Modern Vespa

Alright, I want to run this past the hive mind to see what might come out of it. Here are all the details as I know them. I don't know anything further, and nothing sound "off" before, so I can't really provide any more info than I do below.

I welcome any and all ideas as to what may have happened here, since I'm just looking for possible causes so it can be troubleshot.

Dropped my MP3 400 back off at the local shop to have them look again at the brakes, which still felt like the fronts needed bleeding. They did bleed them again, though they found nothing, and then went to do a test ride.

The tech rode it down into a nearby park and around for about 4 miles. On the way back, he stated he heard a loud "pop" (their terms, not mine, so interpret as you will), and that the motor died. Upon pushing it the rest of the way back and looking into it, they did a compression test. Said compression test yielded a compression of about 10 - it should be over 100, according to them (they didn't name an exact number and I don't know what it would be). So something is clearly wrong.

ouch, what did they say they would do?

This post was not quite
What we were hoping to see
Try again, perhaps?

Not much. They're too busy to really take on this kind of heavy-duty teardown, diagnosis and repair right now. It would be at least August sometime. That doesn't really fly for me, so Ponydrvr is going to retrieve it from them Tuesday and see if he can figure out what happened and whether it's within his abilities to help correct. Obviously I'm going to lend my muscle, time and effort if and where I can, but... Granted, which is why I'm not looking for a solid diagnosis, just ideas as to what could generate these symptoms. It's more of a lack of knowledge and a lack of the time to gain it at this point in my life, both of which being reason that I'm very lucky to have Ponydrvr here in town...

No compression points to either broken rings/piston land, or cam/valve issues. Neither is good...

Sorry.

I'd probably pull the valve cover and check to see if the cam chain was still intact and that the cam was still indexed to the crank correctly. Then work from there...

Good luck.

John

If it's the valves, Ponydrvr will probably find that fairly quick, and it would be nice to have the problem at least pinned down.

I'm looking on Craigslist locally for possible backup options in case this ends up being something that will take a good while to correct. MUST...HAVE...PTW...there's actually a couple darn nice looking classic Honda automatics on there, a 1978 Hondamatic 400, and a 1977 CB750. Also a 2008 Legacy 250 in gorgeous shape...

Might be an ebay motor listed still? I rode the shit out of a cb350 30 yrs ago.

i got a good 400 cylinder and piston with rings here did 16.000km / 9000 miles 200.- including shipping

Thanks Maksor. Depending on what is found, I will keep that in mind.

My philosophy - they touched it last.
I dunno what kinda lame-ass excuses they're giving. You brought in a running bike for a brake job and they hand you back a busted bike.
If you let anyone else mess with it then they can wash their hands of it.
Just my 2 centavos
Oh - and August is national take off a month in Italy - you do NOT want to wait until then to get the bike looked at.

I'm with you. They had it, they broke it. And if they can't fix it for 2 or 3 months, it ought to be up to them to provide a suitable loaner. Or if they want to use their shop insurance to pay someone else to fix it, I suppose that's okay too. (this is a business, for crying out load - not your neighbor )

As an aside, those old Hondamatic transmissions were nothing to write home about. If an older Honda calls to you as an interim bike, I'd go with a standard transmission. If that is not your thing, there are plenty of used Maxis around (Majestys, Silverwings, Burgmans, etc) plus the Piaggio/Aprilia 500 or 250 - for those used to Piaggio bikes.

One would think that any responsible business would have insurance for something like this. I have to think that the technician was having a good old time when the engine went.

You might want to check for a salvage bike periodically... you might get lucky and find one in your area. Doesn't look good today, but the inventory constantly changes.

http://www.salvagebikesauction.com/make_by/Salvage-Piaggio-for-Sale

Cheers!

John

My first thought was it is the shop's responsibility to get it repaired; but if they hadn't done any work related to the failure and weren't riding in a manner to cause the failure; which I find unlikely on an MP3. I imagine their position is that it had just reached the point of catastrophic failure when it happened to be in their care and I think the law might agree with them. If you had loaned a bike for their use a bailment would apply so they would have to return the bike in the same condition; but I don't think that applies when they are doing a test ride for your safety. I think cdwise and possibly others on the General Discussion side are lawyers; it might be smart to ask one of the lawyers for an opinion.

When you pull the pin on a hand grenade and toss it to someone it's not the guy that catches it's fault if it blows up in his hands!

Damn; I spent all that time trying to put the situation in legal terms and then you make an analogy that describes it in one sentence; and it was funny too.

Well said Yamamatt!
I will have to use that sometime!

I don't think anyone at the dealer rode the scoot rough or anything. I have been there several times and the workers there are all good people.
I think this was something that was getting ready to happen, and did when the shop guy rode it.
Side cutter, I thought you said the engine was running rough is why you had taken it in? Not for the brakes? I'm confused...

i think its a broken valve got them also in stock 75.- all 4 incl shipping

I fully agree with BubbaJon .... don't let anyone else try to do anything to it. The repair shop messed up your scoot, they should fix it at no cost to you.

Have you checked with an attorney to find out what your rights are? You should.

I would recommend any tech. NOT to work on BubbaJon"s and FunkyMonkey"s bike !!! Sounds like they would try and sue you if you even breathed on there bikes.

Yes, but what if you tossed the guy a grenade with the pin still in it, and he stupidly pulled the pin. Well, that's not your fault, is it?

If they are riding the scooter at the time of the failure it's their problem, not yours. They take responsibility for it when you hand them the keys. That's why they have insurance.

Reminds me of the time when a friend brought his Fiat 850 in to the dealer for routine service. When he went to pick up the car he found that someone had stolen the seats. Mechanic pointed to the sign that read "Not Responsible for Items Left in the Car."

Took them to court, won easily. They ARE responsible, for everything that happens once they have taken possession of your property. This is true regardless of what the "signs" say or the small print on the back of the work order.

FWIW, I know where the tech was riding, it's a lovely park and I've ridden it a few times myself on the scenic loop they have. Everything there and in between is 10-35MPH, maximum, and most of it is 25MPH, and pretty busy. So he couldn't have been going at it anywhere near as hard as I would on a normal day back and forth across town.

Plus, what a couple others have said, I'd have a hell of a time getting them to actually admit to anything. Unless something BLEEDINGLY obvious can be found, like proof that they maybe failed to bleed the coolant lines properly and seized the engine as a result, I doubt I'll get anything out of them. It was just bad timing. I don't think it was a bad coolant refill though, at least not obviously, because the bike temp gauge never went past the normal "just above the center" level a single time since it was serviced there. No, haven't had any engine problems for near a year, and Sloans fixed those. The cutting out was a bad wire, and the stalling after was an issue with the computer settings. Once they did the update and a few little adjustments that was solved. The shop guys thought it was running a bit loud, but I have it modded with the Ponydrvr airbox mod and the Malossi dual-layer filter, which probably explains that, because it never changed volume that I noticed - and I've noticed noises and such from the bike with my earbuds in, music on, on the freeway.

The original visit was to get something done that was relatively simple as a way to feel the shop out, and I was told they should be competent for this, so... I'll look into this concept, but I'm pretty sure they can't be held responsible unless it can be shown that it was something they did that led to the failure. And really, are they going to admit to that? No. One way or another I would expect another mechanic to be involved in that process. It's just like if I had given a shop my phone to repair, and while there, the battery suffered a self-destruct due to a design flaw (see: Dell Laptops, iPhones that have done this kind of failure). Not their fault, in any rational sense.

If liability laws were only based on who would admit what. nobody would ever be responsible for anything!

Probably true; but in this case working on the brakes shouldn't cause engine failure and a safety check of the brakes with a top speed of 35 mph shouldn't either.

I've seen shops "check brake jobs" by doing burnouts. Hit the front brakes, rev the engine, let the rear wheel burn for a second or two - yeah, front brakes hold!

Of course, banging around off the rev limiter hard with no warm-up isn't too good...

It might have been a "just time for something to go wrong" thing, but that's what insurance is for. It covers those freak things like a customer's engine blowing when it's taken out for a test ride to check something else. An up-and-up shop would offer to fix it.

This sounds like a repair that has the potential to cost quite a lot so maybe they'll be open to discounting if you keep cool and ask politely.

If the shop has a decent reputation and it sounds like they do then the repairs are your responsibility. Timing is everything and this sounds [to me] like whatever was ready to blow just picked that moment; bad luck and all that. I think everyone here has turned on a light switch only to have the bulb blow. That's what this is.

I know there are some who would sic the lawyers on them but I don't agree with that approach; I think we have too much of that going on in our society already. In the end it's your scooter and you're the one who has to pay for maintenance & service; this was just crappy timing. Time for a brew...

LL75 8)

You just drop in for entertainment? You obviously have nothing useful to add.

I dunno Dan, all this talk about "insurance paying for it" may or may not be based on facts. Unless you and the others who ascribe to that solution are truly informed about such matters it may be bad advice you're passing around. Are you actually knowledgeable about insurance coverage for this type of occurrence or is this more of the wishful thinking approach?

Inquiring minds need to know...

LL75

Jesus Jon...I think I peed my pants!

LL75

Yep - all shops have to carry insurance just to get a license. Hell, when I ran tournaments for Nintendo I had to provide proof of a million dollars in liability insurance with specifics on what was covered just to rent a venue. My dad was both a professional mechanic and a service manager for major dealers. They have insurance to cover all sorts of accidents and mishaps like the mechanic forgot to put oil back in, some idot dropped the lift too fast, car rolled off a ramp. Now they don't *like* to use it because they also have deductables and their premiums can go up if they exceed so much in claims. With cars it's usually what kind of car and driver that determines how they treat them. A $65,000 Mercedes? Gosh we're so sorry Herr Doktor - here's your Lambo loaner while we make that Mercedes good as new. To the guy with the Subaru - sorry bud, we don't have a clue how teh engine fell out while we were flushing the radiator - but hey, we'll cut you a deal on the labor.

OK, so here's where it stands. Seems like a good theory may be that they improperly did the coolant replacement and may not have bled it completely or correctly. That could, conceivably, result in a "top side" air bubble causing overheating in upper areas, while the temp sensor for the engine sat there happy as a clam within circulating fluid, giving no sign of issue. Can't prove that right now, but it seems like a pretty good guess since that's the only motor-related work that was done by them.

That said, the current plan is to retrieve it and take it to another, trusted (by both me and Ponydrvr) authorized Vespa shop, which shall remain nameless at this moment. A full examination with a written report and pictures of what they find to be the problem will be requested, but they won't be told where it was or given any guesses so as not to influence the results. This should preserve the ability to point fingers appropriately, if necessary. Once the diagnosis is back, I'll go from there.

now thats a good plan.

A totally independent diagnosis by a different Piaggio dealer.

Presumably one that does not read MV, or the plan won't work so well .

I am knowledgeable about commercial insurance... and litigation, etc.. 1st off, the burden of proof in any court is always on the plantiff to prove negligence.. so now what do you have? Yes there was a bailment as soon as you gave the bike to them.. a high degree of care was established .. so now prove that they didn't live up to that obligation..
Supposedly.. a shop will carry Garage Keepers Legal Liability (GKLL).. this is different than regular commercial liability coverage which excludes property in the care, custody & control of the Insured (the shop).. so a need is established for GKLL which covers property while in the Care, custody & control of the shop.. Now here is where it gets dicey.. a shop can decide to purchase either Legal Liability coverage or direct coverage for their GKLL. Direct is expensive, Legal Liability, not so much... Direct just pays for damage to property without regard to legal Liability.. Liability only pays if the shop is at fault... as an example, if a shop is full of cars that are burned when lightning hits the shop building.. there is no legal liability on the part of the shop, so the Legal GKLL will not pay, while the direct will pay..
It is pretty common fora garage to only buy legal and not direct because of the cost savings which is great until there is a loss that is not covered. I saw one loss, that was denied when a customers car was stolen from a fenced, locked lot. 1st time it had happened.. The theory was that the shop had done what they could to keep a theft from happening and had no prior history of thefts so they were not negligent and the vehicle owner could not prove that they should have done something they did not do, to protect against a theft.
so, clear as mud now? Gotta be careful with over simplification, the world doesn't work that way..

That's certainly true when lawyers become involved...

Just want to point out that the shop did go out of their way to try and help me with what I took it in for, hence why I don't want to point any fingers at anyone at this point for causing whatever happened. They did go out of their way to put my MP3 in the front of the line to make sure I would (well, would have, had all gone well) gotten it back Saturday afternoon so I would have it for my daily commute come Monday.

And I definitely don't believe that the tech(s) there abused the MP3 while test-riding, or knowingly did anything to cause the failure to occur when servicing it previously. I'm sure they take pride in doing their work properly.

Just don't want anyone to be harsh on them without cause, which there definitely is not at this point. I am still going to remove it to another shop for investigation and probably repair, but that also has a lot to do with the fact that the local shop is small and very busy, and if this is a major failure, I want to have it already in a shop that can handle it sooner once diagnosed so I can get back on the road ASAP.

Sidecutter - I just want to say kudos for not immediately jumping to the conclusion that this is someone else's fault and they deserve to be sued. Our society has become way too sue happy and way to quick to blame others for everything. Refreshing to see you tackle this without immediately passing the blame. Good luck in your efforts to figure out what is wrong. If your "investigative" shop happens to be near me, and I can help, please let me know.

+1

+1 ditto

-1 from me. While it sounds like a noble sentiment in fact sometimes people bring it on themselves by trying to avoid any responsibility because it'll cost them money. Lemme tell you a true story and my model for a successful business.
When I was stationed in California there was a gas station in Mill Valley run by a guy named Fred. Fred was a multimillionaire and an awesome businessman. He hired only the military guys to run his full service gas station because he felt we had the necessary work ethic - you didn't and you were let go. Simple as that. When I say full service, I mean if the customer came in and needed their ash tray dumped and cleaned, their bike put air in the tires - we did it no questions asked.
One day we started getting calls - people were dropping like flies on the commute into San Francisco. It was quickly determined that all the cars that were dying had been filled from one row - we quickly found we had a tank that had cracked and collected water. Shit.
Now here's where Fred demonstrated true business acumen - he not only paid for each and every person their taxi into and from their work, but also paid to have each and every vehicle towed to the shop where we drained, flushed the fuel system, replaced any and all filters, cleaned the tanks and refilled with gas. One vehicle had a leaking tank and even though he was not a regular customer Fred replaced the gas tank. When the head mechanic, Dick, said that he shouldn't replace the tank as it was unlikely to be our fault Fred said "I will not have anyone saying that I tried to avoid my responsibilities as a business owner - replace it."
Yes those folks had a bad morning but Fred made it right with each and every one at great expense - which of course bear in mind is a tax write off as a loss. Now Fred charged 15 cents more for his gas than anyone else - including the cut-rate joint up the street. But I tell you that you could not beat Fred's customers away with a stick - because he treated them with respect and he assumed all responsibility for his customers and their welfare.
So having seen an excellent business model and the results - I have no sympathy for the businesses that treat their customers like a disposable commodity. Treat them right and you've got a customer for life because you've earned their loyalty. Someone's bike dies while it is in your possession - you had responsibility for that bike. It's not like it was ridden in smoking, coughing and acting like it was on its last legs - it was a perfectly functional bike being taken in for routine maintenance and suffered a major mechanical heart attack while in their possession.