Modern Vespa

Hi all,

I recently returned from a trip to the Philippines (http://www.waterstep.org)

It was my first experience in a Scooter dominated society.

Few traffic control devices. I think Cebu City had 4 traffic lights that I saw.

My first thoughts was OMG I'm going to get hit.

I didn't, but am trying to understand why it works. Wanted to pick fellow MVr's minds.

1) Speeds almost never get above 25 mph.
2) People looked out for each other -- this wasn't just driving.
3) People were hyper vigilant
4) People didn't get mad
5) I didn't see trucks larger than a suzuki brute. Yes I saw two container trucks but they were not the norm and (only short contrainers)
6) People weren't rushed - things happen when they do
7) A uniform horn communication scheme


Yes 2,3,4 are similar but I think they are different.

Please add to this list if you think something can be added.

I felt safe. Something I have never felt here in the US on a scooter.

Pretty interesting, isn't it? I felt the same thing in Thailand. Traffic there snarls, for sure, but folks don't get pissed off, they just take it in stride. No lines on the road, no "ownership" of the lane, people just ebb and flow based on their observations. If a car moves into your lane, you just adjust over and give them room. Likewise if you move into their lane. It's like a giant choreographed dance...but when it goes bad it really goes bad! Saw a few ugly wrecks; even at 25mph an unbuckled car passenger or scooter driver does not fare well. not pretty.

Coming in late one night (4, maybe 5am?) solved the mystery of not seeing big trucks during the day - they all roll in throughout the night. Drop off/pick up and then out of the city before it wakes up.

Glad you enjoyed your trip!

Interesting, I guess it's a different outlook on life, who knows. Down here in Furnace it's pretty aggressive driving and definitely not scooter friendly. Very little patrolling by the local gendarmes, thought that had a lot to do with it. Probably just not caring about anyone but themselves, here.

Biggest problem with driving in the US, is the last thing on anyone's mind who is behind a steering wheel, is driving.

I can testify to this. In the winter, I spend my holidays in Thailand where I do some scootering. My observations are along the same lines. There's practically no hostility or anger shown under any circumstances. Very few traffic lights or signs. Most people ignore sign posts anyway, even in Europe.

I think you might like the ideas of Hans Monderman, a now deceased Dutch traffic designer, who introduced the concept of shared space in urban communities. One of his approaches is to do away with traffic control. Once this is achieved, the people start taking responsibility themselves and a more considerate culture emerges.

In Southeast Asia, the people and road users are unknowingly using the very same concept of shared space in their everyday commuting. We as Europeans have lost that sensibility and human interaction in traffic. Now it can be reclaimed if one sticks to Monderman's principles.

More on the subject:

http://www.wilsonquarterly.com/essays/traffic-guru http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533248/Is-this-the-end-of-the-road-for-traffic-lights.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/road-safety/2743688/Rip-them-out.html http://www.theguardian.com/news/2008/feb/02/mainsection.obituaries http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/22/international/europe/22monderman.html?_r=0 Hans Monderman:


It now seems that many of Monderman's ideas live on and his theories are steadily gaining more support.

http://www.dw.de/european-towns-remove-traffic-signs-to-make-streets-safer/a-2143663-1

Hyvva paiva to you in Finland!

I have read about the "shared space" concept and was initially sceptical. I have read further and experienced some limited examples and I totally get it!

The more people take responsibility for themselves whilst interacting more fully with the rest of humanity, rather than the "bubble" mentality of all the signs, lines and lights giving them permission to drive badly BUT protected by the Laws that they only just stay within.

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Hyvää päivää sinnekin! Thanks for the kind remark and greeting.

Like any truely new fresh thinking, shared space and traffic without ubiquitous control can be quite incomprehensible. It really must be seen with one's own eyes to believe. These thoughts only have to be sold to those who decide. Old habits die hard.

Sometimes we must be told what is good for us, sometimes all is needed is just asking the right people about it -- not just road builders or rank-and-file engineers, whose sole purpose is to go on with their source of revenue. Sometimes there really is no other alternative, because all previously known methods have been exhausted and failed (like in the case of Poynton).

Tunnel vision, stagnation and hierarchical systems produce stale fruit. That's why there must be some brilliant people (whom we deservedly call geniuses when they finally succeed and manage to push their ideas through the red tape) to do the initial thinking for us common people.

Here's one more example from the UK:

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/04/lots-cars-and-trucks-no-traffic-signs-or-lights-chaos-or-calm/5152/

While Monderman's idea sounds spiffy, I would suggest he lacked understanding of sociology and culture, as he seems to be ascribing a cause and effect relationship without evidence supporting it.

It could very well be that some cultures are simply more respectful of each other to begin with, and did not need traffic control measures to artificially create "respect". i.e.- The absence of traffic control devices does not cause Filipinos to be more respectful of other vehicles on the road, their cultural tendency to not "stake out turf" causes it. Conversely, the European/American concept of legally defining personal property and "rights" requires traffic control devices to define who holds what rights in a given situation.

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Monderman always maintained that it is not out of respect that the system works -- but out of fear of collision and uncertainty. By removing the legal and physical protection one becomes liable for one's own actions. You really can only blame yourself if something goes awry if you fail to negotiate with the road users. You cannot blame the yield sign or right of way. Without traffic signs telling what's ahead motorists are clueless and behave accordingly -- slow down and drive cautiously. Instead of looking at signs and lights, drivers must concentrate on the road and the mixed bunch of road users.

Much later on, when people have gotten used to the shared space traffic system, there will be "respect" just like any normal person would feel towards other people who come down to a human level (not speeding from green light to red light). It's people that become the focal point, not the signs. By mixing different kind of road users together (pedestrians, cyclists, scooterists, motorcyclist and motorists) no one user has any perceived control of the space. With traffic lights removed, decreasing speeds do not affect time used from point A to point B.

Thai people or other Asian people are no more respectful either (they mainly show open aggression less frequently, hence road rage is less common). Here in Thailand it is the seemingly chaotic traffic that creates cautiousness. Nobody wants to collide deliberately -- especially when so many vehicles are uninsured. http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/04/lots-cars-and-trucks-no-traffic-signs-or-lights-chaos-or-calm/5152/

I wonder how the system would work here in New York, where traffic controls are in place, but largely ignored by pedestrians and bicyclists, at least, and to some extent by motorists as well. To me, the existing system seems to work pretty well, but I'm a big advocate of the concept of people figuring out their own system for solving this sort of problem.

Brendan

I kinda like it. Take away seat belts, air bags, crumple zones, steel bracing and child seats and let Darwin sort 'em out. Two rules: if you have an accident you lose your license. If you are caught driving without a license you go to jail.

My apologies go to Olstykke, the OP of this thread that I seem to have hijacked -------------
Wouldn't Times Square make a wonderful shared space if converted ingeniously?

Then again Monderman says: --------------
Monderman: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/22/international/europe/22monderman.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0 http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2011/09/shared-spaces/116/