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UTC quote
Oldscoot wrote:
There are two important predicate questions:

1. Did you ever fly with very young children of your own? and

2. Where they silent the entire trip?

If the answer to question #1 is "no" (and therefore also "no" for #2) you don't understand flying with very young children.

If the answer to question #1 is "yes" and the answer to question #2 is "no" (and you are honest) you are very, very fortunate indeed.

If the answer is "yes" for #1 and "no" for #2 then join the rest of us who have flown with very young children.

The fact is that cabin pressure fluctuates and the little ones' ears are quite sensitive to pressure differences; the noise which is bothersome to us is also tough on very young ears; and finally, flying generally sucks whether your in first class or not.

For the largest portion of my career I did a great deal of flying. Although I was headquartered in Texas my major client organizations were on the East and West Coast. I was Platinum, Gold or whatever in every major miles program and flew First Class most of the time. If a baby was crying and the mother looked anxious I would smile and remind her in a loud enough voice that everyone of our kids had done the same thing - that is what they do.

Take a nice long ride on that great bike of yours and the memories of this
trauma will dissipate.

+1
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UTC quote
SDG wrote:
All this because of a free upgrade?
Yeah, the babies were crying because they could sense one of the lower classes was nearby. This commingling is bothersome and shouldn't be allowed.

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Re: Before this thread dies...
Quasi-moto wrote:
and while we are still talking about elitism and air travel, if they add one more privileged class of people who "get" to board the plane first, I will die of laughter. I totally get allowing the elderly and people with infants to care for. I even get seating first class and frequent fliers earlier. But 5 different kinds of credit card holders? This past week when I flew home from Seattle, Alaska even announced customers wearing a certain player's replica jersey had priority. Also, if you paid extra to check a bag, no priority, but if you held on to your bag until you got to the gate and they gave you free bag checking, you got priority boarding.

I love Southwest Airlines...no protected classes, just plain transportation.
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UTC quote
Only our good old friend MV could save the best for last this year. Only 28 hours and 50 minutes left PST until 2014 however we got a hot one right here!

Razz emoticon

SDG
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UTC quote
Re: Before this thread dies...
Quasi-moto wrote:
....

I love Southwest Airlines...no protected classes, just plain transportation.
Agree, the number of "preferred" boarding groups today is laughable. Southwest Airlines is not exempt. Boarding positions A1-A30 are reserved for people who pay an extra $20 per flight leg for one of those low numbers. Laughing emoticon

-Craig
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Re: Before this thread dies...
caschnd1 wrote:
Quasi-moto wrote:
....

I love Southwest Airlines...no protected classes, just plain transportation.
Agree, the number of "preferred" boarding groups today is laughable. Southwest Airlines is not exempt. Boarding positions A1-A30 are reserved for people who pay an extra $20 per flight leg for one of those low numbers. Laughing emoticon

-Craig
Totally true, but as often as not there are very few paying the $20, unless the flight is full. And $20 does not an elitist make.
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Was it these two clowns?

SDG
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Re: Before this thread dies...
caschnd1 wrote:
Quasi-moto wrote:
....

I love Southwest Airlines...no protected classes, just plain transportation.
Agree, the number of "preferred" boarding groups today is laughable. Southwest Airlines is not exempt. Boarding positions A1-A30 are reserved for people who pay an extra $20 per flight leg for one of those low numbers. Laughing emoticon

-Craig
Ahem, for the record, it's $12.50...and that only gets you A16-30. If you want A1-15, that's something like $40 per ticket - too rich for this kid. Nerd emoticon
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UTC quote
Well $12.50 is even better. Been a while since I flew SW and my memory obviously isn't so good. Laughing emoticon
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UTC quote
I have delayed responding to this thread due to my interest in the subject matter...

In the early days of business class, I understand that, at least on some airlines, children were not allowed. I think the reasons for this were quite obvious. The passenger is paying a large premium for flying business class, and an extreme premium for flying first class. When you are paying these prices, you are not simply paying for transport from a to b, you are paying for the experience of an airborne restaurant/hotel, or at least that is how it is marketed. On international flights, business travellers use the opportunity to either work or rest. This allows business people to hop straight off a flight and proceed directly to a meeting etc. Like I said, this is how these flights are marketed by airlines and how they are used by business travellers.

I have been in the same situation as the OP, in business class international travel with a screaming kid in front, and another behind and I totally understand the frustration with the situation, particularly when you have paid the premium out of your own pocket. Unfortunately, there is little you can do about it, and I don't think a refund is warranted or appropriate.

Unfortunately, airlines now want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to market the 'premium experience', but they don't want to exclude infants and children from business and first class either. What does that mean? You buy your ticket and take your chance. Earplugs and noise cancelling headsets help, and so do understanding and helpful crew.
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UTC quote
Re: NSR - Am I Being Unreasonable?
Edumakated wrote:
So the wife and I just got back from a glorious 10 day vacation in Carmel Valley, CA. To say I am jealous of you California riders would be an understatement. I'd be riding Highway 1 everyday out to Big Sur if I could.

Nevertheless, I wanted to find out if I am just being grumpy. This vacation was our baby moon and we had some credits from previous cancelled flights, so we bought first class airline tickets.

On our return flight, we get into the first class cabin and there are THREE infants in the cabin. WTF? Of course, all three cried the entire four hour flight and we had to listen to the parents goo goo gah gah to their little snowflake as well.

Not to begrudge parents traveling with children, but my opinion is that infants/small toddlers should not be allowed in first class because it is disrespectful to the other passengers who are paying a significant premium for a first class experience. If I wanted to risk having a crying baby near me, I would have bought coach tickets. I feel like the airline owes us a refund.

Is it being unreasonable to think that airlines would not allow infants in first class?
I think your being annoyed and displeased is reasonable but don't expect it to matter to an airline or whatever when it comes to paying passengers. If YOU don't like it fly another airline or don't fly at all. You have choices and now that you know the deal can avoid another encounter with horrible children.

I don't not like children, myself. But for me they are like dogs. If well behaved and quiet I love 'em and might even like playing with one now and again for my own amusement. But once a kid or pet becomes a hassle to me i would just as well let someone else deal with it.

However i cannot expect the world (or airlines) to fall at my feet so if i want to leave my house everyday and go out into the world some things i just ignore and / or accept. That children can be loud and parents not care when i am out and about is one of them. Annoying? Yes. But it's better then staying home simply to not be annoyed.

On the same token not being a family man myself i have run into families at ballgames, on sidewalks, in restaurants and even concerts over the years when my language is salty and loud and i have been admonished by a few parents. Maybe even several, iirc? In which case i let them know its too bad, those aren't my kids, and if they don't like it get a sitter or don't leave the house. But so long as i am not being offensive, belligerent, or imposing i behave as i please. Those around me can do as they please, also. Including moving away from me or bringing up their own kids and leaving me and others alone about it.

Now if i am "reminded" by some close to me or asked politely i will always apologize and try to be more mindful. But when families with children out and about in public start acting like everyone around them needs to mind their p's and q's because they have children with them? That does not sit well with me unless at a distinctly family oriented event or business that caters to children and mom and dad. In which case i am always appropriate for the time and place.

Take it with a grain of salt, i say. And know the value of a good set of ear plugs. Take care of you and yours like that and you won't mind others so much
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UTC quote
The trick is to get some more money together and fly on one of those corporate jet type of deals like professional elitists do these days. Have you noticed how you never see rock stars or movie stars or sports stars on airliners like you used to? No contemporary elitist worth his Himalayan lavender salt would be caught dead in mere "first class".

And have you ever watched a gate as the passengers deplane? The first people out are a bunch of grim-faced, uptight and pissed-off people in dark clothes (the first class people) followed by a much more colorful, relieved and happy-to-be-there group (the proles from the back.) It's really easy to tell the difference.
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UTC quote
Re: Before this thread dies...
caschnd1 wrote:
Quasi-moto wrote:
....

I love Southwest Airlines...no protected classes, just plain transportation.
Agree, the number of "preferred" boarding groups today is laughable. Southwest Airlines is not exempt. Boarding positions A1-A30 are reserved for people who pay an extra $20 per flight leg for one of those low numbers. Laughing emoticon

-Craig
I'm usually sitting on the Boarding Group W Bench.
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UTC quote
So... You "paid", (with frequent flyer points) for first class... And you think your special....

Check out this video on YouTube:

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UTC quote
Edumakated wrote:
Thanks for the replies, even if we disagree. I figured it would be split down the middle.

I used to put 100k miles annually on various airlines in a previous life, so not a stranger to air travel by any means.

My issue is expectations. When I fly coach (which I do most often these days), I expect crying babies, etc. It doesn't bother me. You have a discount fair, so you expect a discount experience. I just grin and bear it. Crying babies really don't bother me in that context.

However, when I am paying a premium or upgraded to sit in first class, the expectations are different. You don't expect to have to put up with a crying infants.

We all know infants cry and the ear popping can be a source of pain for them. However, that is precisely why they shouldn't be in first class imho. The parents can't control when and if they will cry and it isn't fair to those who have paid extra to avoid that situation.

My wife is pregnant which is one of the main reasons we bought first class tickets too. We even debated if we would even purchase a first class ticket with our child out of respect to others. We wouldn't just like we wouldn't go to a fancy restaurant with a newborn.

I can't wait till they allow cell phones. I predict it won't end well.
think you should have rented a private jet if you did not want to deal with the public.
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I think the OP used flight credit vouchers from cancelled flights; not his own frequent flyer points.

So essentially, the airline in question actually paid for his travel anyway.

To answer the original question - yes, you're being a grumpy old man and no, you are in no way entitled to a 'refund'. Did you safely arrive at your destination? Did you enjoy onboard service of drinks and food?

No refund. End of story.

Can we all just move along now...?
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The OP asked for opinions and a lot if very thoughtful ones have been posted here.

What the OP did not ask for was to be insulted. If guy can't express yourself without getting your panties in a bunch and name-calling, then best to stay out of the discussion.
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genie wrote:
The OP asked for opinions and a lot if very thoughtful ones have been posted here.

What the OP did not ask for was to be insulted. If guy can't express yourself without getting your panties in a bunch and name-calling, then best to stay out of the discussion.
Yes, I agree. This thread appears to have turned into an ugly example of pack mentality.

It is possible to have a different opinion without being nasty.
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joedevola wrote:
Unfortunately, airlines now want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to market the 'premium experience', but they don't want to exclude infants and children from business and first class either. What does that mean? You buy your ticket and take your chance. Earplugs and noise cancelling headsets help, and so do understanding and helpful crew.
Joe-

It's a two way street, as fliers want their cake and the ability to eat it as well. As Bob Crandall noted 20 years ago, air travel has become a commodity, not a service. Airlines simply sell the cheapest possible seats between Point A and Point B, because that's what the general public wants. That these cheap seats do not generate enough revenue to provide a host of "creature comforts" is another story.

As to "elite status" - My Dad taught me that being"'elite" is based on how I behave, not what I can afford or my expectations of others. Noblesse oblige?
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This thread is a Karma Blood bath Popcorn emoticon
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UTC quote
I once had a customer being a complete ass at my gate...he said "you have to do what I fucking want, I'M A FUCKING ELITE"

I just looked at him and said "No Sir, your frequent flyer card is, but that in no way implies your social status."

He gave me evils and walked away.

The one airline phrase I absolutely despise is "Elite Status". You just fly a lot, usually on your companies money. Get over yourself already!
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genie wrote:
The OP asked for opinions
He asked a rhetorical question. He didn't want opposing opinions.

Crying babys suck. That is a given.

The OP seems to think he is above the general population.

Buy the stew a drink and invite her to be a part of the "mile high club". He obviously has the money. Clown emoticon
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UTC quote
Al Davis wrote:
genie wrote:
The OP asked for opinions
He asked a rhetorical question. He didn't want opposing opinions.

Crying babys suck. That is a given.

The OP seems to think he is above the general population.

Buy the stew a drink and invite her to be a part of the "mile high club". He obviously has the money. Clown emoticon
(What if the Flight Attendant was a fella?)
⚠️ Last edited by DaveLX on UTC; edited 1 time
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Facepalm emoticon Al Davis (Raiderfn31, whatever you're calling yourself these days), you're a dick. what part of 'stop insulting the OP' wasn't clear to you? that's earned you a timeout. Happy New Year!
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genie wrote:
Facepalm emoticon Al Davis (Raiderfn31, whatever you're calling yourself these days), you're a dick. what part of 'stop insulting the OP' wasn't clear to you? that's earned you a timeout. Happy New Year!
Yes I <3 Genie out of the closet Raiderfn31 LOL I wanted to know who you were LOL. Banned and back with a name change.
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Perspective
Despite the name 'First Class', we are all hopefully evolved beyond expectations of an actual class or caste system in any aspect of our lives.

Paying for a first class seat does not mean anyone will call you 'Sahib', fan you with palm fronds or peel grapes for you. Your flight experience, like a comparable experience in a fine restaurant, is going to be hit or miss based on a number of variables... including the behavior of those who are seated nearby.

To expect, in this day and age, that any business is going to turn away a paying customer paying top/full price in order to eliminate the small possibility that another paying customer will be uncomfortable, is unrealistic.

I fly quite frequently for business, and rarely get to upgrade to business or first class. But when I do upgrade, I assume it entitles me to nothing more than a bigger, more comfortable seat with more legroom, slightly more attentive service from the cabin staff, more frequent drink service and perhaps a better rubber chicken dinner or rubber omelet breakfast served on glass and china instead of plastic.

That's it!

Moving out of 'cattle class' does not mean you are joining a private club where noisy kids, rude people and riffraff are banished from sight, smell and earshot. You are still traveling among the general population for all the good an bad that that implies.

And yes, the general population includes, overweight people who crowd you, loud talkers who keep you awake, those with questionable hygienic habits whose, er, aromas assault your senses... and even [gasp] parents with infants whose tiny eustachian tubes are unable to adjust to the rapid changes in cabin pressure, causing them to scream during take-off and landing as if they are being stuck with hot pokers

My strategy for dealing with the occasional encounter with unpleasant travel companions is to remind myself of the miracle I am experiencing... being able to hurtle through the sky at 800 MPH at 30,000 feet in a pressurized aluminum tube (whose every part is supplied by the lowest bidder!)... and arrive safely at my destination every single time!
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Quote:
As Bob Crandall noted 20 years ago, air travel has become a commodity, not a service. Airlines simply sell the cheapest possible seats between Point A and Point B, because that's what the general public wants. That these cheap seats do not generate enough revenue to provide a host of "creature comforts" is another story.
Actually, they try to sell the most expensive seats possible

For most passengers, yes air travel has become a commodity, prices (and service) have come down as a result. However, first class on a premium (dare i say 'legacy') carrier really is an exceptional experience with an equally exceptional price tag. First class with Emirates, Singapore, Qantas or Cathay, for example is a radically different experience from first class on a US domestic carrier. I don't refer to these services as 'elitist', they are simply 'premium', for which the customer/passenger pays a premium fare.

In the end it is about making money. If people are willing to pay the price, the service will continue. I do note that the number of first class seats on my carrier is going down, while they have set up a whole new airline to attract the low cost market. I concur that making money involves not excluding infants and children in those premium cabins.

Frustration is a lot to do about a situation not meeting your expectations. Unfortunately, airline marketing is not about to tell you the expectation of premium travel is paying 2-3 times the standard fare to still have the crying toddler next to you for 12 hours.
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yes
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joedevola wrote:
I do note that the number of first class seats on my carrier is going down, while they have set up a whole new airline to attract the low cost market.
Many US airlines have not only reduced the number of "Premium" seats across the board, but also changed to "two class" service on many of their international routes, offering only "Business" and "Economy", with some "Preferred Economy" (a bit more leg room than "Standard Economy" and nothing else - at a price). My wife notes that on the US carrier from which she retired, most "First Class" seats on domestic routes are now occupied by frequent flier "upgrades", and not bringing in much in the way of additional revenue, other than modest upgrade fees, if applicable.

Yes, and I should have more accurately said that the airlines are having to sell seats cheap enough to satisfy the general public, who want the cheapest possible seats between Point A and Point B.

I would also note that no major US carrier has succeeded in creating a successful low cost subsidiary, which Bob Crandall once noted was really nothing more than "creative accounting". As to independent US discount airlines, they represent a niche market in domestic US travel- about 25%. 9 of 30 such airlines have survived since 1978, and of those 9, Southwest (combined with AirTrans, which it has purchased) holds about 60% of that niche market. The only real "accomplishments" of US domestic discounters, besides keeping bankruptcy lawyers in business, is to reduce the standards of travel experience across the entire industry.
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numb bum
this threads quality ..... whens the movie out
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@maddad avatar
2013 LX150 ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 39
Location: Lancaster, PA
UTC quote
Compare children to dogs and get a neutral rating tells me more than I need to know about the MV Forum. "moderators"?
@stickyfrog avatar
UTC

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22659
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
@stickyfrog avatar
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22659
Location: Nashville, Indiana
UTC quote
175mws wrote:
genie wrote:
Facepalm emoticon Al Davis (Raiderfn31, whatever you're calling yourself these days), you're a dick. what part of 'stop insulting the OP' wasn't clear to you? that's earned you a timeout. Happy New Year!
Yes I <3 Genie out of the closet Raiderfn31 LOL I wanted to know who you were LOL. Banned and back with a name change.
I predict another 20-30 tries to register again. Remember "Beef Wellington" doesn't work. Laughing emoticon
@belkwinith avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Honda CTX 700 DN Automatic Motorcycle
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5122
Location: Naperville, Illinois
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@belkwinith avatar
Honda CTX 700 DN Automatic Motorcycle
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5122
Location: Naperville, Illinois
UTC quote
We made reservations at a very nice resturant on a Friday night for my BF's birthday and we invited friends.

You wouldn't expect a baby, but there one was, right next to us and it screamed for a couple hours.

It didn't bother me, but it bothered my guests. A lot. Everyone is different.

Baby's are a part of life. How awful it would be if we never heard a baby cry again. I can think of a lot worse sounds.

@genie avatar
UTC

Gobshite Shiva
Kymco Downtown 300i the 'Dolphin Noise'
Joined: UTC
Posts: 14960
Location: London UK
 
Gobshite Shiva
@genie avatar
Kymco Downtown 300i the 'Dolphin Noise'
Joined: UTC
Posts: 14960
Location: London UK
UTC quote
Maddad wrote:
Compare children to dogs and get a neutral rating tells me more than I need to know about the MV Forum. "moderators"?
karma isn't moderated unless the system is being abused i.e. members giving repeated positives and negatives to the another member for the purpose of falsely boosting or reducing karma.

also: 'neutral' can mean that the post is trending positive, as well as negative
@mutt_the_hoople avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Buddy Pamplona 50cc, Vespa GTV 250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1519
Location: Saint Louis
 
Molto Verboso
@mutt_the_hoople avatar
Buddy Pamplona 50cc, Vespa GTV 250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1519
Location: Saint Louis
UTC quote
Re: Perspective
Treppenwitz wrote:
Despite the name 'First Class', we are all hopefully evolved beyond expectations of an actual class or caste system in any aspect of our lives.

Paying for a first class seat does not mean anyone will call you 'Sahib', fan you with palm fronds or peel grapes for you. Your flight experience, like a comparable experience in a fine restaurant, is going to be hit or miss based on a number of variables... including the behavior of those who are seated nearby.

To expect, in this day and age, that any business is going to turn away a paying customer paying top/full price in order to eliminate the small possibility that another paying customer will be uncomfortable, is unrealistic.

I fly quite frequently for business, and rarely get to upgrade to business or first class. But when I do upgrade, I assume it entitles me to nothing more than a bigger, more comfortable seat with more legroom, slightly more attentive service from the cabin staff, more frequent drink service and perhaps a better rubber chicken dinner or rubber omelet breakfast served on glass and china instead of plastic.

That's it!

Moving out of 'cattle class' does not mean you are joining a private club where noisy kids, rude people and riffraff are banished from sight, smell and earshot. You are still traveling among the general population for all the good an bad that that implies.

And yes, the general population includes, overweight people who crowd you, loud talkers who keep you awake, those with questionable hygienic habits whose, er, aromas assault your senses... and even [gasp] parents with infants whose tiny eustachian tubes are unable to adjust to the rapid changes in cabin pressure, causing them to scream during take-off and landing as if they are being stuck with hot pokers

My strategy for dealing with the occasional encounter with unpleasant travel companions is to remind myself of the miracle I am experiencing... being able to hurtle through the sky at 800 MPH at 30,000 feet in a pressurized aluminum tube (whose every part is supplied by the lowest bidder!)... and arrive safely at my destination every single time!
Exactly. Perfectly stated.
UTC

Addicted
2017 BV 350 Matte Black (donated)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 763
Location: Northern Virginia
 
Addicted
2017 BV 350 Matte Black (donated)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 763
Location: Northern Virginia
UTC quote
You are not unreasonable, simply unrealistic. Maybe once, many, many years ago when folks still "dressed up" to fly, you might expect a quiet, luxurious first class cabin experience. In 2013, not a chance in hell.

You are experiencing the twin pressures of folks wanting to fly anywhere at anytime for the lowest possible fare in an industry that historically has never turned a profit on passenger carriage. What you get are smaller planes -- oh the joys of sitting in an Embraer 145 for a 1000 mile trip, and fewer flights just so every available seat is filled. The reality of air travel today is that you are on an airborne transit bus and that reality will not change. Maybe, but not in my lifetime, the US will have a high speed rail net that will replace many of the shorter hop flights, but until then, expect hours of discomfort crammed into an 18 inch wide seat and paying extra for food from the cart.
UTC

The Host with the Toast
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7199
Location: SoCal
 
The Host with the Toast
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7199
Location: SoCal
UTC quote
stickyfrog wrote:
175mws wrote:
genie wrote:
Facepalm emoticon Al Davis (Raiderfn31, whatever you're calling yourself these days), you're a dick. what part of 'stop insulting the OP' wasn't clear to you? that's earned you a timeout. Happy New Year!
Yes I <3 Genie out of the closet Raiderfn31 LOL I wanted to know who you were LOL. Banned and back with a name change.
I predict another 20-30 tries to register again. Remember "Beef Wellington" doesn't work. Laughing emoticon
This is proof positive once banned, coming back with a new name can't fix a persons post habits.. Some name changes have gone well but others have not. I'm more in favor of a lifetime ban or only come back with same name.
@judy avatar
UTC

World Traveler
2007 LX150 Daring Plum Leonardo Da Vespa
Joined: UTC
Posts: 29304
 
World Traveler
@judy avatar
2007 LX150 Daring Plum Leonardo Da Vespa
Joined: UTC
Posts: 29304
UTC quote
I think the cell phone usage will make crying babies pale in comparison. They'll need Mr T not just bouncers. Texting is fine but if i have to sit next to somebody yabbering for 17hrs, i maybe in jail at the end of the flight. Crying or Very sad emoticon Maybe Mr T would be good for crying babies as well. Laughing emoticon One "fool" and they'd be quiet. Anybody or anything that you have to listen to for hours in an enclosed space is annoying IMHO. I once had a woman who hadn't flown before because she sat there and said (very loudly over and over) "Jesus please don't let this plane crash". Livid emoticon Livid emoticon I told the flight attendant that she better move me to another seat or i was going to bill the airline for all my psychiatric care i was going to need when i got off the plane. She moved me to first class.
@maddad avatar
UTC

Member
2013 LX150 ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 39
Location: Lancaster, PA
 
Member
@maddad avatar
2013 LX150 ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 39
Location: Lancaster, PA
UTC quote
Sorry genie I didn't know comparing a child with a dog was acceptable to some people. BTW HOW DO YOU GET TO BE A MODERATOR
@treppenwitz avatar
UTC

saggezza di scala
2009 'Burma Shave' Red GTS 250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7060
Location: Israel
 
saggezza di scala
@treppenwitz avatar
2009 'Burma Shave' Red GTS 250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7060
Location: Israel
UTC quote
Maddad wrote:
BTW HOW DO YOU GET TO BE A MODERATOR
No idea. But I have an idea you are about to find out what it feels like to be the focus of some serious moderator interest.
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