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Silver Streak wrote:
I'm an engineer, and I tend to believe only independently conducted, well-controlled tests -- not butt dynos or manufacturers' hype.
I almost fell for it. Laughing emoticon
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Joke and scoff all you want, folks. Experience has always been my best teacher.

If I understand correctly, this forum is for sharing information of things that work well for scooters. That's why I'm here.

I'd be interested in hearing from others who may try what I suggest.
⚠️ Last edited by fullthrottle on UTC; edited 1 time
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Can a better spark act like a hotter plug or running lean?
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UTC quote
breaknwind wrote:
Can a better spark act like a hotter plug or running lean?
Possibly. My understanding is that the more complete combustion that can happen with every stroke, the more power you'll generate. The unique design of the Denso affords that. http://www.densoiridium.com/spconstruction.php

I should say that I always use the highest quality 2T oil, 93 octane fuel, and the two fuel additives I mentioned in another post, where the naysayers had a field day.

I'm not into expensive engine and exhaust mods to make my scooters go faster when I have a motorcycle that can go 130 mph. But, if a $7.50 item can tweak a little more power and fuel economy from a 150cc engine, I'm in.
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When my piston rings went bad in my Honda, the crankcase breather was blowing oil back into the air filter housing. The scoot never ran better(Faster). I thought it was the new MB rated oil I was using. Compression was at 50% and the spark plug was white. Turns out the O2 sensor was telling my ECU to run lean.
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breaknwind wrote:
When my piston rings went bad in my Honda, the crankcase breather was blowing oil back into the air filter housing. The scoot never ran better(Faster). I thought it was the new MB rated oil I was using. Compression was at 50% and the spark plug was white. Turns out the O2 sensor was telling my ECU to run lean.
I can assure you that nothing like that is happening with my simple 2-stroke Vespa.
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UTC quote
Fullthrottle,

I think the problem here is that when something appears too good to be true, it normally is. Now, when you talk about engine performance, the claims you are making are very easily verified with equipment such as a dyno.

Now, if such great performance outcomes are achievable through the use of these plugs, and only cost a few bucks per cylinder, don't you think that vehicle manufacturers would be using them in their vehicles and claiming the performance/economy advantage? Don't you think the plug manufacturer would be prominently advertising the advantages - backed, up of course, with verifiable data? If these things are not happening, smart people will ask 'why not'. The simple explanation is that the claims may not be not true.

Not saying you are not experiencing what you are saying (and remember 'experience' does not necessarily equate to reality), however there are too many variables in the equation to say that X=Y, i.e. iridium plug=better performance.
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Believe it or not, auto manufacturers do not always use the highest quality parts. They try to shave every dollar out of their costs. That's why there's such a huge aftermarket for performance parts.

I've never seen big advertising campaigns for spark plugs, iridium or otherwise. Yet, it's common knowledge that iridiums are better if only for their durability.

I don't know what else to say about Densos except try them yourself.
⚠️ Last edited by fullthrottle on UTC; edited 1 time
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fullthrottle wrote:
breaknwind wrote:
When my piston rings went bad in my Honda, the crankcase breather was blowing oil back into the air filter housing. The scoot never ran better(Faster). I thought it was the new MB rated oil I was using. Compression was at 50% and the spark plug was white. Turns out the O2 sensor was telling my ECU to run lean.
I can assure you that nothing like that is happening with my simple 2-stroke Vespa.
But the 2Ts run uber fast lean...right before seizing!

I know my butt dyno is biased...heck..the right music makes my scooter 10mph faster!
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I always thought more torque = more horsepower.
http://www.densoiridium.com/dynochart.php?id=1
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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I'll let you know first if my scooter seizes from a new spark plug. Crying or Very sad emoticon
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fullthrottle wrote:
I'll let you know first if my scooter seizes from a new spark plug. Crying or Very sad emoticon
Oh that's OK...I know what it's like!
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fullthrottle wrote:
Believe it or not, auto manufacturers do not always use the highest quality parts. They try to shave every dollar out of their costs. That's why there's such a huge aftermarket for performance parts.

...
This is a true statement. When you sell a million vehicles and you can save $10 per vehicle and still sell it at the same price, you just put $10,000,000 in your pocket. Makes financial sense.

I'm of the same opinion as Silver Streak... I want carefully gathered independent data to show me the real benefit (other than longer life... I believe that already).

-Craig
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caschnd1 wrote:
I'm of the same opinion as Silver Streak... I want carefully gathered independent data to show me the real benefit (other than longer life... I believe that already).

-Craig
Yeah but the OP is referring to 2T motors. "Longer life" is a different thing for 2T and 4T motors. That plug is going to need to...at a minimum... be cleaned. Lets not even get into decoking etc...For me if I ride 2T at elevation I don't bother to rejet...I just let it run a little rich and if the plug fouls I stick a spare in..better to run fat than lean.

For me the heat range and timing are way more important in preventing a holed 2T piston
⚠️ Last edited by ScooterRaton on UTC; edited 1 time
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I thought that member "rrounds" video was the most compelling argument in favor of iridium plugs.
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Product cost....
Yeah if the mfg's installed silicone hoses, they would never sell any rubber ones in five years...


So if a iridium is twice the cost, look at the savings

The rubber hoses are the cheapest crap I have seen, Made In India

Look a the savings, I can sell the silicone assys with clamps for what Vespa gets for the crap rubber without clamps.

GB
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fullthrottle wrote:
I thought that member "rrounds" video was the most compelling argument in favor of iridium plugs.
Any data and anecdotes have been for 4T motors...not 2T.
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I will inspect the plug after 500 miles and see what condition the Denso is in and if it needs to be cleaned. The Champion plugs never got very fouled in that particular 2T scooter.
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I would suggest running proper plug chops.
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ScooterRaton wrote:
I would suggest running proper plug chops.
Thanks. I just might do that. The PX150 plug was always fine before, but the Stella runs very rich and the plug gets fouled a lot.

The guy I bought it from had up-jetted the carb. I never tried a different or hotter plug before in the Stella.
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znomit wrote:
I always thought more torque = more horsepower.
http://www.densoiridium.com/dynochart.php?id=1

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
You left this part out:
Quote:
*Actual horsepower gains may vary.
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fullthrottle wrote:
I thought that member "rrounds" video was the most compelling argument in favor of iridium plugs.
My 9th grade General Science teacher would question whether or not this was a controlled experiment. Won't bore you with what is missing to meet that requirement.
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Fine. While we wait for the controlled scientific experiment that may never come, I'll be happily riding my scooters, motorcycles, cars and truck with Denso Iridium Power spark plugs.

And, I'll be closely monitoring my fuel consumption as I always do. My real world experience with each particular motor is all that matters to me.
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fullthrottle wrote:
Fine. While we wait for the controlled scientific experiment that may never come, I'll be happily riding my scooters, motorcycles, cars and truck with Denso Iridium Power spark plugs.

And, I'll be closely monitoring my fuel consumption as I always do. My real world experience with each particular motor is all that matters to me.
I don't think anyone said you shouldn't. There is hardly any question that iridium plugs last longer, and the manufacturers clearly make that claim without any disclaimers. Enjoy the ride.
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With tougher SMOG laws and higher mandated fuel mileage requirements, I haven't bought a new car in the last 14 years that did not come with Platinum or Iridium plugs. Ford and Chevy only did that because they help with both with the least amount of money spent by them. I find it funny that in aviation and professional auto racing they used Iridium plugs more than a decade before they became available to the public here in the states. Most if not all would have balked at the price when my dad was spending more than $100 a plug.
Think what you want but professional race teams and the FAA have already done the testing for us.

ROD
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The FAA has simply approved fine wire plugs for use, and have not endorsed any "performance" claims. Inspection intervals remain the same.
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I always considered riding a scooter as flying at low altitude. Popcorn emoticon
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fullthrottle wrote:
ScooterRaton wrote:
I would suggest running proper plug chops.
Thanks. I just might do that. The PX150 plug was always fine before, but the Stella runs very rich and the plug gets fouled a lot.

The guy I bought it from had up-jetted the carb. I never tried a different or hotter plug before in the Stella.
A fouling plug is a sign of running too rich, using a different plug is not going to change the air/fuel mix. My suggestion would be to get the carb jetting set up correctly before trying different plugs.

Using a "hotter" or "colder" plug in a 2T really depends on the type of riding..around town, long distance touring etc.

A CHT and an EGT can be very useful for keeping an eye on what is actually happening. The gauges and probes that I use are actually made for light aircraft!
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Thanks for the tip. I'm not going to mess around too much with the Stella. I'm going to sell it as it is, and include the original jets for the next person to have fun.
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fullthrottle wrote:
I disagree. The proof is in the riding experience.
Proof is in your head, plugs did nothing. Get a dyno before and after is the ONLY way to tell if you have as little a power increase you would ever be able to get from a plug.
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rrounds wrote:
With tougher SMOG laws and higher mandated fuel mileage requirements, I haven't bought a new car in the last 14 years that did not come with Platinum or Iridium plugs. Ford and Chevy only did that because they help with both with the least amount of money spent by them. I find it funny that in aviation and professional auto racing they used Iridium plugs more than a decade before they became available to the public here in the states. Most if not all would have balked at the price when my dad was spending more than $100 a plug.
Think what you want but professional race teams and the FAA have already done the testing for us.

ROD
Iridium's are used for longevity, no other reason.

Show me FAA claims of power increase.
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WEB-Tech wrote:
rrounds wrote:
With tougher SMOG laws and higher mandated fuel mileage requirements, I haven't bought a new car in the last 14 years that did not come with Platinum or Iridium plugs. Ford and Chevy only did that because they help with both with the least amount of money spent by them. I find it funny that in aviation and professional auto racing they used Iridium plugs more than a decade before they became available to the public here in the states. Most if not all would have balked at the price when my dad was spending more than $100 a plug.
Think what you want but professional race teams and the FAA have already done the testing for us.

ROD
Iridium's are used for longevity, no other reason.

Show me FAA claims of power increase.
To be honest, I have never seen(or looked) for the FAA to say this part or that part will get you more power. But what the FAA does do is make sure the parts you put in your plane does not degrade the performance or ability to do the job for which it was designed for.

Now race engine's only has to last for around 700 miles or less, some races are only 1320' So they don't care if the plug last 10k or 100k miles. But here too they use Iridium plugs not for longevity but for the better performance that they afford them. If they didn't improve performance they would't use them.

I couldn't afford Iridium plugs when I started racing back in the late 70's so I did the best I could with little tricks to get a better spark. One was to side gap the plugs(don't do this for the street because they don't last long) and two, run 16 to 17 volts to the coil(don't do this either, coils burn up real quick).

So the FAA proves that Iridium plugs last longer and don't degrade performance and race teams prove that they increase performance.

Now if you don't believe that a smaller center electrode that the Iridium plugs have gives a better, hotter more intense spark than a standard plug does with the same volts , well as my Dad used to say, son you better go back to school.

ROD
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Winter threads, or how P I E came to be.
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rrounds wrote:
This shop puts nothing in the bikes they work on but NGK Iridium plugs. They have yet to lose any power but they do gain HP after a simple plug change no matter how new the plugs were.
Well, they are selling iridium plugs and therefore have a financial interest in the outcome, so how is this not potentially biased?

It's also ONE dyno run. The difference between a cold engine and one that is warmed up can make that kind of difference.

Show me a REAL, scientifically controlled, independent test with multiple runs by someone in the business of such testing. As someone who ran a lab for 15 years, I find this to be little more than anecdotal.
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What is the best oil to use with NGK Iridium plugs?
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stickyfrog wrote:
What is the best oil to use with NGK Iridium plugs?
Only the current brand endorsed by Piaggio in the owner's manual! Laughing emoticon Clown emoticon
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Well said, ROD "rrounds". Clap emoticon

After this posting experience, and the posting I did before about fuel injector cleaners and stabilizers that received all kinds of negative comments, should I even bring up the new Shorai Lithium-Iron-Phosphate battery I got for my Granturismo?

Oops. I guess I just did! Some day I'll put up a posting all about it. Can't wait for the reaction to that one. Facepalm emoticon

I just like to use the best parts and fluids where I can. Apart from changing the drive belt and rollers at 10k miles on the Granturismo, all of my scooters have needed only minimum regular maintenance.

Could I be doing something right?

For those who care to know, I replaced the original belt which had shredded up with a Malossi Kevlar belt. And, instead of stock rollers, I put in Dr. Pulley 10 gram sliders.

Would anyone believe the power gain and better top speed I got from those mods?? No, I guess it's all in my head. Goofy emoticon
⚠️ Last edited by fullthrottle on UTC; edited 2 times
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stickyfrog wrote:
What is the best oil to use with NGK Iridium plugs?
Snake?
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znomit wrote:
stickyfrog wrote:
What is the best oil to use with NGK Iridium plugs?
Snake?
Har har.

If stickyfrog was being serious, I can report that Motul makes good synthetic lubricants. That's what I use, mostly.

I also got a great deal on a whole case of genuine Vespa synthetic 2T oil, that was on clearance at Scooterwest.com.
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