Modern Vespa

Is this lubricated by 2-stroke oil? Is this common problem? I still wonder why this happened. There was a small oil leakage under the carb box. Engine was covered with mix of oil and dust, but I don't know how long leak has been there because this scooter is new to me. Maybe this gear didn't get oil all the time.





I'm about to buy Malossi cylinder kit and now is time to decide do I premix from now on, or should I buy a new gear. I read several topics about autolube and there is no simple answer for this question.

I like the the prelube and would keep it myself. It's just so simple to top off the oil tank every so often, you just don't use that much. And it's always the correct mix. My guess to wear on the gear would be someone ran it on premixed and the gears were run dry.

So far I have found two different oil pumps for PX. One for 125/150cc, another for 200cc. Of course latter is more expensive, rarer and harder to find. I assume that bigger cylinder needs more oil since it consumes more air and fuel.

If I now buy Malossi 210 or any other tuning cylinder I'll need bigger jets of course. I have already bought Sip Road 2.0 exhaust. Even more air and fuel goes thru the engine, doesn't it need more oil too? But there is no adjustment any kind at these oil pumps. So, I'm not so sure is it always correct mix. I think it cannot be 2% mixture anymore if jets are bigger when at the same time we cannot get more oil in engine.

144 euro is a lot of money if we cannot be sure that it works correct with tuning cylinder. I like autolube, but how can I be sure it gives enough oil.

I understand what you are saying. And to make it more confusing I believe the autolube adjusts the mix rate depending on rpm's so it's not a set 2%. Without the autolube I believe you risk starving the engine for oil if you engine brake or even cut throddle at rpm. I assume if the 125 and 150 take the same autolube parts there must be at least a little give and take.

I know the starving problem. But if I don't do engine brakings it should not be a problem. Not so pleasant ride for sure if you need to disengage clutch more often. That's why I still struggle with this.

I'd say autolube make 2% mixture, compared to consumed fuel. Depending on both rpm and throttle.

I did read older topics but I didn't dare to bring them up because it annoys some of us.

I'm sure you can make it work either way. Might want to get a head temp gauge just to be on the safe side. If it were me I think I'd stick with the autolube.

IF engine and jets are standard.

Lubrication requirements are not based on fuel consumption, but RPM and load on engine. Autolube meters fuel based on RPM, plus additional lube as you open the throttle (increased load). It should work just fine with a kit.

Premix is a much less accurate lubrication process.

Why there is at least two different pumps for different size engines? I'd say it's because different amount fuel air mixture is burned in the engine.

This pump, or should I say mixing device adds oil to fuel air mixture in carburettor. After that it's mixture of oil, fuel and air. So, more fuel and air to tuned engine, but still same amount of oil than to stock engine. It's like "No need for bigger jet if you change exhaust pipe". Doesn't sound right to me.

Different size engines have different lubrication needs.

There is nothing "magical" about 2%. That is simply the compromise solution for introducing sufficient lubricant when the fuel itself is the only vehicle for carrying the lubricant.

A significant portion of the lubrication requirements in a 2T engine have nothing to do with the combustion chamber. Everything below the combustion chamber (crank bearings, connecting rod end bearings, etc) needs to be lubricated. What do "fuel/air" have to do with these components?

While an auto lube "appears" to add lubricant to the fuel/air mix, it is more correctly injecting lube into the crankcase induction aperature to lube there. Lubricant is carried into the combustion chamber, simply because a crankcase induction system has no other choice. It's simply an unavoidable part of a sumpless engine.



There are wet sump, direct injection 2T engines that do not feed lubricant into the combustion chamber, just as 4T engines do not feed lube into the combustion chamber. Note the oil sump in the drawing below, where the fuel and air are both introduced separately, AND above the piston top.



The whole idea behind a premix, 2T engine is simplicity. Far fewer moving parts. In order to get more precise lubrication over the full range of operation, autolube is added. Even more precision can be achieved by adding lube galleys and directly lubricating components.

I should have said more mixture is delivered to engine, not burned in engine. Sorry.

Fuel/air mixture delivers the oil where it's needed. For bearings and cylinder walls. If there is not enough oil those parts will wear out sooner or later. We have to remember that fuel dilutes oil. So, not enough oil in air/fuel mixture will create problems.

While I'm trying to figure out this to myself, I could order oil pump which is meant to use 125cc engine for less than half a price? If it really doesn't matter how much air/fuel is passing thru crankcase I could use pump for smaller engine?

It might take a while before I can understand this. No, it just doesn't make sense.

What matters is how much oil (micro litre/rev) is being metered into the engine. The PX200 pump is designed to meet the needs of the 200cc engine, based on RPM AND throttle setting. The difference in the gear may be to provide a different metering rate, or it may just be a dimensional difference based on the physical differences between the 200cc engine and the 125/150 engine. The carb boxes are different part numbers as well.

Or, simply go to premix.

Partanen, you ask a valid question. A 210cc engine clearly has different oil needs than a 200cc engine. I understand performance suppliers like Malossi recommend upping the premix to 3% with the 210 kit.

As for whether a stock 200cc auto-lube would furnish enough oil for an engine with a larger displacement, I believe the answer is no.

As Aviator47 states, the autolube feature meters delivery of oil to meet the needs of a 200cc engine. A larger cylinder will need more lubrication. While the autolube automatically adjusts for RPM, it doesn't automatically adjust for engine displacement.

I suppose what this means is someone needs to make a "performance" autolube to go with all the performance kits.

Vader?

Haa.. put it on Voodoo!

I don't know why it couldn't be done though.. maybe it's as simple as a slightly different oil gear cog? then again, maybe it's not. Let's see!

Make the grooves in the cog gear deeper.

I totally agree with you. I was under the impression that the Stella oil injection was the same but is not. It make a a lot off sense, the gear mechanism looks simple but is very well designed for precise oil injection.

As far is my personal choice? I prefer full automatic oil injection.

I think the only way you are going to know if you are getting enough oil is to check cht. As I jeep thinking about this. The two reasons you need an oil mix are bearing lube and cooling. The autoluber seems to do a good job in a stock setup. What about using the autolube but adding maybe one percent to the tank ? Do you need to run bigger jets if you prremix? Due to running the oil in the mix.

The two reasons you need oil are lube and lube. The function of lube is friction reduction. Friction causes drag, heat and wear. To be technically correct, lube prevents heat, it does not "cool".

Increasing displacement from 200 to 210 is a 5% increase. If that required a higher capacity pump, then why doesn't the increase from 125cc to 150 cc (20% increase) require a higher capacity pump? My wife kitted her 2T Malagutti with a 60% displacement increase and has been riding 9 trouble free years without a change in the autolube, even with long rides touring northern Italy at and near WOT.

Malossi makes no mention of increasing lube rate in their instructions for the kit that I was able to find on the Malossi UK web site.

Or, simply contact a Malossi Tech Center and see what they recommend. http://www.malossiuk.com/tech-centres

A further bit of food for thought on autolube.

The throttle correlation may not necessarily be linear. As you open throttle, the autolube increases the lube rate per rev by pressing the gear assembly shaft further into the pump body. It might very well be that the PX200 engine oil pump assembly has a different "correlation curve" to meet the lubrication needs of the 200 cc engine at increased throttle versus the needs of the 125/150 cc engine at increased throttle.

10cc more displacement isn't a problem I think. I'm worried increased fuel/air amount. It will rinse oil from crankcase. 1% premix together autolube would be good idea.

Original autolube makes 2% oil/fuel mixture, that's been said by Piaggio. And that's minimum what I want. We cannot have 2% if we put bigger fuel jets.

Someone may calculate mixture, if jet is changed from 116 to let's say 130?

Autolube does not lube as a % of fuel mixture. It lubes based on microlitres/rev. Don't get wrapped around the axle over non issues such as "rinsing oil" from the crankcase. If it were an issue, premix would be doing the same thing.

The % oil used in premix is simply an indirect means to provide the necessary microlitres/rev to lube your engine. A given volume of fuel contains a given volume of oil. A given volume of fuel is taken in per rev, thus a given volume of lube is also taken in per rev as a given amount of the fuel/oil mix. The engine does give a damn about %, just the actual amount of oil delivered per rev.

I have never seen where Piaggio or any other manufacturer has expressed the oil delivery rate of autolube as a % of fuel/air intake. The rate per rev varies based upon throttle setting, optimizing the oil delivery for the actual load on the engine components. While autolube is a replacement for premixing, it does not necessarily simply inject oil at a rate of 2% of fuel intake, and when it does, it is simply coincidental.

As to which method of lube is "better" (pre-mix or autolube), consider that autolube will deliver more microlitres per rev than pre-mix as you increase throttle. Load on the engine also increases as you increase throttle.
You are overworking it.

Back to your original question - the wear on the gear. Can you add an arrow pointing to what you are concerned about?

2% is needed when maximum power is taken out of the engine, if you use premix at least. Less load doesn't need as much oil. But, if we take maximum power from kitted engine with better air flow ang bigger jets, then oil given by original oil pump cannot be enough. The oil cannot go only where it's needed, it goes all over the crankcase. And fuel will rinse it every revolution.

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The lever has grind metal off from the gear surface. I think the surface should be flat. Now throttle position does not increase oil amount as it should.

"Why my oil pump gear is worn?"

Theres no wear in that picture. Someone else may see something different, but to me that isnt where wear happens.

The flat spot that can be mistaken for unnatural wear seen on the upper face of the gear that is apparent in the several kinds of autolube mechanisms ive seen.

Symptoms of definate wear that friends have mentioned on a leaking autolube(blowing loads of smoke on start up, with good seals), worn splines or wobbling shaft in its housing after removal.


"I could order oil pump which is meant to use 125cc engine for less than half a price?"

I doubt getting a cheaper autolube from a smaller system is worth trying in your tuned machine. you would best test it independently of the engine so you could gather metering information... And post results, im sure it would spark debate and interest.
Information along the lines of that idea really only comes from necessity, when builders can no longer find original parts for bikes and need to substitute with similar parts more readily available. Not yet necessary for the vespa.


"I like autolube, but how can I be sure it gives enough oil. "

There is a boatload of material on the net and from your local vespa club about setting up lubrication for a malossi kit on a px 200. You should do more than buy a load of parts and hope they work out allright. Actually TALK to some guys that dont mind helping you out for this build as theyve built something similar.


"There was a small oil leakage under the carb box."
- replace carb gaskets including lower carb box, clean carb and engine cases and check again in 3 weeks

Thats not wear that dip is in the casting

I agree with Trumpy. You could easily check to see if that "dip" in the casting is of any impact by simply checking to see if the tit on the autolube rate arm even passes over the depression on the gear. You can do this by simply rotating the arm to the maximum throttle open point, as determined by the throttle.

As far as how much lube you want to provide your engine and how, well, do what makes you happy based upon your theories of lubrication. Or call one of the Malossi tech centers I linked to above to see what they say. They have assisted in many kit installations, which to me would be preferable to getting advice from twenty guys who have experience with one kit each.

I'm new to these "classic" scooters and that's why I don't know any guys yet. Small circles here where I live. That's why I talk with you guys. Thanks for that.

Here you can see a new oil pump: http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/oil+pump+for+vespa+p200e_22161400

No dips in the casting.

Note that SIP says "pictures may look different". And even disregarding the dimple in your gear, there are differences in appearance between the SIP picture and your gear.

I've got a spare carb box with pump assembly. I'll pull it apart to see if it looks like yours and if a dimple that close in to the center would be a problem.

OK?

Is the box prone to twist or why it should be replaced?

I think he means the lower carb box gasket. Yes, a carb box can be warped, but that is quite uncommon.

If you really could do that I would be more than happy.

Sip says "Pictures may look different" because picture of the pump for smaller engines is the same, part number differs (and the price).

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/oil+pump+piaggio+for+vespa+_22161200

My picture may not show all. It looks more terrible when it's on my hand. I found some metal debris too. 17 000km ridden. Gear is also blue (overheated), like the "tit" has grind it at some point.

Probably be tomorrow, as my parts are in my outdoor storage locker, and we are enjoying stormy weather today.

Meanwhile, check and see if that dimple is within the arc of travel of the tit. It would be very unusual for wear in a pattern like that on a rotating part. One would expect it to be continuous in a circular pattern, not just through 30-40 degrees of rotation.

Actually dimple is not only thing. Red area has suffered, at least how I see it.

Just for fun, I asked beedspeed, one of the tech centres listed by Malossi UK:

Cheers Aviator, yeah i meant the lower carb box gasket

Partanen, there is no wear there. DO NOT WORRY!

Nothing has suffered, ill help you out by saying that wear is apparent by shiny WORN smooth or machined looking surfaces, differing from the direct surrounding areas, usually found due to grinding noises or failing parts.

The area you are showing us is uniform.









If your pump isnt broken, dont try and fix it

I do worry. It's not as it should be, and it surely need replacement. At the moment I don't know where to get one.

Then for your peace of mind, your only solution is to properly disable the autolube to go pre-mix or buy a new pump. Scooter Center advertizes one they say fits a variety of P-Series engines for only 83.99 Euro, which is less than SIP's price.

http://www.scooter-center.com/product/7673523/Oil+pump+PIAGGIO+Vespa+PX+since+1984+T5+125cc+Cosa?meta=7673523*scd_ALL_en*s18352527306960*px%20oil%20pump*4*4*1*16

You seem to have an eye for fine detail

Please send me any "broken" parts you find during your inspection as i could make good use of them im sure

Partanen, you are absolutely correct in assuming a bigger engine needs a proportionately greater delivery of oil unfortunately we only have the 2 types available for the P/PX series, (pt # 22161200 for 125/150cc, and pt # 22161400 for the 200cc)

In the absence of different gearsets the only option we have is to shorten the oil pump lifting rod. Some even lock it in the fully extended position. This delivers more oil at every point in the rpm/throttle position curve up to the point it is at maximum stroke, kinda like being on the plateau of a waffle plate cam. I'm not aware of any way to increase the amount of oil delivered at max revs and WOT. Certainly not in the small incremental amount you seem to be seeking for going from a stock 200cc to a Malossi 210cc.

You could supplement the autolube by adding a small amount of oil to the fuel, say ~200:1. This shouldn't upset the fuelling (jetting) that you'd notice but may give you some peace of mind.