Modern Vespa

Hi all,

I have a 1974 Rally recently imported from the UK to Melbourne. Overall the bike is in ok-ish condition, at least to look at, but the engine and other pretty important components seem to need some updating / upgrading etc, so we're going to start in the next week or so.

Plan is to drop the engine and do at least a partial rebuild. I'm hoping / expecting the crank etc to be fine. The Engine on the bike is a 77 p200 replacement one. The reason for this all starting out was jumping gears in 3rd when putting going up hills. the selector Box seems OK, so I'm keen to replace the cruciform and also replace the standard 4th gear with the T5. I'm a big lad so having the large gap between 3rd and 4th is a bit of a pain.

We'll also do a clutch rebuild (it sticks a lot when starting out), replace the pipe with the Sito Plus, replace front and rear shocks (they are very spongy currently and I wanted former shocks anyway as I often have someone on the back, typically my kids!).

The brakes will be checked and replaced where needed, and also looking at updating with the Pinasco 213 kit. that's the plans anyway. I'll try and post some pics on the way through the process as this is the first rebuild I have attempted and I suspect I'll have the odd question about various items I come across.

When I was riding the bike recently, we had a large issue with fouled plugs which "seemed" to be at least partly due to a filthy head and barrel with a LOT of carbon build up in it. Makes me wonder when the last owner did any real maintenance work on the bike. the fouling seemed a lot better afterwards and I was seeing nice brown plugs each time I checked.

The compression "feels" pretty rubbish, but perhaps that is just an excuse to get the 213 kit.

Hopefully in a week or two I'll be running the thing in nicely. That's the plan, but history tells me that each thing I tackle takes about 5 times the time I expected it to take.

Bike is shown below. it;s always good to have a table tennis handy when frustration kicks in!

Cheers

alan

what does it mean that I'm a lurker in my profile? It sounds like I should be hanging around schools with a bag of boiled lollies!

In my experience, the less maintenance the PO did, the better. Less room for someone else to have fucked up.

You can change the crux with the engine in the frame pretty easily.

I thought about doing that (not dropping the engine etc) but then I figured if I have to split the casing I may as well have a good look about and replace anything else that seems a bit on the sad side. The less number of times I have to do the split the better I guess was my thoughts, and not knowing in detail the history of any bike you buy, I just want to make sure everything is in good order.

Welcome and congrats on getting a Rally. As far as being a lurker, dont worry too much, it's just the way Modern Vespa shows how much you've contributed to the site. The more post you spit out, the higher your ranking goes.

Your list of to do's looks pretty good. Definitely do cruciform, gears, new corks in the clutch, de-coke head and piston and get new gaskets all around.

Since you're going to be in there why not change the seals too? Clutch side seals going bad have been a common problem for me. And, just take a peek at the rubber engine mounts and see how they are.

In January a friend of mine bought a Pinasco 213 kit for his 80 P200 and had a rough go around with it. The kit said it would work with a stock P200 crank but it ran pretty rough. He could either switch to a long stroke crank or reprofile the kit. He didn't want to tear into the engine or buy a new crank so he found a machinist who reprofiled the head and cylinder to drop the squish gap from over 3mm to 1 something. Bike supposedly runs well now but it has been a headache.

Pinasco 215 on stock stroke

Inspecting and cleaning the brakes isn't too difficult and is always a good thing to do when you buy used. People do some gnarly things to Vespas and you shouldn't have to find out the hard way what they are.

Good luck on your project and please put up pics for all to enjoy

Thanks for the input. 4 1974 rallys? Envious!

I'll do the seals whilst we're opening the engine up, that does make a lot of sense. It's interesting on the Pinasco kit, I've heard reports that it is a breeze and runs very well, and then you also read about people having a bad time and having to do a lot of work to get it to fit well. I guess we'll see what happens when we do it. Fingers crossed I'll be a former, but i'll expect the latter.

Thanks for the lurker explanation too. I'll definitely get some shots up during the process. Probably with a bunch of questions!

Cheers

Hey hey. From Lurker to member. Nice.

yes but is being a member any better .... thats what me step brother called his ....

Oh. I hadn't thought about that. I feel like a right plonker now!

Very nice scoot man!

Table Tennis... fuck yeah!

Thanks! Table Tennis, the sport of workshops and band rehearsals. Hopefully the bike will still be OK after we get to work on it. Never having dropped a motor, or split a case, I'm expecting some interesting moments in the week to come.
got to love the internet though, a lot of good guides and tips, and of course forums I can ask for help on when I screw something up, or cannot get something to fit, or.........who knows.

OK, so we've started the basic prep stuff and will drop and split Friday or Saturday. Hopefully Friday.

Everything is pretty much disconnected (Cables, Electrics etc). I decided to remove the Carb as I wanted to do the rebuild on this in the next day or so whilst we wait to get the Engine off.

The Oil was drained and I was surprised, well, maybe not surprised, but noticed there was a lot of black muck (carbon I presume?) and some petrol amongst the oil that came out. The oil was only filled about 3 months back following shipping from the UK and has not be ridden too much yet (maybe 200 miles). I guess this is a pretty good indication that splitting the case will provide the extra benefit of replacing all the seals?!

As My head was filthy a few weeks ago when I "decoked' it I'm presuming that may be a cause of some of the black muck? I have no idea. I know I was very careful when i decoked to prevent anything being left behind. Anally careful!

Curious as to what to expect when the cases are split!

Nice one. Rallys are friggin' gorgeous. Good luck.

Thanks Bobo. Luck is going to be needed I suspect. So far so good. Really looking forward to seeing how the ride quality feels after the work is complete. Hopefully it will end up being a very good tourer. That's the theory anyway.

All set for the drop, and then the catcher (or protector of the engine) shot through to a sick wife. Sigh.

Soooo, the ties have it now. I'm pretty sure we're all secure and the engine wont be going anywhere without some careful loosening.

The goodies are all here. Brakes, Shocks, Pinasco kit, exhaust, clutch plates and bush, t5 4th, cruciform and other bits and bobs to see us through. Hopefully we are all set to go. 8)

Now it is time for the late night beer. I'll re-tackle the clutch tomorrow.

We have done "some" of the work today.

Firstly, the bastard clutch nut finally moved and loosened. I've had a bit of an issue with the clutch jumping on first and fine the rest of the time. the cork plates are pretty black, but the bush and main components all seemed good. I'll still replace the bush, springs and of course the plates and rebuild in the next few days as other things progress. I presume rebuilding the clutch after doing the normal soaking in oil etc is fine if it is a week or two before the bike is back together? I cannot see that anything would go amiss.

The flywheel etc is off. I do have a question on the stator. I have not "removed" it and have it still connected on the wires, mainly cos I am a tad uncomfortable with play about with anything "electrical". If we keep it out of harms way is that Ok? Or should I bite the bullet and get it off completely?

Everything else is off for the main part, and I'll split in the morning. Noticed a weird looking part of the case at the top of the case where the cylinder sits (see below). The case "looks" like it was put on not straight, but the numbers seem to line up ok and the bottom of the case looks OK. Is this normal?? It looks odd, although I guess the cylinder and gasket are across that area and so I should be sealed ok.

I am glad I order the Pinasco as the piston looks to have seen better days. And the cylinder was a bit grimy as well. I leave that for Scooter labs to sort.

So tomorrow, we'll split and then tackle the 4th gear, cruciform, brakes and shocks. I hope. I'm rubbish at remembering to take photos unless I have a question, but I'll make sure I have more tomorrow.

I was going to put in a new front suspension spring as it never felt stiff enough when I rode the bike before. Is this an easy job? Having cursed the design of the rear suspension top nut and needing go-go gadget fingers to do anything around there, I'm hesitant to do too much there as I can find sfa about removing and replacing the spring anywhere.

Glad I had young sir about here to help. I love the fact that I have an almost 14year old getting in to the whole engine / scooter thing.

Alan, have you tried contacting your local scooter clubs? You might find a lot of advice/assistance there.

http://www.vespaclubmelbourne.com.au

http://scootercommunity.com.au/forums

Mike

Hi Mike

Yup, I am a fully paid up member of the VCOM!! I was going to also nag a couple of the other guys on vintage bikes for some input here too, but I also like this forum as the hints/tips are valuable and the folk forgiving!

OK, we had some progress.

We managed to split the cases OK. It was actually harder work than I expected to get the buggers apart, but the handy tips on scooter help and this forum got it done. the key was really getting the tiny move in the case which was a mix of carefully tapping the case carefully to get it to move a bit, then juggling the case apart whilst ensuring the kickstart is depressed slightly.

The information sources I used for a great part of this was from

http://www.scootermercato.com/Garage/Tech-Tips/Engine-Disassembly

Once apart, I quickly did the 4th gear and cruciform changes.

Now, I need the second feeler gauge to check the large gap I measured between the Shim and the gears....detailed below....

Cheers

Nice work mate and cool photos. Good luck with it.

thanks Bobo. Mucking about with the suspension and rakes etc hopefully later today. All in all, enjoying this project.

I really hope that you are going to use a long stroke crank with the pinasco kit. Youll also need to buy/machine another head if you have the old style pinasco head.
Good luck with your project.

Thanks bholinath, was planning on sticking to the standard crank with a Worb head. Seemed the easier option.

That kit is a dog with the stock stroke crank. It was designed for a 60mm stroke.

The cases are supposed to be like that with the lip.

Thanks travis. I did hear about the weirdness on the case, but was still surprised when I first saw it. glad to get second confirmation.
I keep reading / hearing different things on the Pinasco. We'll see how it performs first up with the standard crank, matched ports and the Worb5 head. There seems to be so much about this kit, some folk saying it needs the 60mm crank, some that it is fine on the standard as long as ports are matched and the head is corrected, and some that it depends on which version of the kit you have. I'm just keen to get the bike back on the road. Spring is coming, winter has been quite mild and some good riding days have soared by whilst the bike is in pieces.

ok, not a lot of action as life gets in the way sometimes.

Whilst the case is off having ports matched and I wait on some needed bits to arrive I figured I should have a squizz at the speedo and cable as it has never worked since I got the bike.

I think I can see why after having just a cursory look at the lack of attachment to the speedo gear.

So, it looks like the cable was there, but nothing was attached to anything. I ordered a new one, and will try and do the replacement business before I fly out on Sunday. I did have a stupid question though, given that what I had in my set-up was so minimal, the new cable comes with bits and bobs loose, and a connection at one end on the cable already. I'm presuming the existing connection is for the speedo, and the bits and bobs that are not on the cable yet go on the end to be attached to the speedo gear??? Or have I got that completely wrong?

Thanks

Sounds right about the cable. One end screws into the bottom of your speedometer and the other to your gear in the hub. The extra bits probably are a dust boot and maybe an extra collar.

One way I've heard of people testing the speedometer outside of the headset is to hook the cable to a drill and spin the internals and see if the speedometer registers. Might be good to check it.

Thanks Mj. We fought the good fight and got the new outer and inner in OK, and tested the speedo / cable with the drill and looked perfect. Unfortunately time is too short to finish checking the speedo gear next, but I'll do this in a few weeks when I get back to Melbourne.

By then the engine should be ready to put back together, I have the jets I figured I'd start with on the Carb and can get that rebuilt, the clutch will be rebuilt and the bike can be put back together. I'm sure we'll stumble enough times so will keep posting pics up.

Added a note to a tip on replacing speedo cables, the guide at this post

Next project...Replace outer and inner speedo cable : p200e

was perfect. We added a note about removing a couple of bolts from the side of the mudguard to allow better access to manoeuvre the outer through the hole in the fork.

Cheers