Modern Vespa

I am looking to re-build my Px 200 and my p200 engines, before I strip them down, is there anything in the way of damage or wear and tear that would make the engine un-repairable?
What would you inspect before you re-placed the bearings and seals?
I know I have to inspect the crank to see if it had been knocking the frame, to what extent with this type of wear and tear would make the engine not worthwhile re-building?
How would I know if the crank needed re-placing?
please answer my questions, many thanks.

to MV from the Sunny Aegean!

This thread has been moved to the Not So Modern Forum. That's where the folks who are shifty Vespa enthusiasts tend to hang out, giving you a better shot at a quick answer. NSM is home to all shifty Vespas, regardless of year and model. Get ready to get a heap of info!

Once you pull the head and cylinder and can pull on the crank, straight up and down when at TDC , you will probably know if the crank is any good, There is always a side to side play. The rotary pad can be checked from the outside with the leak down method. Everything is pretty much repairable unless there are some big stress cracks(unlikely). If you do split the case up you should replace the seals and cruciforms. The bearings should rotate smoothly without any play in them. If you have a fair amount of miles on the scoot, you may as well replace them while it's opened up. That's the simple version, you will probably get more intelligent responses forth coming.

got that my friend what does TDC mean? And thanks for your time, to what extent would the crank not be repairable?

TOP DEAD CENTRE.

Its the point where your piston is as high as it can get up the cylinder before it starts coming down again

Thanks for that, The rotary pad can be checked from the outside with the leak down method, rotary pad on what? What is the leak down method? Thanks for your patience.

So if the crank has a lot of play in it, it needs re-placing? Can a crank be re-paired, or bearings re-placed? Thanks again for your patience.

If the crank is rubbish, replace it. I would repair the bearings too. They are easy to do for the most part as long as you use some advice on methods etc. there are quite a few videos and web pages explaining how to do all of it. I am not at my computer right now else I would throw some links on here too. If you do split the case to rebuild then do everything that needs doing rather than curse in a few weeks/months that you need to split the case again.

Im building a px engine at the moment.

Things you will need:

Tools,
flywheel pull tool
clutch nut tool
flywheel holder,
clutch holder
crank removal tool (homemade will do)
clutch compressor (homemade will do)
circlip pliers (2 sizes maybe need)-use GOOD ones not the crappy 3 in 1's
Socket set including 19mm socket
lttle ziplock plastic bags and a vivid marker
possibly a torque wrench


Good case gaskets(dont forget to replace the kick start o ring)
including the clutch cover o ring
and carb gaskets
these 3 things are bought seperately

new woodruff key for flywheel (buy 2)

New crank seals- get the metal corteco type rather than the cheap rubber ones

plastic carb petrol filter thing

kick start rubber buffers

new oil and petrol hose

at least, rear brake pads

30 weight oil for gear box
2T for oil tank
a little pottle of plain grease

new cruciform- buy quality piaggio, ensure your selector rod has the spacer washer on the end, if not buy one too.



Things you may need

red loctight

can of crc carb cleaner

can of gasket stripper (or wood paint stripper will do) and some yellow goldilox gloves + PLASTIC scraper

a little wire brush set from the 2 dollar shop + a strong toothbrush-for scrubbing

Spring removal tool



After inspection you may also need

Kickstart layshaft gear

Rubber bushings for the cases and the rear top mount
carb box rubber if yours is split

a new stator or stator rewired if the wires are frayed where they pass through the stator

new spark plug

a new crankshaft and bearings for the crank(and bearing distance gauge)
new small end bearing
piston rings

new engine seals throughout (and possibly bearings for that matter)

woodruff key for clutch
clutch plates
clutch washer
bronze bush
and bronze clutch piston and plate

Tab washers-
input shaft

new exhaust

shims for your gears to engage properly

Tools(sockets, drifts, etc) to put the bearings and seals in-easier if a shop does this for you

cables

Someone to help set the timing with a strobe light once built and a TDC tool if required

It can be difficult or niggly if youve never done it before to remove the selector box or get the cases apart. ABSOLUTELY resist using screw drivers or pry bars between the faces to lever these apart.

Join a scooter club and someone there will help you as in real life help. They will most likely have the specialist tools for removal as well.

I think thats it

Cheers

Good rundown Trumpy. And here it is in 185 pictures from mr 10.

Good advice!
I'd start reading alot and watching you tube videos.
If you didn't know what tdc is, your in need of some serious education before starting.
I read for days before asking the first question or loosened the first bolt.
Its not hard with a community like this and the forums. Read the above thread and get cracking.
Good luck!

God that engine's so clean I want to lick it!

phewwwwwwwww, last time I rebuilt an engine I used a hammer to knock the stator plate off?

A torque wrench is a must. Also, while you are going through the process of splitting the case you should always replace the seals, cruciform and the kick start gear if need be. If I were you I would buy the proper tools first if you don't have them and slowly take one engine apart, taking notes and pictures along the way. Write down what parts are needed and place a large order. There is nothing more frustrating that having to stop the rebuild because of some part that you forgot to order. It also makes sense to order a few extra wear parts to have on hand like clutch bushings, clutch plates, carb gaskets, etc.. You may bugger up a clutch bushing during install (like me) and it sure is nice to have another close by. Take your time and enjoy the process and come Spring you'll have a scoot to ride that you rebuilt yourself. And that"s a nice feeling. As always, come here for any question and post pictures. We like pictures. Good Luck

All these tools you must have, every engine I ever re-built was with a socket set, an oven, a hammer, and a few screw drivers? The question was what would make an engine un-rebuildable?

Fine, Merry christmas,

For me it would have to be that a lion has made the engine its new home.



You saw the videos? its all in there.

Any engine is restorable, it just depends what your skill level is what specialist tools you have and what you have money for.


The list i gave you is what you need to rebuild your engine, otherwise all your actually doing is taking an engine apart and sitting it in boxes.

So in answer to your question
Poor planning, lack of tools, lack of knowledge, Youve taken the engine apart and are chuffed but have none of the consumables ive listed, and then you find a rooted gearbox, rooted bearings, rooted crank,piston and cylinder a rooted rotary pad and a lion that has made the case its home

So all the usual "damn its broken stuff" stops you from building an engine as well as "damn i wish i had that" stuff too.

Does that answer it? otherwise your question is too vague, youll need to be more specific about what it is you actually want to know

Yes these are the tools ive had to buy to rebuild my engine

I also have triumphs so ive got a load of whitworth and imperial fasteners and sockets. No matter what engine you have, if you dont have the right tools you will break stuff, it becomes expensive.

That is why i suggest you actually meet some guys at a scooter club, so they can assist you with the specialist tools and advice. But for heavens sake, dont rock up there without the minimal parts as listed to do an engine over and at least 2 boxes of beer.

ok im going back to my presents

here an example of what trumpy is referring to when you get things apart and they keep on getting worse:
the saga of my smallframe engine rebuild

i bought a vespa with a "bad clutch".
i though i was on easy street because a vespa clutch is an easy fix...
look at the last pic i posted. that is all that was salvageable.
no big deal. i have every tool that was suggested above now. makes it alot easier. sure, you can use a socket to install a bearing but if it goes in sideways, your up shit crick.
the tools are cheap and its frustrating trying to do it without them. im new at this but it seems like a breeze with the right tools

It is crazy that on the video above the guy operating the dremmel tool or air grinding tool is not wearing safety googles. I have a close friend that lost an eye in a freak accident using a drill bit.

Ok thanks for all your replies, here is question, what Damage to a Vespa engine would make it un-repairable?

Cracked engine casings probably. Almost everything else should be doable. If you have plenty of time I recommend to open the engine at first. This way you could save a lot of money when you see what is needed.

I opened my PX 200 engine recently. This is from year 2003 and clutch nut wasn't odd crown type, but more traditional nut. Some money saved when I didn't order special tool beforehand. 6mm bolt and screwdriver works as clutch holder. Just for example.

This leads to question why I would need a new woodruff key? Isn't it reusable?

Then again Malossi produce new engine casings for 200cc engine. Or you could try to find second hand parts. So even cracked casing is not a problem. It's all about how much money you want to spend to your hobby.

It is not likely to have engine that is non-repairable. You are more likely to make it non-repairable by beating in up, for example, with a hammer while trying to remove the bearings quickly (stupidly). Almost any thing can be repaired if you, as you said, want throw enough money at it. Unless the scoot has been rammed and crammed and beat all to hell, it will probably just need the usual wear parts replaced. You will need a few things - flywheel and clutch removal tools that are specific to that P line of Vespas. A good torque wrench is a must. You may need to borrow or take the case to your local shop to use a crank install tool. Other than that, the tools you own are probably good enough. Take your time, this is not a race. Good luck

Clutch should come out with couple of screwdrivers, quite easily.

What I was referring to as a clutch removal tool was a bad choice of words. What I should have said is the clutch center nut removal tool as it has a castled nut.

If the key is in good condition, of course, they can be reused. but they can shear or can be partly sheared if the flywheel has been put on incorrectly at some stage. They cost 1.50 nzd. For piece of mind its a sensible spare to have. Its the sort of small part that can stop an engine rebuild just before you want to start it up, if you find you dont have one. *edit* How do you reckon you can save a lot of money man?

The clutch nut tool costs 11.50 nzd, and your right, not all px's have them, some use the plain 12mm nut. But again, if you dont have one and you come across this, it stops your build/breakdown.

Its up to you how you like to rebuild your engine, i find planning the build and buying the most basic parts before hand makes it easy to rebuild, if theres absolutely nothing wrong with all the major parts you can have the thing together by the end of the day. Also if you find someone who wants to help you do the build and you rock up with half the bits, it means your carting your engine around in bags and boxes, you can loose more parts before you start.

Some people like to piecemeal their build but i find it makes it drag unnessecarily. You dont have to keep your spare tools either, they'll sell on ebay fairly smartly so you wont lose money on them. Also if your new to rebuilds, having everything there to compare, that youve got the right gaskets etc as you go, isnt a bad thing. But its up to you how you like to build your bike.

Repairable is subjective depending on what your engineering skill is man. A good question for the forum could be, what (specifically) about my engine can be repaired and how or what do i replace it with?... based on what you describe or pictures you post.
The engine is the whole equipment. A part, area, or symptom of concern is specific for that you may hope to diagnose and then repair.

Cases, carb, cylinder, piston, crank, clutch, gears, threads, may suffer damage but all can be repaired...or replaced. Foreign object damage is what usually causes immediate damage, otherwise its wear thats been left to go on for far too long. Poor rebuilding with incorrect tools or inferior parts is another that may lead to destroyed cases or components. As a whole the vespa engine is fairly bullet proof.

What is it on your engine you think needs repairing mate?

Should I say: "If you are not in a hurry, I recommend to open the engine at first."?

If you don't buy beforehand:


clutch holder
crank removal tool (homemade will do)
clutch compressor (homemade will do)
new woodruff key for flywheel (buy 2)
plastic carb petrol filter thing
kick start rubber buffers
at least, rear brake pads [There should be brake shoes actually]
30 weight oil for gear box [Depends on year model]
2T for oil tank
a little pottle of plain grease
new cruciform- buy quality piaggio, ensure your selector rod has the spacer washer on the end, if not buy one too. [Not all have spacer washer]

Quite a lot of money saved if you decide not to rebuild engine once you have opened it. Ofcourse if you you want to rebuild engine as fast as possible, you could buy some parts beforehand. Still you can't be sure if you have everything you need.

Edit: Once you have seen what you really need, you could calculate if costs of rebuilding is within your limits.

Youre hilarious Its just being efficient and organised Well its obvious from that statement that you cant, but i was. It made my build really easy. Why dont you add to the list instead of nit picking, bass it on YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH PX200 REBUILING PARTANEN. Be aware, not everyone has money as the main limiting factor.

The parts i listed were for someone who wants to take his engine apart, and hopefully finds nothing wrong with the major parts and he can then put it back together, pretty soon after cleaning. It enables the OP to research his specific parts, based on a sensible list of spares because he knows his px model as reference to a list.
Im not telling him what he has to or cannot buy, but im offering advice on both his topic subject and his question.

Why am i discussing this with you? Ive just totally rebuilt from bearings up an awesome px200 engine and im speaking from experience, and this is what i needed. I dont think i wasted any money and i was well prepared.

But now that your on this thread Partenan, its put me off...again

Trojan, I wish you the best of luck with your build , enjoy it its fun.

I thought your list was pretty darn good Trumpy!

It worked for me

Chur

Isn't it better to wait for his answer what's wrong with his engine? Instead giving a huge part and tool list to scare. If he have problems with gears he'll need gasket set, cruciform and rod. Flywheel holder and puller. If he have problems with clutch, no need to rebuild the engine. Other things it is better to check before ordering. I'm asking why you take it personally, if I give another option. It can't be wrong if you open the engine with time and patience.

Couple of sites to begin with:

http://www.vespamaintenance.com/engine/split/index.html

http://www.scooterhelp.com/tips/engine/engine.main.html

I find it more pleasant to read books than computer screen, so I purchased Haynes manual: http://www.haynes.com/products/productID/501 From that book you'll find important tightening torques too.