Modern Vespa

I got a question about the front end of my Vespa GTS (2006 model)

I changed the wheel bearings on it because there was a little play on the old ones.
They are non adjustable so the play that's on them is the way it is.
With the new bearings in place the play still feels the same.
With the front wheel off the ground I can "move" the wheel a little bit (like you would do to feel to adjust old tapered ones).

Is that "normal"..??

Also I got a question about changing out the top and bottom steering bearings.
There is already a topic about that: Replacing top and bottom steering bearings
But I just wanted to know how to make the room in the brake hose to get the fork all the way out..??

All this comes form the feeling there is something wrong with the front end of my Vespa.
It improved allot with the malossi shock, but still it feels "loose" or how do I say it..
I used to have an old Piaggio Thyphoon (50cc model) and I was able and felt confident enough to trow it full wack in to almost every corner.
I know that has a normal upside down fork, not a single swing arm, but I also used to have a Peugeot speedfight (don't think they got into the states) that had a single swing arm in the front.
But that felt like on rails, and I never had an unsafe feeling like I get from my GTS now.

I had the dealer drive with it but they don't feel anything wrong with it, but I think that says more about them then about my Vespa.

[edit]
Extra info:
When I let go of the handle bars the GTS swings to the right, and also when I pull on the front brakes really hard it starts to "shake" or "jump" if you get my drift.

I disconnected my brake hose at the handlebar and pulled the front end out with the brake hose and speedo cable in place. Then you can replace the bottom bearings too. It helped me to put the bike back on its wheels when i tightened the top bearing

What condition were the top and bottom steering head races? Do you think it's possible that one or more of the races have been damaged and that is why your are getting play in the steering column?

+1 I wondered the same thing as Shebalba.

About the brake line: we disconnected from the bottom, and drained the fluid. After getting the fork back in place, wheel back on, etc., we went through the process of bleeding the brakes.

I need to translate somethings for my self but here it goes..

First things first...:
My Vespa has ABS so disconnecting the brake lines is something I want to avoid.
Maybe there is a way around it I will look into that.

By steering head races you mean the bearings..??
If so I can not say anything about the state, I took the handlebars off and loosened the whole bearing assembly and pulled the fork out a few inches.
There where no balls missing in both bearings, and the parts where those balls fit into felt okay.
I had not really a good view on the bottom one but I didn't feel anything "strange".
The thing that was strange is that when I put it all back to one and when I fastened the top "nuts" on the bearing it was either "no stearing @ all" (bearings to tight) or there was a little play.

Somehow I feel there is not just something wrong with the bearings alone, but maybe its a good starting point.

I like to do my own work, but I don't always use the right terminology. Until i figure out the names of rhings, I call things do-dads and thingamajigs. If I'm incorrect with my description, I'm sure someone will correct me --I hope they would anyway

Think of the races as the pieces that surround the bearing. Sometimes the damage can be hard to see. A slight groove, or marking even, on the race can cause issues with the steering. In my case, with the column intact, if the front end was lifted up by a person, when the handlebars were turned by another person, from one side to the other, one could feel a slight "catch" -which was the notch.

The is a specified torque for each of the two nuts that sit atop the upper bearing assembly. I don't have the specs in front of me at the moment, but if you tightened it to the point that there was 'no steering at all' then it was way too tight, and you might have damaged the bearings and races.

Another possibility could be (and I'm digging into my downhill mountain bike days) that you somehow damaged the steer tube (the part of the frame that the races sit in) and now that even when the bearing assembly is new and to spec you are still getting the play in the steering.

Did you hit an amazingly large pothole or trailer the scooter over a long distance? Riding with loose steering could also cause the steer tube to stretch or disfigure.

Scootchef:
I do my own repairs also, as a car-mechanic by education I think have the "right luggage" for it..
As far as I could feel there was nothing wrong with the races on the head bearings.
But like I said I didn't replace them, I just loosen the assembly and put new grease on it.

Shebalba:
I heard there is a torque setting for each of the nuts but with out a torque wrench or even the proper adapter to but on a wrench I fasten them the old fashion way.
I put a jack under the scooter so the front wheel was lifted off the ground.
I tightened the first nut until the point I could feel a slight "difference" in the "steering feel" and then gave it a notch back/loose
I put the second nut on to lock the first one in place.
I noticed that tightening the second nut put so much stress on the bottom one the bearings become "to tight".
So I countered that by leaving the bottom nut "a bit to loose" and then locking it up with the second one.

I am working as a service and maintenance engineer for the last 15 years, so I think I got a "good feeling" how to adjust bearings.

The thing that is "bothering me" is that those bearings felt and looked okay, there is no knock or locking section/part in the steering.
That makes me think there is something else wrong with the front end witch "gives me the strange feeling" while riding.
I bought the Vespa second hand, and I am starting to get the feeling it was involved in a crash (small or big no idea).
It could be the front fork is bend in a little bit (a few degrees) witch totally offsets the frames geometric .
But I have no clue how to check that other then "just" replace the entire front end/fork.

You said it feels 'loose.' You don't feel a chatter or any strange vibrations? What shape are your tires in?

No vibrations, or wobble and I changed the tires a few 100 miles ago (both front and back)

I say it feels because there is nothing really wrong to put my finger on but I don't feel as secure on it as I felt on my previous scooters.
The front end feels "unstable" when taking corners, makes me feel like I could loose grip any moment.
When I stick to it and I drive a whole day I finally get the nerve to push it down in the corners until the stand scrapes the pavement.
But when I get back on the next day the first few miles feel unsecure.

I hope I make any sense...

The GTS front end is very sensitive and tyres can make a huge difference to the feel of it. Which front tyre have you got? Have you tried any others?

No. It doesn't make sense that you would indicate that you are having steering problems to a forum, and then after some advice you then inform us that it's really only when you can't scrape the center stand along the ground... something that a small percentage of scooter riders actually accomplish.

Best of luck resolving your steering, and buy a torque wrench.

What I tried to explain is that the feeling is wrong, I can't pin point the cause.
What I did:
I changed the tires, front and back both pirelli GTS
Changed the front wheel bearings
Opened up the steering bearings and checked them and fastened them with out any play and new grease
Tried different tires pressure, sticking with 1.9 bar front and just over 2.1 bar rear
Changed the front shock to a malossi one
Replaced both rear shocks for new stock ones.

What I tried to say was the following.
There is not exactly one thing I can pin the cause on, but it feels unstable when cornering.
Like there is no direct contact between the handlebars and the front tire.
When I say I can push it down in corners eventually is that every ride I have to get over that point of "not feeling" anything and that is not "normal" to me.
I been driving scooters and other sorts of bikes for a very long time now but this is the first "bike" that gives me this feeling and where I cannot pin point the cause.
That I eventually get past the point end just stick it in the corner "all or nothing" is besides my point. That is me getting past the "not feeling anything" point and just going for it.

There has to be a cause for the "not feeling anything" part of my ride.
So I started this thread to see if there is any one here who has the same experience and found the problem. Or to hear that "this" is normal for these Vespa's and I have to live with it.

I didn't mean to insult your willingness to give me advise shebalba, I am very sorry if I gave you that impression.

It sounds like you've done pretty much everything that I could think of trying on your scooter. Have you had a chance to compare against another GTS or two and see if they feel the same? Mine is a little weird as well and suspect not entirely straight and has had minor crashes before I bought it, but I'm pretty used to it by now.

Nope I haven't had the chance to test drive any other GTS.
I could try and see if the local dealer is willing to let me test drive a brand new one.
I posted a similar question like this one on a dutch motor forum, to see if there is any one close by that is willing to let me test drive their scooter (or have them drive on mine) but with no result..

I spend a good part of yesterday morning driving around.
Before I took off I set the front spring to maximum preload and the shock setting to max stiffness.
I checked the tire pressure @ home with my own compressor and to check the reading I also went to a local gas station to check the pressure there.
Set it @ 1.9 bar.

Then I took of and had a good time driving and it all felt okay.....
I have the idea it has to be the "weakness" of the front suspension that is giving me this feeling.
On maximum firmness it seems to handle closely to what I am used to on other bikes.
Yes it shakes some more and on the bad parts of some roads it starts to jump a bit in the front but the over all "feel" is there when I stick it in a corner. ...

Think this asks for more test driving.. 8)

I think I know what you mean about confidence in the front end. I've found the same thing.

Years ago I had an Aprilia SR50 DiTech which, like your old scooters, cornered like it was on rails. Or, to put it another way, like a motorcycle (which I also ride)

I've recently started riding a 250GTS and, whilst its significantly better than my ex's old ET2, it still has very sensitive steering due to the very vertical steering angle compared to 'sports' scooters like you've had before. You can't, for instance, let go of the steering and expect it to go in a straight line, like you could with one of those or with a big bike. That's part of the reason you have such a good turning circle. As a mechanic, you'll be aware of the effects that suspension geometry (caster, camber and toe) has on handling. This is a similar idea, except you can't change these on the Vespa.

I think what you're finding is probably just a feature of the design of the vehicle. You can still hustle them along as you've discovered when you get used to it, it just takes time to get confidence.


Adam

Thanks for your reply Adam,
After a few more test drives, and 2 weeks work-house kilometers the confidence is building. 8)
I have taken the top case of, that improves the high speed stability by 10 times or something.
It also gives a 5 km/h higher topspeed by the way..

I can now drive flat out on the highway with out it feeling like it's gonna wobble off into the first lorry I overtake or the first car that overtakes me for that mater.
The cornering is just something different than "other" bikes and that is what I have to get used to.