OP
UTC

Addicted
1961 vbb and 1981 p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 579
Location: iowa
 
Addicted
1961 vbb and 1981 p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 579
Location: iowa
UTC quote
This really has little to do with scooters but thought maybe others would be interested. A few years back I became interested in alternate fuels. It started with attempts to just increase mileage by supper heating gas before it entered the combustion camber and injecting water into the intake. This does increase mileage. The down side is heating fuel is dangerous. Water injection also increased the mileage. This turned to the idea of running on water as fuel. Basic idea is if you run electricty into water you boil off the hydrogen. They call this electrolese. Forgive the spelling. If you want to try this at home, take a bucket of water drop the pos and neg ends of your battery charger in it and put a lid on. In a min or two open the lid and drop a match in. The hydrogen will light on fire. It's kinda fun to. Anyhow. Taking this idea a I built a fuel cell with multi cathodes to boil off the water. From the top of the container I ran a butterfly valve to attempt to control fuel supply and ran the hose into the intake of a 5hp brigg and strat engine. The wires from the mag were run into a sqaure wave generator and then a coil to up the ampage. A battery charger was used to start production of hydrogen then the engine was started. After the engine was running the charger could be unplugged and the engine would chug along without a care in world. Despite many attempts the vary the the rpms the sad truth of the matter is it would not produce enough hydrogen from the water to go any faster. Turning the battery charger on would increase the hydrogen production and thus the speed but you can't carry a battery charger down the road. Anyhow, life got busy the project sat and rusted as well as many useful parts of my brain. I every so often think back on the project and wonder if someone with more money and more brains than I was working on it could it be done. I know there are many nay sayers will say it can't be done, but I have seen an engine start on only water.
@sfvsr avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
 
Ossessionato
@sfvsr avatar
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
UTC quote
Alright. It's official. Too much internet for you. You are getting dangerously close "TurtleVespa" territory (without posting the pictures).

Also, in regards to hydrogen gas: no need to toss a match in, since it will explode when you pull the lid off. And that is if it doesn't explode before and shoots the lid into your face knocking all your teeth out.

Anyone who tries such a goofy experiment in a manner you describe is a bloody fucking idiot.
OP
UTC

Addicted
1961 vbb and 1981 p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 579
Location: iowa
 
Addicted
1961 vbb and 1981 p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 579
Location: iowa
UTC quote
So now would or wouldn't be a good time to tell tales of mixing ammonna and iodine across the road and hiding in the ditch till a car came and watch it. Lol. Or the time we filled a car inner tube with lp stuck it under a junk car throw a little gas on it then got on the car and dropped a match. What was my point? Oh it may be a little foolish but you only live once. I thought it may be a subject others enjoyed. I would have been working on this ten plus years ago. Perhaps before Al gore invented the internet. Perhaps I should look and see if others are playing with this idea.
@october avatar
UTC

Addicted
64 allstate, 66 sprint, 74 primavera, 79 P125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 788
Location: Maine
 
Addicted
@october avatar
64 allstate, 66 sprint, 74 primavera, 79 P125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 788
Location: Maine
UTC quote
I enjoyed the part where you filled the inner tube with propane...
UTC

Addicted
SS208, SX250 , RD's and a K1300s and an RZ350 and TZR250
Joined: UTC
Posts: 567
 
Addicted
SS208, SX250 , RD's and a K1300s and an RZ350 and TZR250
Joined: UTC
Posts: 567
UTC quote
water powered engine
I don't know if this really needs to be written...but here goes...

Let's say it takes a certain amount of electrical energy to split water into Hydrogen and Oxygen. Let's again assume a certain amount of energy is produced when Hydrogen is oxidized into water. Not amazingly, these two processes take the same amount of energy. Now given that there is inefficiency in each of the processes (some of the electricity gets lost, some of the hydrogen escapes, the hydrogen does not completely burn, there is friction in the motor, the motor gets warm, the exhaust is warm, etc.)...It all adds up to not being able to run forever.

What you describe is one item that the US Patent office has a strict rule on, they will not even entertain for a moment the idea of a perpetual motion machine for patent, because it does not exist...
@sfvsr avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
 
Ossessionato
@sfvsr avatar
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
UTC quote
TR, you are a true slayer of dreams.
UTC

nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
 
nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
UTC quote
You all are complicating this more than need be.

Lets look at it this way........

The human body cant even run on just water eventually it needs fuel. If you don't feed the human machine it uses its mass to survive but eventually vitals breakdown and we die.

Try just seeing if your body will burn just water.......aint happenin folks.

Gotta griz on stuff. Just like our motors need fuel. Carbon based mother earth in a liquid form. Good ole cooked and refined crude.
@joshzingzing avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
px200 cutdown,px180,px150. Puch SR. Puch scooterette
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5109
Location: west aus
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@joshzingzing avatar
px200 cutdown,px180,px150. Puch SR. Puch scooterette
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5109
Location: west aus
UTC quote
heat wave
i cant read that without paragraphs




my solar panels are putting out enough to run half a dozen houses with all the fruit at the moment though
@mr10 avatar
UTC

Hooked
150 GLx, Rally 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 256
Location: Netherlands
 
Hooked
@mr10 avatar
150 GLx, Rally 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 256
Location: Netherlands
UTC quote
Topic title is a bit misleading: we're talking about a 'water + electricity' powered engine - which is at all quite possible. Problem with hydrogen used to be how to store is safely in a fuel cell.
@speed_kills avatar
UTC

Addicted
Mostly Lambrettisti
Joined: UTC
Posts: 648
Location: SF, CA
 
Addicted
@speed_kills avatar
Mostly Lambrettisti
Joined: UTC
Posts: 648
Location: SF, CA
UTC quote
Feeling kinda thirsty. I'm headed to the well.
@mr10 avatar
UTC

Hooked
150 GLx, Rally 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 256
Location: Netherlands
 
Hooked
@mr10 avatar
150 GLx, Rally 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 256
Location: Netherlands
UTC quote
This was an interesting read;
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car
UTC

nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
 
nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
UTC quote
This is an even better read. Go down to the 'Scientific' section.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia

And better read for all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_nutrition
@t5bitza69 avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
T5s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 17005
Location: The West Of Yorkshire ... Gods Country
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@t5bitza69 avatar
T5s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 17005
Location: The West Of Yorkshire ... Gods Country
UTC quote
wet mesen
there ......

@aviator47 avatar
UTC

Moderator
2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12955
Location: Paros Island, Greece
 
Moderator
@aviator47 avatar
2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12955
Location: Paros Island, Greece
UTC quote
Personally, I think Johann Joachim Becher hit the nail on the head when he developed what became known as the phlogiston theory. Since 7th Grade General Science, that's been my favorite approach to maximizing combustion energy.
@roadster avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Kymco AK550
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1163
Location: UK
 
Molto Verboso
@roadster avatar
Kymco AK550
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1163
Location: UK
UTC quote
Surely the only low cost fuel alternative is methane. Its not taxed by the gov. and you need very little external power input to generate it.

Basically a biological digester that takes human and/or animal waste and uses bacteria to break it down will give you all the methane you could ever want. You will then need to compress it and mount a pressurised tank on your scooter.

If someone somewhere in the world is not doing exactly that I would be very surprised.
@sfvsr avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
 
Ossessionato
@sfvsr avatar
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
UTC quote
roadster wrote:
You will then need to compress it and mount a pressurised tank on your scooter.

And then when you get in an accident that tank explodes and rips you half.
@aviator47 avatar
UTC

Moderator
2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12955
Location: Paros Island, Greece
 
Moderator
@aviator47 avatar
2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12955
Location: Paros Island, Greece
UTC quote
SFvsr wrote:
roadster wrote:
You will then need to compress it and mount a pressurised tank on your scooter.

And then when you get in an accident that tank explodes and rips you half.
Have you no sense of adventure?
UTC

Molto Verboso
px200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1269
Location: london
 
Molto Verboso
px200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1269
Location: london
UTC quote
Iodine and ammonia and blotting paper brings back happy memories.

Grumpy
UTC

nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
 
nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
UTC quote
SFvsr wrote:
roadster wrote:
You will then need to compress it and mount a pressurised tank on your scooter.

And then when you get in an accident that tank explodes and rips you half.
Sometimes my compressed gas feels like its gonna rip me in half I tell ya.
@xkrebstarx avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1966 Bluebadge, 1974 Super 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1117
Location: New York City
 
Molto Verboso
@xkrebstarx avatar
1966 Bluebadge, 1974 Super 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1117
Location: New York City
UTC quote
jimmyb865 wrote:
SFvsr wrote:
roadster wrote:
You will then need to compress it and mount a pressurised tank on your scooter.

And then when you get in an accident that tank explodes and rips you half.
Sometimes my compressed gas feels like its gonna rip me in half I tell ya.
Here's a fantastic documentary about how one boy saved the world with an experimental fuel source. Enlightening!
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
UTC

Molto Verboso
px200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1269
Location: london
 
Molto Verboso
px200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1269
Location: london
UTC quote
Hello


Remembering the scene in blazing saddles or was it an advert.

Grumpy
@qascooter avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4283
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
@qascooter avatar
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4283
Location: Florence, OR
UTC quote
Mongo like beans....
@oopsclunkthud avatar
UTC

Banned
3:5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8989
Location: San Francisco
 
Banned
@oopsclunkthud avatar
3:5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8989
Location: San Francisco
UTC quote
Aviator47 wrote:
Personally, I think Johann Joachim Becher hit the nail on the head when he developed what became known as the phlogiston theory. Since 7th Grade General Science, that's been my favorite approach to maximizing combustion energy.
Thank you! I had long forgotten that little detour.
@t5bitza69 avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
T5s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 17005
Location: The West Of Yorkshire ... Gods Country
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@t5bitza69 avatar
T5s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 17005
Location: The West Of Yorkshire ... Gods Country
UTC quote
pow
UTC

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2537
Location: Siam
 
Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2537
Location: Siam
UTC quote
Re: pow
T5bitza69 wrote:
It's a toss up between this and the Chinese girl getting smashed in the rear end.
@aviator47 avatar
UTC

Moderator
2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12955
Location: Paros Island, Greece
 
Moderator
@aviator47 avatar
2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12955
Location: Paros Island, Greece
UTC quote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
Personally, I think Johann Joachim Becher hit the nail on the head when he developed what became known as the phlogiston theory. Since 7th Grade General Science, that's been my favorite approach to maximizing combustion energy.
Thank you! I had long forgotten that little detour.
In 9th Grade, we created a Phlogiston Society as a bit of a joke. Would gather at the local soda fountain for "meetings".
@cubastreet avatar
UTC

Hooked
rollin on 8s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 283
Location: NZ
 
Hooked
@cubastreet avatar
rollin on 8s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 283
Location: NZ
UTC quote
somebody put a gasifier on their vespa NOW!
OP
UTC

Addicted
1961 vbb and 1981 p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 579
Location: iowa
 
Addicted
1961 vbb and 1981 p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 579
Location: iowa
UTC quote
In 9th grade for a science fair I used a syphon setup and had the pouring water run a water wheel to light up some LEDs . I called it a self contained hydrodamn the teachers called it a perpepal motion machine and disqualified it despite it running for the entire school day. Its always amazes me how many ney sayers there are who have never tried. I'm not claiming to know the science behind this. What is clear is hydrogen does burn or bond with o2. And this is what is driving the engine. What is also clear is the engine is able to produce enough electrical power to break the bond holding the hydrogen to the o2. At the time I was playing with this I did write a couple papers and talked with many people about it. Oddly enough with enough screaching some of it is refanced on diff internet sites. Heck some claim they even have the thing working. All kinds of stuff on browns gas. As for scooter power. What about compressed air, like that girls rocket. Engines can run on compressed air. I'm sure some of you will be knocked on your butts by by power. Its a chance we may need to take.
@sfvsr avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
 
Ossessionato
@sfvsr avatar
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
UTC quote
All the internet-forum science in the world and you can't spell simple words. I call bullshit on your LED project from 1978.
UTC

Molto Verboso
px200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1269
Location: london
 
Molto Verboso
px200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1269
Location: london
UTC quote
Compressed air works really well, only you cannot store it easily or in quantity, liquid air works even better if you can keep it cold enough for long enough.

Grumpy
@sfvsr avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
 
Ossessionato
@sfvsr avatar
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
UTC quote
Grumpy wrote:
Compressed air works really well, only you cannot store it easily or in quantity, liquid air works even better if you can keep it cold enough for long enough.

Grumpy
All the hot air from this thread could power the universe forever!!
@bar_italia_classics avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1974 Rally 200, 1977 Rally 200, 1958 LD125 Mk III, 1965 S.S. 180 and on and on
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1308
Location: Van Nuys, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@bar_italia_classics avatar
1974 Rally 200, 1977 Rally 200, 1958 LD125 Mk III, 1965 S.S. 180 and on and on
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1308
Location: Van Nuys, CA
UTC quote
318ti wrote:
At the time I was playing with this I did write a couple papers and talked with many people about it. ...
Where were the papers published? Before they were published, how was the peer review accomplished, anonymous or open peer?


Some of us take that science junk seriously.
@oopsclunkthud avatar
UTC

Banned
3:5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8989
Location: San Francisco
 
Banned
@oopsclunkthud avatar
3:5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8989
Location: San Francisco
UTC quote
I think perpetual motion machines ought to be allowed to be entered in science fairs, but the whole class then has to figure out where the energy is coming from. If the students can't figure it out then the teacher explains it.

Most of us have seen, or thought we saw, devices that behave this way. In all of these cases the second law of thermodynamics must be observed, it's just not always obvious how.
@sfvsr avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
 
Ossessionato
@sfvsr avatar
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
UTC quote
Bar Italia Classics wrote:
318ti wrote:
At the time I was playing with this I did write a couple papers and talked with many people about it. ...
Where were the papers published? Before they were published, how was the peer review accomplished, anonymous or open peer?


Some of us take that science junk seriously.
He wrote some papers... In 9th Grade. And by peer review we do agree that the root word is pee, right?
@tishabet avatar
UTC

Hooked
1974 Rally 200 (US), 1974 Primavera 125 (US), 1963 Solex 2200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 137
Location: Boston-> Kuala Lumpur -> Seattle
 
Hooked
@tishabet avatar
1974 Rally 200 (US), 1974 Primavera 125 (US), 1963 Solex 2200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 137
Location: Boston-> Kuala Lumpur -> Seattle
UTC quote
As a hard scientist, I'm just going to say this once....


There oughta be a law Nerd emoticon
@sfvsr avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
 
Ossessionato
@sfvsr avatar
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
UTC quote
Tishabet wrote:
As a hard scientist, I'm just going to say this once....


There oughta be a law Nerd emoticon
Euthanasia is not legal in the USA.
OP
UTC

Addicted
1961 vbb and 1981 p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 579
Location: iowa
 
Addicted
1961 vbb and 1981 p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 579
Location: iowa
UTC quote
No not peer reviewed. Stuff written more of as a blog of sorts in the early nineties. The internet was much different at that time. I was able to find reference to myself on a forum for people interested in water powered cars. It was a kinda cool web site. Anyhow in another topic we on MV we were talking fuel ratios and such and it made me think back at this part of my life and project. I thought it may entertain others here. I'm typing on my cell phone so please forgive any spelling mistakes. I am not proof reading by any means. Weather or not its real science or not I get the feeling its just turning to personal attacks, and that to bad. I always hope when I speak with people about this that it will inspire them to go one step farther. But we can write it off as alchemy if you like.
@sfvsr avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
 
Ossessionato
@sfvsr avatar
a lambretta or two
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3724
Location: San Francisco
UTC quote
Thank god this has come to an end.
UTC

nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
 
nothing at all
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9656
Location: westla
UTC quote
This thread is a perpetual perplexing packaderm of pulverizing pompous motion.
UTC

Addicted
SS208, SX250 , RD's and a K1300s and an RZ350 and TZR250
Joined: UTC
Posts: 567
 
Addicted
SS208, SX250 , RD's and a K1300s and an RZ350 and TZR250
Joined: UTC
Posts: 567
UTC quote
Hey 318ti,

No personal attacks meant, and I am sorry if you feel it has come to that...but honestly, you think this could work? I have a feeling you are just putting us all on...Some sort of pre-xmas April Fool's...
DoubleGood Design banner

Modern Vespa is the premier site for modern Vespa and Piaggio scooters. Vespa GTS300, GTS250, GTV, GT200, LX150, LXS, ET4, ET2, MP3, Fuoco, Elettrica and more.

Buy Me A Coffee
 

Shop on Amazon with Modern Vespa

Modern Vespa is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com


All Content Copyright 2005-2024 by Modern Vespa.
All Rights Reserved.


[ Time: 0.0210s ][ Queries: 4 (0.0061s) ][ live ][ 313 ][ ThingOne ]