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@alanmac avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1147
Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
 
Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
Joined: UTC
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Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
UTC quote
Hi all,

I made a mention in the 'today i....' thread, and did some adjusting on the mixing screw to no effect (well, I was getting a richer or leaner mix as per my plug, but it was still struggling at idle and when starting off, but only after I had zipped 50 yards down the road.

I then was going to clean the jets and ensure all was OK, actually, I figured I'd rip the carb out completely and do a full clean again to ensure there was nothing amiss in there, but when I went to take the jets out, lo and behold there is no choke/starter jet in the carb! interesting.

I'm guessing there never has been or it has gone missing somewhere between workshops.

I'm hoping this will have caused the issue I have described? I would not have thought this would be getting used when idling or starting off, but what would the impact be of no jet there?

Weird huh?

For those that missed the earlier comment, the bike runs beautifully when cruising t medium revs etc, and starts OK, but after riding to the end of my street and stopping on take off it seemed to 'bog' or loose all power, then it would suddenly lurch into normal service when I gave it some tweak on the throttle. at times I would be sitting idling at a stop and it would be OK, other times it would just stop and die and need kicking over again at which point I had to keep the revs up a bit to stop it happening again. Once up and away all was good (after the odd lurch as described above).

Any thoughts very welcome. Guess I'm popping in to GPS again tomorrow. I feel like I should be organising regular beer catch ups with those guys these days.

Thanks in advance.

alan
@joshzingzing avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
px200 cutdown,px180,px150. Puch SR. Puch scooterette
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
@joshzingzing avatar
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UTC quote
beer
that'll do it, too easy




have you checked your ears or nostrils, may have been lodged in there Razz emoticon





better go to the doc



OP
@alanmac avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1147
Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
 
Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
UTC quote
I am actually surprised it ran so well with a missing jet! Oh well. Chance to give it a good clean. Did you get any response from shenton park people?
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Hooked
px 200 e
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Hooked
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UTC quote
... Shld be easy fix.... Phew. Im still in the land of lycra josh( city beach), if you want me to check a bike out in shenton park for you.
Be nice to be able to walk into a shop like gps and get the bits you need!
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@alanmac avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1147
Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
 
Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Posts: 1147
Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
UTC quote
Yeah, having GPS not too faraway is a good thing. Nice guys in there too. I could do with a session on Perth beaches. Last time I was in cott the shark sirens rang non stop. Apparently there was a hammerhead and something else cruising up and down. Fuck. That.
@joshzingzing avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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@joshzingzing avatar
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UTC quote
no bud nada ,nyenti , nothing




ill try again tomorrow (when sober) but ive got the feeling it went straight away





i prefer my scoots pre 63 these days so all good
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Hooked
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Nulla problemo josh.

Have to say the fear is here re sharkies,...... But at least when im out havn a body bash its not just the local economy people are talkn about..

Still prob not good practice to be talkin bout sharks when your out the back waiting for a wave to get you into the shallows..

Seems like they might be baitn big hooks here soon

Oh and this is a scoot thread..... Saw my first twisty here, an oldet white and blue px..... The smell was comforting
@joshzingzing avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
px200 cutdown,px180,px150. Puch SR. Puch scooterette
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
Razz emoticon
⚠️ Last edited by joshzingzing on UTC; edited 1 time
⬆️    About 2 months elapsed    ⬇️
OP
@alanmac avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
Joined: UTC
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Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
 
Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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UTC quote
OK, I'm going to re-drag this sucker of a post back up as I have got back to Australia and am about to re try some new stuff to avoid the stalling at idle.

I have trawled the forum looking for a similar problem, found a couple of threads that sounded similar only for the issue to not have a "fixed" entry to say what the cause actually was, which is bloody frustrating.

As it stands I have all the jets OK, have cleaned the carb out and replaced the float and needle. It SHOULD be Ok. I did note that the slide is pretty scrapped up though I haven't noticed any sticking in the throttle at all, but I guess could be due to a very slight warp? Before the float and needle were replaced I did have a flooding issue, not so now, just the stalling issues.

At the last moment before I left Oz the throttle cable snapped at the carb end (it was pretty shitty so that was not entirely unexpected, especially with all the extra stress on it from the carb being connected and disconnected so often). So the new cable is in (now THAT is a fiddly job on the Rally) but I have not put the carb back on yet (I had to remove it to find the nipple and shreds of cable in the carb box and hope I didn't let the bits fall into the casing - all good) and I am going to re-clean that sucker once more and make sure it shines like it walked out of Vader's workshop.

The last time I had the bike out I still had the same issues. starts fine. takes off ...ok, a bit rough really, runs at medium to high revs perfectly, but does then stall at idle or struggles to pick up as I go round a corner. Whilst out I stopped the bike and had 5 minute break and went to start off again and it would not kick over for the life of it. I roll started it (down a hill fortunately for this old body) and once it turned over it was again OK at medium to high revs, but a bastard at idling type revs.

Other threads I read have suggested;

- The mixture screw, this was at default settings but I will play with this again when I put the carb back on

- The CDI unit if this is on the way out and gets a shitty spark once warmed up at low revs (does that make sense?)

- whether there is a shitty block in the carb internals. Fuck knows.

So, my plan as it stands.

I'll clean this sucker and see if that helps.

If not, I'll play with the mixture screw somewhat and see how that flies.

If not, I have a spare CDI I can try, although I am skeptical as it rides so nicely at higher revs.

When the extra body and slides turn up I'll have more variables I can add to the mix just to totally mess my mind up.

If all that fails, I'll invest in a new carb, but that would feel like throwing the towel in and I'm too far down the track to not get this to work.

have I missed something obvious? I keep feeling I have but i cannot work out what it is!

Thanks a lot

alan
@trumpyscooter avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Black 2007 PX200, Dark green 1986 PX225 Pinasco, "1972"(yeah rite) Tangerine px200, several TRIUMPH TIGRESS SCOOTERS
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Molto Verboso
@trumpyscooter avatar
Black 2007 PX200, Dark green 1986 PX225 Pinasco, "1972"(yeah rite) Tangerine px200, several TRIUMPH TIGRESS SCOOTERS
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UTC quote
Just chucking it out there in case...
Make sure the choke cable returns completely and isnt running partialy out, as that would effect idle running. disconnect choke cable to be sure.

Youve made sure the starter jet is actually screwed in (different to the idle jet)
Quote:
whether there is a shitty block in the carb internals. Fuck knows.
... I think this one was referring to blowing the carb out with compressed air, either from compressor or plain ol canned air to clear obstruction

Im sure youve tried these but im just putting it out there
OP
@alanmac avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1147
Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
 
Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
UTC quote
I think the Choke is OK and returning fine, but I'll disconnect, just in case!

Yup. starter, idle and main all there and OK. Idle and Starter are standard for the p200e. a larger main due to the pinasco 213 kit and sito plus pipe. Currently have a 128 in there.

yes, tried all the cleaning bits and bobs, but I'll try once more!

Cheers
@trumpyscooter avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Black 2007 PX200, Dark green 1986 PX225 Pinasco, "1972"(yeah rite) Tangerine px200, several TRIUMPH TIGRESS SCOOTERS
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Molto Verboso
@trumpyscooter avatar
Black 2007 PX200, Dark green 1986 PX225 Pinasco, "1972"(yeah rite) Tangerine px200, several TRIUMPH TIGRESS SCOOTERS
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UTC quote
Bit of a cop out and i really dislike this suggestion as its almost always totally irrelevant, but to totally eradicate carb altogether, can you get a mates scoot and swap it out, putting your main jet in?

Then ride, then swap out cdi? to eradicate cdi. That way you can just sort the stator or scratch your head about your pinasco...

*edit* you may need a size larger on the idle for the pinasco???

*double edit* what about float needle and float? good rubber seating and float servicable?


*hat trick*Do try blowing the idle jet only then going for a ride as there maybe something blocking idle circuit. See if you can get it to run in the idle region of the throttle and see if it 'stalls' again

Try the simplist of variables first to isolate a definite area.

Get brave/stupid/desperate and go for a sprint without the air filter, trying to get a feel for good running in the idle below 1/2 throttle range

Glad its not happening to me because it sounds bloody irritating
OP
@alanmac avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
UTC quote
TrumpyScooter wrote:
Bit of a cop out and i really dislike this suggestion as its almost always totally irrelevant, but to totally eradicate carb altogether, can you get a mates scoot and swap it out, putting your main jet in?

Then ride, then swap out cdi? to eradicate cdi. That way you can just sort the stator or scratch your head about your pinasco...

*edit* you may need a size larger on the idle for the pinasco???

*double edit* what about float needle and float? good rubber seating and float servicable?


*hat trick*Do try blowing the idle jet only then going for a ride as there maybe something blocking idle circuit. See if you can get it to run in the idle region of the throttle and see if it 'stalls' again

Try the simplist of variables first to isolate a definite area.

Get brave/stupid/desperate and go for a sprint without the air filter, trying to get a feel for good running in the idle below 1/2 throttle range

Glad its not happening to me because it sounds bloody irritating
Hey Trumpy, yeah, irritating is a pretty good descriptor.

The Float and needle were replaced to stop a flooding issue I was getting and seem fine now.

I guess I may need a larger idle jet, although I would not have thought so. It actually feels like there is a blockage at low revs so perhaps you may have a point. One of those things that you keep buying jets and stuff just in case. I have two new slides on their way with the new (s/h) carb body so that is like a fresh test. The body should be here soon and it'll be straight on the scoot should it still be causing me grief.

I'll definitely spend some time swapping the CDI out and a few other things. I've got the carb pulled again and i'll be doing the ultrasonic cleaning deal for a bit in case there is something in the idle circuit within the carb itself. The jet is pretty much shiny like a new one, as are all the jets.

I'll just jot down a long list of variables and start ticking them off until something seems better! I was going to do a ride with the fuel cap open just in case there is an issue with a blockage there, but I would have expected that to have caused issues for more than just the idle, but maybe not.

Then I have a new fuel tap and hose to try. But I'll leave that til last before I rip out the tank. It's not my favourite job having to get those buggers back in!

Thanks for the tips chap
@trumpyscooter avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Black 2007 PX200, Dark green 1986 PX225 Pinasco, "1972"(yeah rite) Tangerine px200, several TRIUMPH TIGRESS SCOOTERS
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Id stick with the idle circuit for a bit longer.


Being able to isolate the fault by deliberately bringing about the the symptom through elimination of servicable areas is partway to solving it. IE tackle one definite area and one thing at a time.
(Which you have been doing, but i urge you to keep that discipline)

Lets take a stab, and say for now, the electrics are fine, WOT main jet is fine, carb fuel filter is clean and remains so, ie tank/tap is sweet. needle jet is good and float is sound. Your idle jet is clear and remains so...

that leaves the idle carb passages or...very far fetched; incorrect throttle slide

Choke slide maybe open....what else....


You could also do the unthinkable and poke a wire through the idle circuit on the carb body to clear debris, rinse then blow dry....go again, riding only in the idle range

Before swapping out your body but after reaming its holes, ride only in the idle range and cut the engine the 2nd it stalls.
After stall, but before kicking it check the plug to see if its really wet. Then get that cdi replacement on there and retest. That way youve isolated your own carb and start on the easy electrics, with that carb.

Ok thats about all i can offer. Someone else may have a stronger angle on this. Maybe PM one of the gurus to chime in.

Just ideas and a 'keep at it' for you. Good luck Alan, let us know how it all goes.
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@alanmac avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Posts: 1147
Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
 
Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Posts: 1147
Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
UTC quote
Thanks Trumpy. Appreciate your thoughts. It's frustrating. I'll definitely be hollering about the solution when I find it as I don't want someone to keep finding threads on this forum only to discover there is no solution provided for the problem described, as I just found a few times.

Again, thanks for the sounding board and thoughts.

Cheers

alan
UTC

Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
What they said.

With a timing light, a timing mark or flywheel fins should freeze with steady rpm to show solid sparking.

Is the idle jet a 55/160?

If you suspect a stopped up idle jet, unscrewing the jet slightly will unseat it and allow fuel to flow past the seat and it will go from fuel starvation to slightly or very rich when coming off-idle. It's like enlarging the jet hole.

To verify unclogged idle passages, remove the idle jet and place a spray carb cleaner nozzle straw into the idle jet hole, seal it off with a finger/piece of rag, etc. and see if cleaner sprays out of the idle mixture hole inside the venturi.

It will also squirt out of the main jet air corrector if you don't plug it. It will also come out the main fuel nozzle in the venturi.

Totally unscrewing the idle mixture screw will allow crud to blow out that hole. Usual hazardous material precautions.

I keep a drinking straw in my tool pouch. Sometimes, just placing it over the idle jet and blowing will unclog it. Although poo-pood by purists, I also have a small brass wire with tape around one end to stick through the jet hole. So far, I have been unable to ruin the jet with it.

I've only made one or two riding seasons without a clogged idle jet.
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@alanmac avatar
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Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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UTC quote
Thanks BB. I'll be straight on to that sensible concept of checking the clogging of the idle passage. Not sure why I didn't think about that the first time. Some good tips all round and I'll be making the most of them tomorrow. Hopefully it'll be a happy story tomorrow evening!

Cheers mate

btw, where abouts in NC are you?
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@alanmac avatar
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Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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UTC quote
HI all,

In the midst of trying the options available at this stage.

New cable done, tried a new idle jet but given I had already tried two other idle jets I doubted I'd get far. BB, I had sprayed the carb cleaner as suggested and could see some coming out the idle and main.

I have the either carb body here, so I'll try that, and then try the new CDI.

hopefully one of these will be it.
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Addicted
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UTC quote
I had a problem with mine where it would hesitate or bog a little when rolling on the throttle after shifting from 2nd to 3rd, or 3rd to 4th. I put a richer idle jet in and made it slightly less symptomatic. After putting in a different atomizer, the problem went away completely.
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@alanmac avatar
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Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
 
Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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UTC quote
Thanks. Happy with all suggestions at this stage. New idle did nothing. Removing air filter did nothing. Just went to try the new carb body but the slide won't slide in, which is odd! Need to understand why later. Going with new CDI soon, just waiting for some rusted bolts to settle.

What was the switch in atomisers you did?Just curious how that helped!
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UTC quote
AlanMac wrote:
Thanks. Happy with all suggestions at this stage. New idle did nothing. Removing air filter did nothing. Just went to try the new carb body but the slide won't slide in, which is odd! Need to understand why later. Going with new CDI soon, just waiting for some rusted bolts to settle.

What was the switch in atomisers you did?Just curious how that helped!
I switched to a BE4 mixer as my engine seemed to run lean even after going with up to a 24 size main. The old mixer could have very well been clogged, but the scoot runs much better now.

after reading this link, http://www.myronsmopeds.com/category/service/carburetor-service/ I gathered that the atomizer I was using was letting in less mixture. The mix it self may have had good fuel to air, but there just wasn't enough of it. I could be way off, but it worked for me.
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@alanmac avatar
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Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
OK, new CDI installed and same issues, stalling when in gear and starting off.

I can sit there without the bike in gear and the revs and idle are fine.

I can sit on the bike and do the same the same thing and all seems fine.

I put the bike in to gear and go to move off and then the problems start.

Not sure why the second hand carb body I got won't take the slide in my current carb. seems to jet jammed a bit of the way in. Could any of this be a symptom of a slightly warped carb currently installed? I'm surprised that the other body has the slide being stuck going in. both SI 24/24e carbs.

I tried running without an air filter, no good.

Getting to be at a loss right now.
@mr10 avatar
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Hooked
150 GLx, Rally 200
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Hooked
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UTC quote
My Rally was fitted with an old style 24.24 (with the solid idle jet) - my idling problems vanished by upgrading to a more modern 24.24 with the hole in the jet.

Also - a fucked up air mixture screw (thread/broken point) could cause problems.
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Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
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UTC quote
Thanks 10, though the idle jet is the newer sort, and I replaced the mixer tube as well during my trial and error (BE3).

The air mixture screw seems fine and is out at default settings for now.
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@alanmac avatar
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Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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UTC quote
I finally picked up a multi meter ( why didn't I do this a long while ago??? ) as the green white combo gave me a 0 reading and the red white a 114 reading. White to casing zero as well. Just checking! So I am now away from the carb and delving in to the electrical stuff. Shudder. Will have the flywheel off soon enough after child school pick ups. Thanks to Ginch for suggesting this route.
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@alanmac avatar
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Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
 
Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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UTC quote
Btw, I am surprised I could start the bike at all like that???
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Molto Verboso
Black 2007 PX200, Dark green 1986 PX225 Pinasco, "1972"(yeah rite) Tangerine px200, several TRIUMPH TIGRESS SCOOTERS
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Stator can give fuel like symptoms aye
AlanMac wrote:
I finally picked up a multi meter ( why didn't I do this a long while ago??? )
Thing is, you gotta eliminate the carb first BECAUSE stator can give fuel type symptoms and its so easy to blow out jets and too typical of a scooter to get something clogged and keep clogging it.

Nothing wrong with spending a couple of hours on a carb and fanging it up the street in search of the electrics as the next go to, electrics are easy 150 expensive, jets are 7 bucks each.

Take the stator off after marking your timing and check for fraying on the wires. Whats in a stator fix?....rewire / recoil or buy a new one.
@ginch avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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UTC quote
Yours is a Femsatronic Alan?
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@alanmac avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Posts: 1147
Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
 
Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
UTC quote
Not so far as I'm aware mate. I have a P200E engine.
@ginch avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8695
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Posts: 8695
Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
I just noticed it wasn't aluminium coloured and didn't think any more about it. You have the Ducati coil, what was I thinking?

I've attached a word doc that may be of help when testing with the multimeter, just some posts from here and there I've collected.
OP
@alanmac avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1147
Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
 
Molto Verboso
@alanmac avatar
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Posts: 1147
Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
UTC quote
Ginch wrote:
I just noticed it wasn't aluminum coloured and didn't think any more about it. You have the Ducati coil, what was I thinking?

I've attached a word doc that may be of help when testing with the multimeter, just some posts from here and there I've collected.
Brilliant, Thanks Michael. I'll give that a squizz right now! Thanks
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