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Aviator47 wrote:
Just for fun, I asked beedspeed, one of the tech centres listed by Malossi UK:
Quote:
In a message dated 12/4/2013 5:43:04 P.M. GTB Standard Time, scooters@beedspeed.com writes:

Hi

Yes it will be fine

Thanks


From: Aviator47

Sent: 04 December 2013 13:12
To: scooters@beedspeed.com
Subject: Malossi 210 cc kit

If one installs the Malossi 210 kit on a Vespa PX 200 engine, will the autolube system be sufficient?

Thanks

Al
Ask what he recommends for premix.
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Re: For what it's worth
Aviator47 wrote:
Just for fun, I asked beedspeed, one of the tech centres listed by Malossi UK:
Quote:
In a message dated 12/4/2013 5:43:04 P.M. GTB Standard Time, scooters@beedspeed.com writes:

Hi

Yes it will be fine

Thanks


From: Aviator47

Sent: 04 December 2013 13:12
To: scooters@beedspeed.com
Subject: Malossi 210 cc kit

If one installs the Malossi 210 kit on a Vespa PX 200 engine, will the autolube system be sufficient?

Thanks

Al
That's pretty verbose for Beedspeed... if there was a word that combined a greeting and the words 'yes' or 'no' into one they'd use it all the time!
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Re: For what it's worth
SoCalGuy wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
Just for fun, I asked beedspeed, one of the tech centres listed by Malossi UK:
Quote:
In a message dated 12/4/2013 5:43:04 P.M. GTB Standard Time, scooters@beedspeed.com writes:

Hi

Yes it will be fine

Thanks


From: Aviator47

Sent: 04 December 2013 13:12
To: scooters@beedspeed.com
Subject: Malossi 210 cc kit

If one installs the Malossi 210 kit on a Vespa PX 200 engine, will the autolube system be sufficient?

Thanks

Al
Ask what he recommends for premix.
Ask how he's doing... and what he thinks of the Military Industrial Complex effect on foreign policy! (his country of course!) See if you can get him to come out of his shell and open up!
Razz emoticon
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Aviator47 wrote:
Then for your peace of mind, your only solution is to properly disable the autolube to go pre-mix or buy a new pump. Scooter Center advertizes one they say fits a variety of P-Series engines for only 83.99 Euro, which is less than SIP's price.

http://www.scooter-center.com/product/7673523/Oil+pump+PIAGGIO+Vespa+PX+since+1984+T5+125cc+Cosa?meta=7673523*scd_ALL_en*s18352527306960*px%20oil%20pump*4*4*1*16
That's the same pump than Sip sells for 75 euro. It's for the smaller engine.

I'm almost ready to buy a new pump when I can find one somewhere.
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TCC wrote:
Partanen, you are absolutely correct in assuming a bigger engine needs a proportionately greater delivery of oil unfortunately we only have the 2 types available for the P/PX series, (pt # 22161200 for 125/150cc, and pt # 22161400 for the 200cc)
Those numbers are probably Sip's numbers? Piaggio's numbers are 2216125 for smaller engine, and 2216145 or 2216146 for 200cc engine.
TCC wrote:
I'm not aware of any way to increase the amount of oil delivered at max revs and WOT. Certainly not in the small incremental amount you seem to be seeking for going from a stock 200cc to a Malossi 210cc.
What if I file the rod a bit? It should increase the oil amount because it increases inner volume of the pump. I'll take picture later and show you what I mean.
TCC wrote:
You could supplement the autolube by adding a small amount of oil to the fuel, say ~200:1. This shouldn't upset the fuelling (jetting) that you'd notice but may give you some peace of mind.
That would be the easiest way. Someone said in other topic that it's stupid thing to do. I don't think so.
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jimmyb865 wrote:
Make the grooves in the cog gear deeper.
I'm not sure that would do it, as I don't think cog is what actually meters the flow of the oil. It's the shaft that the gear is attached to that feeds the oil as it spins and moves up and down. If I were going to modify the pump for performance, I'd start by looking into possibly modifying the slope of the top of the gear wheel. Or possibly modifying the diameter of the shaft or the shaft opening.

Just my two cents.
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SoCalGuy wrote:
jimmyb865 wrote:
Make the grooves in the cog gear deeper.
I'm not sure that would do it, as I don't think cog is what actually meters the flow of the oil. It's the shaft that the gear is attached to that feeds the oil as it spins and moves up and down. If I were going to modify the pump for performance, I'd start by looking into possibly modifying the slope of the top of the gear wheel. Or possibly modifying the diameter of the shaft or the shaft opening.

Just my two cents.
^^^^^^^^^^

Yea, thats what i meant
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After thinking this I realised that shaft needs to go up and down at the same times it spins. That's why modifying the shaft does not help. Just like "SoCalGuy" told the slope needs modifying. It may not be easy thing to do I guess.

My cog wheel doesn't go up and down now as it's worn. So it doesn't pump as it should.

Edit: I still wonder is the cog surface lubricated by oil or does it need vaseline?
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Partanen wrote:
What if I file the rod a bit? It should increase the oil amount because it increases inner volume of the pump.
Theoretically yes. The question is how much to file. I think you first need to ask yourself what the optimal mix is that you want at WOT - 2.5%? 2.75%? 3% - and work backward from there. Once you know what you want the pump to deliver at WOT, you can then calculate how much additional inner volume is needed, and from that determine how much needs to be removed from the rod to provide the additional volume. Otherwise you'd just be guessing.
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But does increased inner volume really change anything? I guess not. Pump doesn't pump anything if shaft doesn't go up and down when it spins. So, only thing which would help is if we could increase up and down movement. Or we could increase spinning speed, which isn't easy at all.

I would be happy if I could keep 2% mixture at wot, with bigger jets. I still think it would be less if jet is bigger and pump is original.
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Partanen wrote:
After thinking this I realised that shaft needs to go up and down at the same times it spins.
Correct, it does both. The up and down action adds oil depending on the position of the throttle, the spinning action adds oil depending on engine RPMs. It's quite an elegant system.
Partanen wrote:
That's why modifying the shaft does not help. Just like "SoCalGuy" told the slope needs modifying. It may not be easy thing to do I guess.
No, I think modifying the shaft would help, because the metering rates of both the throttle and the engine depend on the surface of the shaft. What I don't know is whether the input and output openings can handle increased oil flow but I don't see why they couldn't.
Partanen wrote:
My cog wheel doesn't go up and down now as it's worn. So it doesn't pump as it should.
That is a problem.
Partanen wrote:
Edit: I still wonder is the cog surface lubricated by oil or does it need vaseline?
Yes, it's lubricated by gear oil that travels up through the case. If your gear is worn, my guess would be that someone put the wrong carb gasket (or carb box gasket) on and blocked the oil passage.
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The issue is that no one knows what the equivalent "%" is using autolube. You would have to measure fuel flow and oil flow rates over a range of RPM to arrive at anything more accurate than a wild ass guess.

Obviously, since the same pump assembly is used in the 125 and 150 cc engines, "%" doesn't seem to be the controlling factor. At least in those two engines.

Judging from the indentation on the top of the gear, after some thought, you may have had a defective spring supporting the gear, a defective pump assembly cover, or some sort of binding in the pump body that restricted the up-down travel of the gear. I say that because if that dimple is on the path of the "tit", it may have been that the "tit" was not riding constantly on the gear top as it should. However, without being able to handle the assembly itself, this is really conjecture.

If increasing the amount of oil delivered is that important to you:

1. Repair the pump.
2. Add oil to your fuel to supplement the pump.

A hell of a lot simpler than trying to modify the pump.

OR - go Pre-mix.

I also agree with SoCalGuy that an improper gasket could have affected lube of the gear.
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Aviator47, I agree with you that modifying the pump is probably more work than Partenen needs to take on. Vespa engines appear to be designed to operate comfortably within a very forgiving "zone" of oil/gas mix. He might do equally well by simply giving some thought to using a type of oil that has more performance oriented characteristics.

As for whether anyone knows what the % mixture delivered by the autolube system under varying throttle and RPM conditions is, I have to disagree. I think it not only is measurable but undoubtedly was measured - very carefully - by the people who developed the system.

There are some rather detailed explanations of the autolube system out there - including one particularly interesting one on the Vespalabs wesite that includes calculations of the amount of oil delivered throughout the RPM range. The mix appears to range from 2% at full RPM to as little as .8% at idle.
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SoCalGuy wrote:
As for whether anyone knows what the % mixture delivered by the autolube system under varying throttle and RPM conditions is, I have to disagree. I think it not only is measurable but undoubtedly was measured - very carefully - by the people who developed the system.

There are some rather detailed explanations of the autolube system out there - including one particularly interesting one on the Vespalabs wesite that includes calculations of the amount of oil delivered throughout the RPM range. The mix appears to range from 2% at full RPM to as little as .8% at idle.
I did not say "unmeasurable", but that no one has measured both oil flow and fuel flow in microlitres per rev - or at least shared that measured info with "the world". Vespalabs computed the theoretical microlitres per rev of oil flow at idle and WOT throttle positions from the pump design and dimensions. What they did not compute was the theoretical microlitres/rev of fuel flow at those two throttle settings. Thus their statement,
Quote:
Let's look at an engine that idles at 1,000 and red lines at 7,000. <u>Note that without actual measurement of fuel flow and actual pump flow (as opposed to calculated flow), this is all theory</u>.
If we now take into account the pump stoke ratio (i.e. strokes between 2mm to 0.8mm) - at full throttle the pump is pushing ~2.5 times more oil through than at idle. So<u><b> if we assume</b></u> that 7,000 revs is a 2% oil mix ratio, then idle is 0.8%!
The "2%" is an assumption, not a measurement nor a calculation, as they have not computed nor measured fuel flow per rev, just oil flow. I would <u>assume</u> that the "2% assumption" was simply made to make an illustrative comment about the range of oil flow in terms with which people are familiar.

However, it's an excellent article for understanding the principles of how the autolube works.

Now, back to the OP, and summarizing as I see it:

Partanen's autolube pump gear may be damaged. It is worth checking all the components of the pumps assembly and carb gaskets if that is the case, to address contributing factors, and correct/replace all items that are out of spec. Something caused the suspected damage, and simply replacing the gear will not rectify the cause.

Question for Partanen- have you removed and inspected the pump body that the gear shaft goes into from the carb box? Were the O-rings intact? They not only seal the pump assy, but keep it properly aligned in the vertical axis. Does the gear shaft fit snugly, but still move in and out freely. Similarly, check the integrity and function of the pump assy cover, as well as the carb box pump well (where the pump assy goes in).

Partanen feels he needs a higher level of lube than the autolube provides. The pump output is dependent upon the vertical movement of the shaft displacing oil in the pump body. You would have to increase the vertical distance traveled to increase output, which would require re-machining the angle of the surface of the gear. The practical solution would be to supplement the pump with some oil in the fuel mix if he wishes to maintain the "variable rate" of auto lube, or go totally to pre-mix.

Last, four things for Partanen to ponder:

1. Beedspeed, an authorized Malossi tech centre, stated that the autolube "will be fine" for the 210 kit.

2. The Malossi kit instructions (linked in a post above) make no mention of additional lubrication requirements.

3. Take the time to read this http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf

4. It's your scooter. Do what gives you peace of mind and makes you happy. If you jet properly for the addition of, or conversion to premix, the added oil shouldn't not be a problem.
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SoCalGuy wrote:
Yes, it's lubricated by gear oil that travels up through the case. If your gear is worn, my guess would be that someone put the wrong carb gasket (or carb box gasket) on and blocked the oil passage.
I'm not sure if gear oil could lube this cog as this is pretty high compared to gear oil level. 2-stroke oil could come this up because there is no gasket between shaft and its housing. But as there is no bleeding screw, I guess air stays there where oil pump gear spins. And there was some red stuff, which I now think was vaseline. Same stuff what I found from a clutch cover later.

Problem is I don't know if someone has opened this earlier or is this from the factory.
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Aviator47 wrote:
Judging from the indentation on the top of the gear, after some thought, you may have had a defective spring supporting the gear, a defective pump assembly cover, or some sort of binding in the pump body that restricted the up-down travel of the gear. I say that because if that dimple is on the path of the "tit", it may have been that the "tit" was not riding constantly on the gear top as it should. However, without being able to handle the assembly itself, this is really conjecture.
To me it looks like there was lack of lubrication between tit and cogwheel surface. Earlier I though it was caused by leaky gasket. Now I'm not sure anymore. Piaggio workshop manual doesn't help at all.

Everything else seems to be right except gasket and cog.

The tit reaches all the area which is dark in my picture. At idle tits is at center, at full throttle tit is at outer ring.
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SoCalGuy wrote:
Aviator47, I agree with you that modifying the pump is probably more work than Partenen needs to take on. Vespa engines appear to be designed to operate comfortably within a very forgiving "zone" of oil/gas mix. He might do equally well by simply giving some thought to using a type of oil that has more performance oriented characteristics.
I am very interested in the mechanics and it is part of my hobby. Even more now because it's snowing and can't ride next 4 months. So I hope you guys bear with me.

I'm going to use other than cheapest oils so lubrication may not be a big problem with 210cc kit.
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Aviator47 wrote:
Partanen feels he needs a higher level of lube than the autolube provides. The pump output is dependent upon the vertical movement of the shaft displacing oil in the pump body. You would have to increase the vertical distance traveled to increase output, which would require re-machining the angle of the surface of the gear. The practical solution would be to supplement the pump with some oil in the fuel mix if he wishes to maintain the "variable rate" of auto lube, or go totally to pre-mix.
I guess I'm not the only one who is pondering these things. Now I'm sure I'll manage with original pump for now.
Aviator47 wrote:
Last, four things for Partanen to ponder:

1. Beedspeed, an authorized Malossi tech centre, stated that the autolube "will be fine" for the 210 kit.
I appreciate you asked that for me. But have they thought this really, I'm not sure.

**********

One thing which connects 125cc and 150cc is the 20mm carburettor. Jets differs though. These 200cc engines are equipped with 24mm carburettor. This also leads to conclusion that if we increase air/fuel mix flow, we may need more oil at some point (in relation to air/fuel mix). Maybe not with 210 kit, but at some cases maybe.
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Partanen

Let's step back from any further discussion of how much oil you think the engine needs, and focus on troubleshooting the suspected problem.

The surface of the gear in my spare carb box is nice and smooth and without indentation. It has 20,000 km of use.

The gear is definitely not lubed by 2T oil as that would be continuously introducing 2T oil into the gearbox.

According to Vespalabs, the "tit" only travels from 6mm from gear center (idle) to 14mm from gear center (WOT).

Is the "wear area" on the side of the gear that is thicker or thinner? The thicker area is is subject to more pressure from the "tit" as the gear rotates and the spring is compressed.

However, assuming your gear is only worn over 30-40 % of it's area, that would point to the "tit" not contacting the gear surface consistently and/or constantly over the other 60-70 %. I listed above some faults that could cause this, and here they are again:
Quote:
you may have a defective spring supporting the gear, a defective pump assembly cover, or some sort of binding and/or misalignment in the pump body that restricts the up-down travel of the gear. I say that because if that dimple is on the path of the "tit", it may have been that the "tit" was not riding constantly and consistently on the gear top as it should.
If the abrasion on the gearis abnormal, it is caused of one or more "faults" in your autolube assembly. Could be a faulty gear to begin with, or one of the items noted in the preceding paragraph. Even if poorly lubricated, for whatever reason, the wear would typically be seen across the entire surface of the gear face.

What doesn't make sense is that the "dimple" is at a point on the radius where, by design, the pressure exerted by the "tit" would be the least - at idle. That's why knowing if it corresponds to the thick versus thin portion of the gear would help. If it's on the thin side (minimum pressure), it really is perplexing.

At idle, the gear is only turning at about 13 RPM. Hard to imaging the kind of contact force that would make a serious abrasion at that low rotational speed at that point on the radius. Again, very perplexing.

Of course, it could have been a "one off" incident of damage by a "foreign object" being introduced into the assy, or a transient sticking of the gear in the vertical axis..

Have you checked the freedom of movement of the shaft, up and down as well as rotation, in the pump body?

Is the spring in good condition? Does it lift the gear high enough to maintain contact with the "tit" at all times?

Is the retaining screw at the base of the pump well in place?

In short, it's time to check every item of the assembly and carb box.

And, after all is said and done, it could have been a blemished gear to begin with.
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Partanen wrote:
One thing which connects 125cc and 150cc is the 20mm carburettor. Jets differs though. These 200cc engines are equipped with 24mm carburettor. This also leads to conclusion that if we increase air/fuel mix flow, we may need more oil at some point (in relation to air/fuel mix). Maybe not with 210 kit, but at some cases maybe.
Fuel consumption per rev increases as a function of displacement, but not necessarily linearly. The larger the displacement, the greater the volume of fuel/air mix necessary to fill that space. Carbs differ because the are limits on how much air can pass through a given size venturi in response to the intake stroke.

The jets differ in the 125 vs 150 because more fuel (and air) is required per rev. However, the pump remains the same for that 20% difference in displacement.

The 200 cc engine is a 33% displacement increase over the 150 (or 45.5% over the midpoint between the 125 and 150). No surprise that a different pump assembly is involved.

But again, let's figure out what's going on with your pump assembly first.
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I apologise that my answers are short. That's because I have to use Google translator what ever I write. But I do understand everything you say.

Wear area is on thicker side of the cog. Maybe there has been too much friction between shaft and shaft housing at some point. When gasket leaked then pump has drained when ever scooter has been standing. Wear may be on iddle area because when ever you start engine you allow it iddle some time. In this case with dry shaft.

I have to pull shaft housing of to see what it's like. It felt allright though.
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A side view picture of that gear showing the thin and thickness variation would be nice. I've only seen pre-1981 autolube gears, and like others have said, that one without a polished, clearly noticeable angled surface looks strange. It's hard to tell what provides up and down movement.

Pictures of the gear shaft and lower cavity could possibly help.

It would also be nice if someone with knowledge of that type system would chime in.

The internal wobbulating ring older versions are interesting as well.
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The "dimple" is about 0.6mm deep. It's quite a lot compared to size of the cog and movement is does while it spins.

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Shaft is only polished a bit. It fits nicely to its housing. Snug and not loose.

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

I guess leaking gasket was not problem as ball valve is before leaky gasket. So this has not run dry as I thought earlier.

*************

"A side view picture of that gear showing the thin and thickness variation would be nice."

Here is a couple of pictures: http://www.vespalabs.org/Wiki/Vespa_101/Engine/Autolube
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Thanks for the additional pictures. The top one, with the gear in its assembled position gives a much better idea of the state of the gear. It needs to be replaced.

We haven't shed any light on the cause of the damage yet. It would appear that the gear was resisting downward push from the "tit" significantly at idle, as that's where the bulk of the indentation sits.

So, you still have some questions to answer:

What is the condition of the pump body and the O-rings on it?

Is the screw securing the pump body in the carb box secure?

With the spring in place, how far down can the gear shaft be pushed onto the pump body when the body is in the carb box?

What is the condition of the pump cover and throttle correlation arm?

Or just take the easy, but expensive way out. Get a new carb box with pump assembly.
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The more I look at that picture, the more profound the damage seems to be.

I have a feeling that a previous owner removed the pump assembly and then reinstalled it incorrectly. Two possible errors come to mind:

Placing the shim between the spring and the pump body. This would result in excess resistance to the downward force on the gear.

Not inserting the pump body fully into the carb box well, and then inserting the set screw. This could cause the pump shaft to hit the bottom of the pump body.

Either one could possibly cause the damage seen at an idle, making a tapping noise that led the person to shut it down, after the damage was done.

I wonder if you will ever be able to identify the cause, to be honest.

Just guessing here. After all is said and done, at a minimum, the gear needs to be replaced, and that normally comes with a pump body. As I said above, the safest bet is a complete carb box assembly, including the pump. No telling what other components were damaged in the process.
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Aviator47 wrote:
I have a feeling that a previous owner removed the pump assembly and then reinstalled it incorrectly.
Agree. The second picture, showing the deep indentation in the top of the gear, indicates far too much contact between the top of the gear and the nipple. It almost looks like someone might have taken a hammer to the top of the pump assembly, or dropped something on it. Or possibly it was reinstalled with a spring with too much tension, but that's a major dent to have been caused by a spring. I'm surprised it worked at all in that condition.

Partanen, for peace of mind, I'd replace the entire carb box assembly, including the pump, as Aviator47 recommends.
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Aviator47 wrote:
So, you still have some questions to answer:

What is the condition of the pump body and the O-rings on it?

Is the screw securing the pump body in the carb box secure?

With the spring in place, how far down can the gear shaft be pushed onto the pump body when the body is in the carb box?

What is the condition of the pump cover and throttle correlation arm?

Or just take the easy, but expensive way out. Get a new carb box with pump assembly.
O-rings are fine, but I will put new ones if I ever find new pump.

Pump body screw was secured.

Shaft goes all the way down with the spring.

Pump cover is fine.

Only one screw was a bit loose, the one which holds carb box to crankcase. That may have caused the slight oil leak which I had. Paper gasket was oily but unbroken.

I think I need new oil pump with shaft housing and gaskets. I don't know why I should replace carb box, as it seems to be ok. Pump and carb body is sold separately.

SIP seems to be my only hope at the moment. Others don't have it on their list, or they don't reply to my questions. Luckily I have plenty of time before next summer.
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May very well be that a previous owner renewed everything but the gear assy. It's hard to imagine the "tit" causing that much damage without suffering some damage itself, which does not appear to be the case

Yes, PX200 pump assemblies are harder to find than 125/150 assemblies, as the former is no longer produced, while the latter is still in production.

SIP does sell the complete PX200 carb box with pump assy, but it is about 250 Euro. A bit more than just the pump.

If you are comfortable that all is in fine shape, other than the gear, then go ahead and just replace the pump assy. Yes, you have all winter to work on it. The last time I was in Helsinki was in January, and it definitely wasn't scooting weather.

Good luck.
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Aviator47 wrote:
The last time I was in Helsinki was in January, and it definitely wasn't scooting weather.


************************

Here is a comparison of gears for smaller and 200cc engine: http://www.germanscooterforum.de/topic/184945-%C3%B6lpumpe-f%C3%BCr-getrenntschmierung/

Looks like only difference is the slope. 4,3mm vs. 5,5mm
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Molto Verboso
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this is painful to watch
Im posting this because others will freak out, when they get the oil pump apart from there 80's px's and one day go wtf, based on this thread.
I evaluate wear on aircraft engine components and bodies..
Your pump has a few scratches, and a little dimple, the larger dimple you see is cast. Nothing untoward for the miles you have not said it has , im sure.
its a shaft, it goes round and round, youre thinking too hard on it. There is a bit of wear near the centre, with a shiny spot apparent, thats fine.
it is so obvious that your wear is localised and uniform, none of the drama you are thinking it is.
That dimple that is nearly 5.5-6mm deep...ring a bell? is actually cast, i can still see the cast marks, there is no way your ball bearing would wear down uniformly like that. I have owned an oil pump with a dimple similar to what you question here. it is a standard cast. you need to realise there are machined surfaces and plain cast, yours is the latter, so trying to check your gear against a machined example is...not the same.

Think about how wear would happen on the whole , if one part were subject to enormous pressure, on the top face, what would happen to the bottom end of the opposite side of the shaft for that indentation to happen? you have a little wear on the shaft but you know that it fits well so still nothing to worry about. what does the nipple look like? where is the iron dust? accumulated in the dimple? no? there is a small shiny spot on the cast face close to the shaft but does the pump work?
Cast iron is tough but it can wear, would it wear like that? did you wipe any dust filings out?, it would polish like the top centre of the face near the shaft.
How many kilometres has it done please? does your bike actually run well? In other words, is the wear you think you see impeeding the action of the pump? have you had a seizure or have you just taken it apart and thought "that doesnt look right"?

but yeah, replace it all, just please send me all ruined pieces you think you have, i will pay postage, thankyou.

*edit* 17000 ks ...seen

how much filings or debris?
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Trumpy, I have a similar aviation maintenance background, along with mishap investigation training and experience. You know, a bit of determining why parts failed. My "by internet" evaluation, which is not the best way to diagnose by any means, is that the damage occurred and was partially corrected by the previous owner. Thus, evidence of the wear is long gone.

The depth of the groove virtually nullifies the vertical gear action in the area affected, which is essential to the pumping. The total vertical stroke of the gear is only 2.4 mm, and that groove comes close to that depth. The dimensional info from the VespaLabs site would put the groove in the area of travel of the "tit" (6 to 14 mm from centerpoint of gear).

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

The prudent thing, IMHO, since he can't ride until winter is over, is to invest the 125 Euro to replace the part.
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Cheers mate,

I get what your saying now.

Its just that the topo pics still show casting irregularities even in the dimple.(ie theyre not really worn) If it were proper wear, there would be a machined shiny spot apparent and ive had a px with a similar massive dimple. if it werent for my a/c experiance i would have bought a new one. This guy has also not clarified if it is actually born out of a siezure. 17000 k's is not much to freak out on.
im running off the if it aint broke dont fix it regulation.

my belief is that most of his fear is born out of supposition. his autolube works fine, and hes doing what many inexperianced restorers may do. worry about little shit.

now if the dimple were very machined like, and he had symptoms of lack of oil or grinding noises from the carb this thread would have my empathy.

i can still see high and low spots in that massive dimple, have owned one similar and hes not said why hes actually pulling it appart for renewel. It doesnt really wash. am i missing something?
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Re: this is painful to watch
TrumpyScooter wrote:
...
I evaluate wear on aircraft engine components and bodies..
Please tell me the company name. I don't want to use it!

Laughing emoticon
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TrumpyScooter wrote:
Cheers mate,
It doesnt really wash. am i missing something?
My eval and recommendations are based on the following, but, of course, Partanen could answer you better:

First, let's forget the confusion raised about needing more lube for a 210 kit. That just clouds the issue of the "grooved" gear.

I got the impression he hasn't had it long, as he said he's new to shifty scooters. Willing to bet he hasn't ridden it long and hard enough to evaluate the operation of the oil delivery. He was trying to diagnose a slight oil seep and stumbled across the grooved gear surface.

His first pics weren't that "impressive", but the subsequent set, between the angle of view, clearly rotational shape of the grove and the placement of a ruler is an attention getter. Note that I also said several elements were "perplexing", as there is not evidence of damage or wear, except on the gear surface. That led me to suspect that the previous owner may have done a "partial repair", leaving the damaged gear in place, for whatever reason, perhaps the same difficulty Partanen is having in finding one.

The integrity of the gear, and therefore the functioning of the pump is definitely suspect. Unfortunately, it would be very difficult to actually measure the pump output. So, the choices, in descending order of immediate cost are:

1. Replace it - about 125 Euro
2. Disable it and go pre-mix. About 20 Euro for proper parts, but a less effective lube system
3. Ignore it and see if a component fails (impossible to calculate damages until a fail occurs)

For 125 Euro, knowing a fully functioning gear is installed and the ability to keep auto lube, I vote for #1. The scooter is laid up for the winter, and the carb box and autolube already disassembled.
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And let's try to keep comments, by anyone, from approaching being personal in nature.
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bodgemaster
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UTC quote
Re: this is painful to watch
TrumpyScooter wrote:
I have owned an oil pump with a dimple similar to what you question here. it is a standard cast.
Trumpy, perhaps you could post a photo of cast gear with a similar dimple? It may be helpful.
⚠️ Last edited by SoCalGuy on UTC; edited 1 time
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Thanks Aviator47. At least you read what I wrote. Shouldn't be too much to read.

I thought this is common problem and anyone who see my first pic could tell me what's wrong. I was wrong.

One theory: Pump has been frozen at some point. Someone started the engine without knowing there was water in the pump. Some people here tend to start engine during winter even if scooter is stored in cold garage. When shaft couldn't go up and down because the ice in pump, the tit grinded cog surface.

I'm glad I found this failure. No doubt it's failure. As already told the pump pumps nothing if shaft doesn't go up and down.

If one cannot see what's wrong with this pump please look again on bigger screen.
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Molto Verboso
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+1 on what Trumpy wrote I was puzzling that the groove still has casting marks in the bottom of it and if Trumpy post a picture of the similar groove in his it will go a long way towards my understanding of the problem.


Regards

Grumpy
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Here you can see a new gear: http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/oil+pump+for+vespa+p200e_22161400 No grooves.

Maybe you guys mix older pump to this newer model? Or why this is so hard to understand?
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Molto Verboso
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Hello

Yeah I see now, that is not the same style of gear.

Grumpy
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