Modern Vespa

Is the clutch holder tool the same as other Vespas, like this:


Motorsports doesn't seem to have it in stock, but they have the rest of the goodies. I see this tool at other places but it isn't clear to me if there is a difference between largeframe and smallframe for this.

If your going to change your clutch. You need a puller not a holder. And it's different for large and smallframes.

Yes I will order the puller but don't I need the holder to get the nut out without it spinning?

Thats where you use the Penny trick, and wedge a penny between the cogs on the clutch the primary.

it works great.. you'll ruin a penny though!

Actually if you are just replacing plates the is no need to remove the nut/inner spider. You can compress the clutch in situ and remove the retainer ring and build up new plates. You can even replace the spring this way.

Is he just replacing plates Marc? I didn't see that.. and if so, what you're talking about is using the 32mm socket or the tool right?

Yeah the goal is to replace the plates and steels, renew the spring, etc. How can I get it disassembled in situ? Seems like most people yank it out but I'm all ears.

Remove exhaust. Toss bike up on 6x12 block. Remove carb and release sleeve/bellow from intake pipe. Release engine from shock so it swings down remove hub and brake plate. Remove clutch cover and pressure plate. There is a special compressor tool, but I use a 32mm socket cupped over the clutch puller. A small stack of washer for the puller bolt to pass through and this compresses the spring plate so you can get the retaining clip off. Then all the plates come out and if you need to get the spring out undo the puller bolt.

No- that is a largeframe clutch hook.

There is a proper factory tool that is a clutch holder for smallframes. It's not exactly common and I do not think I have ever seen a reproduction. It slides in one of the basket slots and has a nub on the back side that locks against the engine case. It works pretty well.

There are other aftermarket holders on the market; jamming something in the gears will work but I wouldn't recomend it.

This sounds like the ticket. Nice suggestion. I get nervous with stuff in the gears though I see most do use the penny, so it's probably safe 8) .

I haven't seen an aftermarket holder either.. if anyone knows where to find it post it up.

The penny trick comes straight from scooterhelp and small frame forum.. the softness of the copper seemed to take the force and it worked very well.

You think using a copper penny will harm the gear teeth Rob?

Its probably along the lines of shoving rope in the topend to hold the piston for loosening/tightening the front primary on the lambretta.

I did it once and now I use a rod holding tool(tuning fork).

I've seen holders online that engage the entire spider basket, all the fingers. I've also ruined 2 spiders jamming a bar in to hold it, fairly soft stuff. Used the penny myself. You might try nylon rope

Aren't pennies mostly aluminum nowadays ?

Mmm, and the penny won't work once you've removed the plates.

As for doing stuff while the clutch is still in the bike, this is one Diego showed me.. he made his own, and Marcs socket version works, so there are options.

As far as the penny goes, I don't onow what they're made of.. it worked well, but if I can find or make a holder I'll use it instead?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vespa-Small-frame-Clutch-Plate-Compressor-/200969694037

If your pulling it out as one pc, then you can loosen the nut with and impact and it won't spin, use the puller and your good to go. I didn't think that you might be loosening it manually, so yes you might need some thing to hold it.

I to have used the penny without any damage. Also Marc's socket trick is a great idea. Or someone makes these clutch compressors that bolt to the case. Makes it easy.

There are a few different holders out there aftermarket.

Teeth are one thing, but i'd be worried about the bearings more.

Not that it wouldn't work, just that it's not how i'd do it. I usually use a piston stop for all my shaft rotational stopping needs.

Ok.. copy that. thank you.

Ahh the old nylon rope trick - been there done that! The Vespa layout still throws me for a loop sometimes but I see immediately how that would work also.

I like the 32mm socket, it's the same as that fancy extractor on e-bay without shipping from the UK 8) .

It's probably advisable to drain the gearbox oil prior to removing hub and backplate.

I just did mine first time and Haynes was no help with getting in there. I just winged it but I didn't do the underlined portions above. Undoing all that carb stuff would be no fun. I didn't have any access problems I can recall.

Thanks for all the tips, this thread is a perfect example of why I asked the question. I am much further ahead due to all your suggestions.

Yes, I plan to drain the oil to swap it out anyhow. Thanks for the tip too that it might work with carb on. I'll be sure to watch out for interference. It's not too big a deal to pop it off the end of the manifold though, as I've been doing re-jetting lately anyhow so I'm already used to it.

Parts and tools ordered today. Now I have to go find that block of wood / milk crate / whatever .

Proper tools, overrated. What a waste of time.

Ive been able to fuck things up just fine with a hammer and screwdriver.

Another tip is to line up the woodruff key @ 12 o'clock if you plan on removing the entire clutch pack. Also stuff a rag in the engine case opening to thwart any desire to drop any object(s) down there.

This!

I recommend drilling a hole in the penny and threading a piece of string through it so you can retrieve it if it falls in the cases. It's easier than turning the motor or scooter upside down to shake it out.

Modern pennies are steel with copper plate. Find one pre-1975 and it should be copper if I remember correctly.

Zinc actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_(United_States_coin)

Zinc is nice and soft so they work great to hold the gear.

Dang it. Sorry, I should have checked the www first. Thanks Oopps

1943 they were called zinc,silver color.

I wouldn't want to flip a bike up-side-down!

Here... use any penny except the zinc coated steel penny from 1943!

The composition was pure copper from 1793 to 1837.
From 1837 to 1857, the cent was made of bronze (95 percent copper, and five percent tin and zinc).
From 1857, the cent was 88 percent copper and 12 percent nickel, giving the coin a whitish appearance.
The cent was again bronze (95 percent copper, and five percent tin and zinc) from 1864 to 1962.
(Note: In 1943, the coin's composition was changed to zinc-coated steel. This change was only for the year 1943 and was due to the critical use of copper for the war effort. However, a limited number of copper pennies were minted that year. You can read more about the rare, collectible 1943 copper penny in "What's So Special about the 1943 Copper Penny.")
In 1962, the cent's tin content, which was quite small, was removed. That made the metal composition of the cent 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc.
The alloy remained 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc until 1982, when the composition was changed to 97.5 percent zinc and 2.5 percent copper (copper-plated zinc). Cents of both compositions appeared in that year.

Oops them43's were called steel penny's ,good catch!

still, i'd keep in mind that putting something between the gears to lock them puts an intense load in the bearings. it basically turns the gears into levers, and puts an intense prying force upon them pushing the shafts apart.

I'm gonna try the 32mm socket clutch compressor first. I'll report back.

You still have to remove the clutch nut AND the lock washer to get the clutch puller on there... this is one of those times where an impact wrench is your friend.

Thanks Diego, I wasn't realizing that .

Penny or rope trick in the top end it is then... I built my stand and have most of the parts now, going to be doing it on the 3rd shift (after kids go to bed and wife falls asleep ).

I looked at the scooterhelp page again and I see exactly what you mean Diego. Thanks.

Good point Diego. I forgot about that. It's why I ditched the tabbed washer in favor of a flat washer and loctite. IIRC, the puller will then thread on over the nut for future work.

Yeah I don't even use woodruff keys on SF clutches anymore but that's a whole other story for high(ER) hp engines.

Motorsport has it perfectly... Copper penny drilled and string attached. Also stuff a rag in the cavity under the basket in case the woodruff key falls out when you remove the clutch.

Bail on the stock lock washer and find a wavy washer to suit the threads. That way you can use the "in the bike" compressor tool or appropriate socket. I also use blue locktite for the clutch nut.

OK, to be thorough I wanted to report back on this one.

I used the rope trick to immobilize the piston and let me get the clutch nut and washer off. Then I threaded the nut back on and used the 32mm socket method to pull the retaining ring. This worked pretty well. However, the socket was sitting on the thinner oil control ring for compressing the clutch, and that thing is kinda wimpy, so there is risk of hurting its shape.

What I couldn't find any way to do is to get that mess back together using the 32mm socket. With the spring in and the case in the way, I couldn't figure out how to fit that stack of plates to allow me to rebuild the socket over clutch tool contraption. If I did get everything started, I couldn't turn the bolt in the clutch tool without the socket slipping. I gave up because it was all a contortion act anyway with the engine still in the bike.

So I yanked out the basket and built it off line. If I'd have bothered to look at scooterhelp again before building it, I'd have seen that you compress the bottom plate to the basket and just slide the rest in rather than trying to sandwich the whole mess at one time, which is what I tried at first (FAIL).

Then I dropped that clutch woodruff key, and later found it outside the engine because my rag did save my ass after all. But before I knew that I pulled the engine and found how much easier it is to work on it outside the frame. The last tricky part was getting the tabs on the corks to be pretty much perfect so I could drop it in. It took a few tries but it all went together.