Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:59 am

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Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:59 am linkquote
Rather than muddy up other threads I thought I'd start a new one and include scans from a "Vespa Service Station Manual" from 1965 and valid for vehicles since 1955. This covers the VBA, VBB... as well as the quite different GS/SS.

First up is installing the bearings on the crank:
Note figure 1 indicating that the bearings are to be installed onto the crank for all except the VSB (ie: VBA, VBB).



Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:07 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6897
Location: GT, Texas
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6897
Location: GT, Texas
Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:07 am linkquote
Thank you, sir.
Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:15 am

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Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:15 am linkquote
Here's the further text about installing the crank into the case.



Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:33 am

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Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:33 am linkquote
That's the way I have always done it , never froze the berrings (I know I will get flack for that from what I have read on this sight) , yet I have not once had a problem joining the case together . Freezing at the level a typical home freezer will get it I don't see contracting it as much as just creating a reaction between cold metal and hot metal that you may not want as in stress cracks etc .
Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:17 am

Ossessionato
a lambretta or two
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Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:17 am linkquote
I put the VBB clutch-side half into the oven at 300 degrees then hit it with an infrared temperature gun. At about 150-200F the crank with bearing should just drop in.
Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:08 am

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Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:08 am linkquote
Here's the cover of the workshop manual that I was trained to in 1986. I'd always assumed there was a copy of it on scooterhelp.com, but after looking today I found it's not there. I've managed to keep the pages mostly clean so I'll be making it available to scan or end up scanning it myself. There are some large fold out charts that would take a larger scanner than I have.



Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:11 am

Addicted
1961 vbb and 1981 p125x
Joined: 25 Mar 2013
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Location: iowa
 
Addicted
1961 vbb and 1981 p125x
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Location: iowa
Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:11 am linkquote
That was an interesting read. The thing I most noted was change in temp they were looking for. Such as heating the bearings in an oil bath to 100 degrees. That's a very small change in temp from let's say the 80 degrees or so the crank would be at sitting on the bench. Or fair to say if we skinned the cat the other direction by cooling the crank it should only take a slight change as well. Personally I used the air can upside down method and was pleased that I didn't have to use any force at all. I could see a heated oil bath as a better idea thou.
Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:20 am

Addicted
1961 vbb and 1981 p125x
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Addicted
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Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:20 am linkquote
That would be great to have a copy. Even if only a scanned one. Would there be any Broken copywriter laws? How's it compair to other repair manuals like chiltons. Hate to say it but I've never bought any sort of manual. To much good info put there. I'm mean on here.
Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:21 am

Ossessionato
a lambretta or two
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Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:21 am linkquote
318ti wrote:
That was an interesting read. The thing I most noted was change in temp they were looking for. Such as heating the bearings in an oil bath to 100 degrees. That's a very small change in temp from let's say the 80 degrees or so the crank would be at sitting on the bench. Or fair to say if we skinned the cat the other direction by cooling the crank it should only take a slight change as well. Personally I used the air can upside down method and was pleased that I didn't have to use any force at all. I could see a heated oil bath as a better idea thou.
It is in Celsius.
Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:26 am

El Presidente Del Topo Chico
VNB VSC VBC VSX
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4978
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
El Presidente Del Topo Chico
VNB VSC VBC VSX
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Posts: 4978
Location: Hustletown, TX
Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:26 am linkquote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
Here's the cover of the workshop manual that I was trained to in 1986. I'd always assumed there was a copy of it on scooterhelp.com, but after looking today I found it's not there. I've managed to keep the pages mostly clean so I'll be making it available to scan or end up scanning it myself. There are some large fold out charts that would take a larger scanner than I have.
Would be willing to help with the cost of scanning etc. as it would be great to have that out there for the community.

(I have been trolling ebay for one of those for ages....)
Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:38 am

Hooked
1959 VBA, 1959 Allstate boat anchor
Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 389
Location: Snohomish, WA
 
Hooked
1959 VBA, 1959 Allstate boat anchor
Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 389
Location: Snohomish, WA
Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:38 am linkquote
This is awesome. Thanks. I have access to a scanner that can do 11"x17" if that helps.
Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:00 am

Addicted
1961 vbb and 1981 p125x
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Addicted
1961 vbb and 1981 p125x
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Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:00 am linkquote
Darn my reading abilities. So that's 212 degrees f. It's lack of attention like this that's going to get someone killed. Good thing I'm not a nurse or doctor or something. Oh, crude I am. Well at least I'm not working right now. Makes me wonder now how cold the freezing method is getting stuff.
Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:06 am

Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
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Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
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Posts: 3339
Location: Nashville
Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:06 am linkquote
318ti wrote:
That would be great to have a copy. Even if only a scanned one. Would there be any Broken copywriter laws? How's it compair to other repair manuals like chiltons. Hate to say it but I've never bought any sort of manual. To much good info put there. I'm mean on here.
+1 on getting a copy.

When I was re-assembling my VBB engine (bearings on crank, then inserted into the casings, for those keeping score), I kept thinking there had to be a better way, usually while trying to stop the flow of blood.

Doing a little quick searching, starting from the DIY Book Scanning Project, there are a couple of pieces of open source software for fixing/deskewing photographed & scanned page images. It's mostly just a matter of photographing & fixing each page, and the software does a lot of the fixing automatically.

The tricky part is the legalities of it, which will vary by country/jurisdiction. Mostly, though, you'd have to worry that Vespa was going to come after someone for distributing or receiving the file/e-book.

Of course, given that we're mostly OSHA-non-compliant shadetree mechanics riding around on vehicles that are probably illegal in various emissions-related ways, we can't be too concerned with obscure legalities like copyright

How aggressive is Piaggo/Vespa on pursuing intellectual property claims?
Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:34 am

Hooked
vespa 125 vnb1t
Joined: 13 Jul 2011
Posts: 369
Location: antibes , france
 
Hooked
vespa 125 vnb1t
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Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:34 am linkquote
fantastic post thanks
these workshop manuals are rare as rocking horse shit
do you or anybody else have any that can be posted , uploaded , downloaded
i wont tell anyone if you dont
Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:47 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6897
Location: GT, Texas
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6897
Location: GT, Texas
Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:47 am linkquote
Thanks again Patrick

It would be nice to have access to all of those pages. It was the lack of availability of these specific instructions that led me to the erroneous assumption that the methods I found described elsewhere were just as good.

Perhaps I should have know when the bearings didn't just "drop in", there were bigger problems ahead.

All water under the Shit Creek bridge at this point.
Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:47 am

Hooked
1962 VBB1
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 189
Location: vancouver
 
Hooked
1962 VBB1
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Location: vancouver
Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:47 am linkquote
That settles it for me. Thanks for that. I, also, would love to get a copy.
Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:05 pm

Member
1963 VNB
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 49
Location: Winnipeg, MB
 
Member
1963 VNB
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Posts: 49
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:05 pm linkquote
Me too!
The closest I have found is the factory manual for the Douglas VBA @ scooter help.com. http://scooterhelp.com/serial/douglas.vba.service.html

Other models are available but not specifically for the VNB/VBB series.

Would love a copy in .PDF.


Thx,
Eric
Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:58 am

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Posts: 2511

 
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:58 am linkquote
Not to rock the waters but I have often found in many cases that instructions that have been used for years and years have often been changed and updated because they found in the long run through experiences of people using the instructions that there sometimes comes a new updated way of doing a procedure and they then do just that "update the procedure". Is it possible that this procedure for installing the bearings has changed as Rob Hodge as given an alternative way of doing the procedure?
Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:19 am

nothing at all
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Posts: 9657
Location: westla
 
nothing at all
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Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:19 am linkquote
SFvsr wrote:
I put the VBB clutch-side half into the oven at 300 degrees then hit it with an infrared temperature gun. At about 150-200F the crank with bearing should just drop in.
I will never do a crank/bearing without heat to the case.

Heating aluminum is far more efficient of a process than cooling hardend steel. The last time I dropped a bearing I didn't even have to cool it, just heating of the case was good.

Mine was in bike so no oven for me.
Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:35 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
SawStop
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: Puyallup, WA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
SawStop
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Location: Puyallup, WA
Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:35 am linkquote
Lynnb wrote:
Not to rock the waters but I have often found in many cases that instructions that have been used for years and years have often been changed and updated because they found in the long run through experiences of people using the instructions that there sometimes comes a new updated way of doing a procedure and they then do just that "update the procedure". Is it possible that this procedure for installing the bearings has changed as Rob Hodge as given an alternative way of doing the procedure?
Nobody is right 100% of the time. I think the manual and the results speak for themselves.
Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:50 am

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Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:50 am linkquote
Half way done with the scans. Looks like it will be close to 300 pages.
Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:17 pm

Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3339
Location: Nashville
 
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3339
Location: Nashville
Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:17 pm linkquote
I just noticed this in my Dropbox folder. Didn't know I had it and don't know where I got it from.

Table of Contents:

Introductory note
Technical data
Identification data
Engine
Controls
Frame
Electric wiring
Tool kit
Accessories
Operation
Maintenance
Lubrication chart
Fault finding

Vespa_150.pdf
 Description:
1962 VBB Manual

Download
 Filename:  Vespa_150.pdf
 Filesize:  4.19 MB

Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:26 pm

Hooked
1959 VBA, 1959 Allstate boat anchor
Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 389
Location: Snohomish, WA
 
Hooked
1959 VBA, 1959 Allstate boat anchor
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Posts: 389
Location: Snohomish, WA
Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:26 pm linkquote
SFvsr wrote:
I put the VBB clutch-side half into the oven at 300 degrees then hit it with an infrared temperature gun. At about 150-200F the crank with bearing should just drop in.
What kind of heat can the clutch side seal take? I worry about applying too much heat and destroying the seal.
Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:35 pm

Ossessionato
a lambretta or two
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Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:35 pm linkquote
flyngti wrote:
SFvsr wrote:
I put the VBB clutch-side half into the oven at 300 degrees then hit it with an infrared temperature gun. At about 150-200F the crank with bearing should just drop in.
What kind of heat can the clutch side seal take? I worry about applying too much heat and destroying the seal.
Um, how about 150-200˚F.
Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:42 pm

Banned
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Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:42 pm linkquote
Dance around the outside , if you do you won't even get close to the seal .
Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:44 pm

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a lambretta or two
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Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:44 pm linkquote
Antlerdance wrote:
Dance around the outside , if you do you won't even get close to the seal .
With an open flame? Horrible idea.
Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:41 pm

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Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:41 pm linkquote
SFvsr wrote:
Antlerdance wrote:
Dance around the outside , if you do you won't even get close to the seal .
With an open flame? Horrible idea.
Not horrible at all, works quite well. propane torch is cool enough to heat things evenly.
Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:45 pm

Banned
62vnb , 71 sprint ,1974 vespa90
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Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:45 pm linkquote
Propane blow torch . Why is that a bad idea ?
Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:25 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6897
Location: GT, Texas
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6897
Location: GT, Texas
Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:25 am linkquote
Before I broke my case, I melted the seal with the blow torch. Luckily I had another one.
Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:29 am

Molto Verboso
px200
Joined: 13 Apr 2010
Posts: 1267
Location: london
 
Molto Verboso
px200
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Posts: 1267
Location: london
Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:29 am linkquote
Hello

I use a hot air paint stripper and avoid the seals.

Grumpy
Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:29 am

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Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:29 am linkquote
OK, here's the manual for now. I'm going to try and get this added to scooterhelp.

http://oopsclunkthud.com/Vespa_service_manual/


Regarding the use of a propane torch, it's good to keep a small squirt bottle of water (or spit if you forget the water) to check the temp of the cases. Heat only till the water boils off. That puts you slightly over the target temp but gives you a bit of extra time.

After the cases are hot, the seal goes in and then the crank complete with bearings. This way the seals don't get cooked by the torch.

Last edited by oopsclunkthud on Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:49 am

Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3339
Location: Nashville
 
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
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Location: Nashville
Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:49 am linkquote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
OK, here's the manual for now. I'm going to try and get this added to scooterhelp.

http://oopsclunkthud.com/vespa_service_manual/

Browsing it now...that's awesome work. Thank you!
Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:47 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6897
Location: GT, Texas
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 6897
Location: GT, Texas
Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:47 am linkquote
Thanks for all your effort. That's a lot of scanning.

Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but the pages indicated by the navigation tool at the top left, don't match up with the pages of the manual.

I think a PDF version might help solve that.

Thanks again.
Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:05 am

Banned
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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Banned
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Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:05 am linkquote
I know the page numbers are not lined up, I needed a quick way to put it in a reasonable form for the web so I just used iPhoto. I may be able to fix this a bit.

Ideally each page would be run through OCR (I don't have anything that will do that) and then the whole thing combined in a pdf. The scans are 300dpi and at 250 pages comes in at 222MB. If most of it was turned to text I'm sure it would come down to a reasonable size.
Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:24 am

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Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:24 am linkquote
OK, page numbers added.
Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:27 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
946
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Posts: 6164
Location: Acworth, GA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
946
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Posts: 6164
Location: Acworth, GA
Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:27 am linkquote
Patrick...this is incredible! Thank you!
Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:39 am

Molto Verboso
59 Vespa, 65 Vespa, 66 Vespa, 57 Vespa
Joined: 10 May 2011
Posts: 1323
Location: Portland Oregon
 
Molto Verboso
59 Vespa, 65 Vespa, 66 Vespa, 57 Vespa
Joined: 10 May 2011
Posts: 1323
Location: Portland Oregon
Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:39 am linkquote
Thank you for this Patrick!
Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:50 am

El Presidente Del Topo Chico
VNB VSC VBC VSX
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4978
Location: Hustletown, TX
 
El Presidente Del Topo Chico
VNB VSC VBC VSX
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4978
Location: Hustletown, TX
Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:50 am linkquote
Thanks Patrick. So cool of you to take the time.

Last edited by Birdsnest on Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:56 am

Hooked
1959 VBA, 1959 Allstate boat anchor
Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 389
Location: Snohomish, WA
 
Hooked
1959 VBA, 1959 Allstate boat anchor
Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 389
Location: Snohomish, WA
Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:56 am linkquote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
I know the page numbers are not lined up, I needed a quick way to put it in a reasonable form for the web so I just used iPhoto. I may be able to fix this a bit.

Ideally each page would be run through OCR (I don't have anything that will do that) and then the whole thing combined in a pdf. The scans are 300dpi and at 250 pages comes in at 222MB. If most of it was turned to text I'm sure it would come down to a reasonable size.
Wow, this is awesome. Thanks! I took the liberty of taking all the jpgs and creating a single PDF. I hope that's ok. It's a whopping 146MB, but that's using the full sized jpgs. I tried just resizing everything to keep the PDF size down, but that left some of the smaller print unreadable. I'm sure that some page-by-page tweaking can be done to make this smaller. Anyhow, here is the first cut PDF
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dn5vnn7ro7jrs4g/Vespa_service_manual_1955-1965.pdf
Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:22 am

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2511

 
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2511

Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:22 am linkquote
Thanks guys , nice teamwork.
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