared to absorb, and even how you might get around the issues.

Now, after you've doubled down on cocksure, not so much. Again, false. I've disassembled -- and re-geared -- both. The LEADER engine has a very distinct rear hub that differs substantially from that of the GTS250/300. They might appear the same from the outside, but they are geared differently on the inside, and the gears are configured differently as well. It does have an integral hub. The point that you've missed is that the same engine cases serve both uses (which I took pains to point out) through some clever design by Piaggio. With a different hub cover and gears arranged in a different fashion, the same LEADER engine cases can be used for an air-cooled 10" drum-brake LX125/150 and a liquid-cooled 12" disc-brake GT200. It's a neat trick. A friend of mine (and respected member here) has actually used this fact to his advantage in order to put a GT200 engine into an LX frame. And I assure you, it did not resemble a straight bolt-up, as you so boldly allege. I got all of it right, actually. Nope. Just that.

I like you Jerry.

It takes "je ne sais quoi" to arrive and make wild ass demonstratively wrong statements and then call the owner of the site a troll for trying to disabuse you of your incorrect notions.

I'm impressed.

This fits well here....

"Real wisdom is to know the extent of your ignorance".

Stick around, your entertaining.

XOXO

R

Crikey, Jess. Any more laconic and you'd fit right in down under*. This has been a fun thread to read ...



* Texan: Well, our spread is sooo big it takes all day on my best horse just to get to the front gate!

Aussie: Yair. We had a horse like that once ...

Those Aussie pricks stole Phar Lap from us. You all know that, right?

So Jerryd, what's your opinion on guns?

Nonono, that's cheating. Let him do it the hard way. It's funnier that way.

I will be back to this thread with pictures to show jess is the idiot here. the bottom line for me is these engines are similar enough to do the swap I refer to. obviously from this thread no one has done the swap . most likely because there are so few decent mechanics on here. I myself modify complex turbo charged cars for very high output. far, far more complex than super simple scooter platform . this is just a break from madness for me. a toy platform. I have nothing to gain here proving you wrong. but will do it just for fun.

the 250 longblock can be used in the gt200 while retaining the the carb and cdi setup. FAR easier and cheaper than doing the swap to fuel injection. pics of how its done will follow.

Been socially inept long?

Mind your manners, Jerry. Calling the admin an idiot isn't likely to win you any bonus points. Actually, someone has. One of my clubmates swapped a GTS250 engine into a GT200 frame. I actually helped him a little bit, but he checked in earlier in this thread to indicate that he had done it. So yes, of course it can be done, though it's quite a bit more complex than you make it out to be. In a 12" configuration, the engines are remarkably similar from a physical standpoint. But that's where the similarities end. That's where most of the parts interchangeability ends as well.

And I will remind you once again that you are on record as saying "the cases are the same. the heads are the same. transmission covers the same. the only major change on the engine was the crank stroke internally" which is complete bullshit. I could tell by your nonstandard use of the term "longblock", which is a term heard in the hot rod world but definitely not in the scooter world. Be my guest. I've already been around enough scooter engine swaps to know what the problems are. As with cars, bolting up the engine is only the simplest, most basic starting point. Making the engine actually run in the new environment is quite a bit harder. I am amused to note that you've been whittling down your initial bold statements to this one very simple one, ignoring my reminders about what your original post ACTUALLY said. In order to save face, you're going to attempt to prove me wrong by proving the one thing that was never at issue to begin with. Wheee! Congratulations, Jerry! You're now down to "the engine bolts up", and in fact, you're right: you can bolt up a GTS250 engine into a GT200 frame. You can even retain the carb. I know how.

Now please explain to the class how you're going to get the CDI to fire. Maybe then I'll take you seriously. Until then, you're just pissing in the wind about bolt-up while you backpedal on all your other ridiculous statements. Proving that the engine bolts up does nothing to alleviate all your other bullshit statements, so before you go declaring victory, you've still got quite a bit more bullshit to account for.

Especially this one:

As a shifty Vespa only owner, I wasn't initially going to bother with this thread. So glad I was bored and looked in. Turned my boredom into roaring laughter. I'll let jerryd figure out why.

Uh, yes. I have.

And, no. What you describe will not work.

As Jess says. Try getting the engine to fire.

Admittedly I'm a remarkably mediocre mechanic, and I'm the last one to brag. That said: I've done it, you're theorizing, and you're wrong.

It's ok to theorize. It's good. Leads to new things. You're also wrong, others have already done it and know you're wrong, so there's no real need to keep going. When a theory is wrong you refine and adjust and try again. No shame in that.

Just because I have seeing a 200 or even a 250 engine wasted, I want to help.

First, you do know that the 200 can match the 250 in performance, right?

The BV250 did have a carb and a different stator. That stator can be used on the GTS250 engine. You can't use the BV engine directly as the case is longer.

Also, The air hose from the carb/throttle body to the airbox is a different length between the 200/250.

As a final tip, A good trick when trying to figure out what parts are "the same" or different is to use the parts books to compare numbers. Gaskets can be particularly insightful.

Good luck,

The BV250 stator and flywheel would be needed, (PN# 58048r & 58049r), even then you would have to assume the stator covers are machined to accept both type of pickups or you would end up replacing the cover too.

But when luck is running with you, straw will do for brains...

R

Normally, I'd be eager to help someone figure out how to do this swap. I must admit some disappointment here, though -- you guys have just given him everything he needs to declare a shallow victory, despite having been utterly wrong about every. single. detail.

Way to go, guys.

Ultimately Jess I think the forum should be here to help people out. I find this thread highly entertaining and the OP questionable in his approach but really it's you who have won in that the ultimate goal of MV is still being accomplished even if it is in a less than desirable manner of interrelating.

I agree. I'd just prefer not to help cocksure newbies who think they know everything and make grand statements rather than asking simple questions.