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Molto Verboso
Black 2007 PX200, Dark green 1986 PX225 Pinasco, "1972"(yeah rite) Tangerine px200, several TRIUMPH TIGRESS SCOOTERS
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Molto Verboso
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Ok, ive just pulled mine apart, and ive got the machined flat type. really different to the one this guy has. Ive had a couple of px's and sold them on, mustve been one in them. The only other p ive got is a 2007 model, ive never found the need to repair so it wont be that.

So without any pics, im bowing out.

Good luck with your scooter mate.
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I went to my local importer today. I found out the pump is available at Piaggio, and part number for PX200 is 2216146. At the cost of 211 euro. Not as much I was expecting though. For smaller engines there is different pump. It feels like all the dealers have not thought this matter.
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318ti wrote:
I'm sure you can make it work either way. Might want to get a head temp gauge just to be on the safe side. If it were me I think I'd stick with the autolube.
I think exhaust temperatures would tell sooner if something is wrong. I have one engine temp gauge which I could use for cylinder head, but now I ponder should I buy exhaust temp gauge. Nerd emoticon
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Partanen wrote:
318ti wrote:
I'm sure you can make it work either way. Might want to get a head temp gauge just to be on the safe side. If it were me I think I'd stick with the autolube.
I think exhaust temperatures would tell sooner if something is wrong. I have one engine temp gauge which I could use for cylinder head, but now I ponder should I buy exhaust temp gauge. Nerd emoticon
Actually, CHT is the indicator that tells you about stress on the engine, not EGT. I suggest you read this article carefully, as it pretty much addresses the common myths and Old Wives' Tales about EGT. While written about 4T aircraft engines, the principals are the same in 2T scooter engines.

Another good article by that author is here.

Key Points:

EGT temp info is only useful on a relative basis, not in absolute temps. There really isn't such a limitation as "maximum EGT" in degrees. In fact, EGT gauges did not display actual temperature until the advent of digital gauges.

In an engine with operator controlled variable mixture (as in aircraft), EGT is an aid, along with CHT and Fuel flow, in adjusting the mixture while the engine is operating. In an engine where jets have to be changed to change mixture, EGT is of very limited value.
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One rally mechanic told me many years ago that if exhaust temp is over 1000c then there is something wrong. That's about all I know of exhaust temperatures at the moment.

I have to read articles you gave some day soon.
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Yes, an exhaust gas temperature "over 1000c" would indicate something's amiss---you might be scootering across the surface of the sun. Razz emoticon
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khittner wrote:
Yes, an exhaust gas temperature "over 1000c" would indicate something's amiss---you might be scootering across the surface of the sun. Razz emoticon
And on what do you base that idea?
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What's an order of magnitude between friends? But 1800+ F does seem pretty toasty, as your aircraft article link would seem to indicate.
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khittner wrote:
What's an order of magnitude between friends? But 1800+ F does seem pretty toasty, as your aircraft article link would seem to indicate.
OOOppps, missed the "c". Apologies offered.
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khittner wrote:
Yes, an exhaust gas temperature "over 1000c" would indicate something's amiss---you might be scootering across the surface of the sun. Razz emoticon
Or air/fuel mixture is lean.
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Partanen wrote:
khittner wrote:
Yes, an exhaust gas temperature "over 1000c" would indicate something's amiss---you might be scootering across the surface of the sun. Razz emoticon
Or air/fuel mixture is lean.
Actually, it is not the absolute EGT that gives you meaningful mixture information, but the relative EGT. EGT is at its highest when your mixture is at the stoichiometric (optimal combustion) point, approximately 14.7 parts air to 1 part Fuel (by weight). If your fuel/air mix is leaner (more than 14.7 parts air) than the stoichiometric point, the EGT decreases, and if it is richer (less than 14.7 parts air) than stoichiometric, the EGT also decreases.

The real temperature question is whether or not a given engine can withstand the CHT and combustion chamber pressures involved with a truly stoichiometric mixture to begin with, and that has nothing to do with a specific EGT or EGT "limit".
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How come then lean mixture will burn hole to piston?
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Partanen wrote:
How come then lean mixture will burn hole to piston?
"Lean" or "less rich"? There is a big difference, though most people use the terms "lean" and "rich" very poorly and very loosely.

"Lean" means a greater air to fuel ratio than the stoichiometric point. "Rich" means a lower air to fuel ratio than the stoichiometric point.

If an engine is more properly run on the "rich" side of the stoichiometric point, which is often the case, then a "less rich" (or "leaner") mixture will increase combustion temperatures. However, that mixture may very well still be "richer" than stoichiometric.

If an engine is more properly run on the "lean" side of the stochiometric point, then a "more lean" (or "leaner") mixture will reduce combustion temperatures.

A lot of factors cause the excessive temperatures that result in a holed piston. Mixture, timing, detonation from wrong octane fuel are some of the causative factors. You can have a dead on correct mixture and still suffer detonation or too much spark advance that will hole your piston.
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Aviator47 wrote:
....
If an engine is more properly run on the "lean" side of the stochiometric point, then a "more lean" (or "leaner") mixture will reduce combustion temperatures.
.....
I have doubts about this.

I don't know if the stoichiometric mixture can burn any piston, but leaner than that surely can. Air leak at intake manifold or failed fuel injector could burn the piston. Isn't that leaner than stoichiometric if anything.
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Partanen wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
....
If an engine is more properly run on the "lean" side of the stochiometric point, then a "more lean" (or "leaner") mixture will reduce combustion temperatures.
.....
I have doubts about this.

I don't know if the stoichiometric mixture can burn any piston, but leaner than that surely can. Air leak at intake manifold or failed fuel injector could burn the piston. Isn't that leaner than stoichiometric if anything.
Have all the doubt you want, but perhaps you might read a textbook or two.

Combustion temperature is at its peak at the stoichiometric point. At its peak. In the case of gasoline, it is the point of most complete combustion, thus producing the most energy and the most heat.
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More oxygen creates more heat. More oxygen and metal will melt. Does not matter how well mixture burns at that time, it still burn hole to the piston.

Stoichiometric mixture is needed for catalytic converter which my PX does not have.

I'll go reading because I'm amazed. Or then I don't go.
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Oxygen does not burn. Rather it combines with the fuel in the combustion process to create energy. If oxygen burned, you wouldn't need gasoline. The stoichiometric mix is where one unit of oxygen chemically combines with one unit of fuel in complete combustion. The combustion chamber can only intake a given amount of total fuel and oxygen per stroke. Too little oxygen in that given mix, and some fuel is not consumed. Too much oxygen in that mix and less fuel is taken in and thus less is available to burn. Take in a 14.7:1 mix, and you get an optimum amount of fuel, and all the fuel is burned.

It's a "Goldilocks principle".

The typical naturally aspirated (carburetor) gasoline engine runs at about a 13:1 to 12:1 air/fuel mixture, which is "richer" than stoichiometric (about 14.7:1). Thus, when you "lean" such a mixture, you bring it closer to the stoichiometric mix, increasing combustion temperatures, until you pass over to the "lean" side of stoichiometric (14.7:1), and combustion temps decrease.

But if your logic makes you happy, then be happy.
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Aviator47 wrote:
Oxygen does not burn.
And gasoline does not burn without oxygen.
Aviator47 wrote:
The typical naturally aspirated (carburetor) gasoline engine runs at about a 13:1 to 12:1 air/fuel mixture, which is "richer" than stoichiometric (about 14.7:1).
Yes because it gives more power than stoichiometric mix.

*************

I hear your logic at first time, so I keep my rights to change my point of view. At the moment I'm pretty sure I don't have to change it.
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Partanen wrote:
Yes because it gives more power than stoichiometric mix.

*************

I hear your logic at first time, so I keep my rights to change my point of view. At the moment I'm pretty sure I don't have to change it.
Which is why I said you might want to read a couple of text books. Nothing gives more power than a stoichiometric mix.
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And I said stoichiometric mix is only because of catalytic converter. It doesn't give best fuel economy nor best power.

*****************

Anyway a new oil pump is on its way. Let's hope it's the right one.
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I used to play with trying to get an internal conbustion engine to run on water and feel I have had this conversation a few times. What is meant by 'burn'. In the end we are talking about adding oxygen that in turn breaks a bond with one atom and forms a new bond with the oxygen. Thus releasing energy. We can talk about the perfect ratio of o2 and gas and how yes this does create the most energy and thus heat. We can talk about how most engines if not all do not run at this perfect mix and in turn use some of the fuel as a cushion and or lube. We can talk about the make up of gas and how it's a mix of pentane, septane, and octane and the smaller molucoles contain less energy but also brake apart or burn easier thus the ping or detenation before tdc if you do not have to much pentane and not enough octane. It is all very complex and confusing. I can't say I fully grasp it myself. I do know metal exspands when it gets hot. This growth in size of the piston and cylinder is what will cause a seize. So it makes sense to me if we are concerned to monitor this temp. Not that I know what is to hot. As far as 2 cycles go they do spit a lot of fuel and oil out into the air. The autoluber does a fair job of making this as minimal as it can. Im still thinking wear was caused by not having oil running thru the pump so hopefully replacing it has you back to a safe mixture. As for my water powered engine. I can get a 5hp briggs to start and idle on water but can not produce enough power from the contraption to make it useful for anything above a novelty.
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this thread is so boring. give it up guys.
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318ti wrote:
I do know metal exspands when it gets hot.
I got something that expands when it gets hot..........and it aint pretty.

Can I say that on national tv???
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My new pump looks much better:

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

And it appears to be pump for 200cc engine:

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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Hello

Is it really that shape?


Grumpy
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cheesy spuds
tapered?.... yes they are
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Yes, the shape cause up and down movement. At least two types of pump there is. Older and this newer model. I don't know when this newer model is introduced. My PX200 is from year 2003. I reckon one of the last ones.

************

Still I wonder if I should put some vaseline to lubricate this gear. 2 stroke oil or gear oil cannot reach this gear. Service manuals I've seen doesn't tell what to do.
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Partanen, the gear is indeed lubricated by gear oil.

Look carefully at the photo below. Do you see the "groove" coming off the small hole next to the screw at the bottom of the photo? When the engine is running gear oil comes up through that hole and travels along that channel, lubricating the gear.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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I see the groove now when you said it. Thanks. I'm about to go to my garage right now. I'm going to separate cases from each other. Maybe I then understand how gear oil can reach this gear. But if gear oil can reach this gear, then it would be mixed with 2 stroke oil, wouldn't it?
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No 2T oil enters the area above the pump body (the part that the gear shaft fits into). That's what the O-rings are for.
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No. Gear oil and engine oil do not mix.

This will help you visualize the system:

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Aviator47 wrote:
No 2T oil enters the area above the pump body (the part that the gear shaft fits into). That's what the O-rings are for.
Pumps rod which is like piston isn't sealed to its housing.
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Thank you for your patience. But when gear oil level is so low compared to oil pump I cannot see how gear oil could ever reach the oil pump. Not even when I just opened the engine casings. Nerd emoticon
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Look on the clutch side.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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I can see. That's why I cannot see how gear oil could reach oil pump gear, when oil level is so low, or down.

What brings oil up to oil pump gear? I would say gear oil cannot reach this gear.
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Wait until you have the engine running. Take a nice long ride, then pull the cover off the auto lube and see what kind of oil is there. It can be whatever you want it to be.

I have only seen evidence of 2T oil in the upper pump assy on one occasion - when the upper O-ring failed. The oil ran down into the gear box, causing an overfill condition and oil blowing out the vent.
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So, this newer oil pump needs vaseline to work properly, but Piaggio forget mention about it.
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Vaseline? Really? I doubt it.
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Partanen wrote:
What brings oil up to oil pump gear? I would say gear oil cannot reach this gear.
Yes it can and it does. I admire your curiosity and tenacity. You're asking great questions. But you underestimate the brilliance of Piaggio's engineers.

Hopefully you are sitting down because this is going to blow your mind.

4T gear oil is brought up from the bottom of the engine by the large drive gear which you can see in the photo I posted. Do you see the little "ledge" on the side of the gear?

As that gear rotates, that ledge scoops up 4T oil and flings it upward. The oil from that gear splashes onto the vertical shaft of the oil drive. It's drawn even farther UP into the carb box by tiny helical spiral cuts in the shaft (see the photo below). The 4T oil circulates up in the pump assembly and then returns back to the clutch/gearbox.

It's a very elegantly designed system.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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I would say the spiral is only to lubricate shaft itself. I'm not sure it could lubricate oil pump gear cog. If it does then some gear oil would be mixed to 2 stroke oil.

When opened this there was red vaseline. Same staff what I found from clutch release mechanism.
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