Modern Vespa

Hi everyone! I took my MP3 400 scoot to my brother's house last fall and I'm getting ready to bring it home. The ride out is almost all uphill. So coming home-lots of downhill! With traffic lights at the bottom of some of the hills, and curves right before the lights! I'm a nervous nelly (can't you tell?!) and wondering what the best way to handle all that downhill riding is? I go pretty slow when in doubt and ride at low traffic times too.

Thanks!!

Thanks!

I would make sure that you have plenty of brake pads ... cause you maybe riding your brakes a lot, to keep control of your scoot.

Hi Molly2009

I think first and foremost, you must be relaxed and trust in thee
on the mp3 , it's you the boss !, it's not the mp3.
do not forget to take your driving pleasure the mp3 ,
good road

Don't ride the brakes, it keeps the brakes fresher. Brake, reduce speed 5-10mph or more, then allow gravity to increase your speed. Repeat as often as necessary. The engine will help a little with the braking. Apply rear brakes first to scrub off speed, then the front as necessary, especially going around curves. Don't worry, be happy! You'll do just fine. Hills and curves are part of the joy of riding the MP3. The front brakes are awesome. Besides if you had enough skill to make it to the top, you have enough to make it back down, while enjoying your ride.

I would suggest that you do not use the tilt lock for quite some time. It has caused myself and others a bit of grief especially in the early days on the mp3.

Even today I find there are moments when I feel more comfortable putting my feet down when coming to a stop.

Good luck and let us know how it went........

to echo on gsheff comments.

use your rear the most for sure, and when using the fronts use a soft touch, Do not use the fronts firm going down hill.

Make sure you have strong feel on both brake levers. If they feel soft, try pumping them several times to see if they firm up. If so you have air in the lines. If they feel soft while coming to a stop, pump them several times.

Quick way to bleed them is to zip tie the brake levers full on and leave over night. the air will find its way to the master cylinder. I just found this out on a forum (maybe this one) and couldn't believe after all these years, that nobody figured that out earlier. Tried it and it Works!

I like the tilt-lock and am a big fan of using it if I am stuck in place for an extended period of time at a light. However, going down-hill I would strongly recommend that at any time you are sitting at a light not to use the tilt-lock or to manually disengage it before applying throttle/moving forward. I have had the experience of it seeming like the tilt-lock release hung for a second or two longer than normal while going down hill. For a moment, the bike was very unsteady because I had forward momentum but the wheels had not unlocked so I couldn't lean and I almost went off the road. It was disconcerting at the least, and possibly dangerous at the most depending on the situation. This may have been a result from the bike already moving forward because of the slope and having to put more throttle on the bike than normal to get it to rev up to the 2500 or so rpm release point that would be easy to do on a level surface.

As everyone else stated, use the rear break as your primary to keep your speed moderate and only apply the front break gradually.

Hi everyone! Thanks so much for the advice- you guys are fast!! I love the tilt lock but only for parking and hauling the scoot around. I haven't tried it at a stop light or stop sign, mostly because I read in the forums that using it wrong was a main reason why people dropped these things at stops. I like having my feet down, it feels like I have more control.

I'm really glad I asked about this. My instinct would be to use both brakes equally, mostly because the MSF people said to do that with a regular motorcycle. I'm assuming I should not be attempting to brake in a curve, yes?

Going uphill was a little scary at first but then was fun! I think I'm worried because of the curves combined with stops, and I haven't ridden since October because it's the winter from you-know-where here!!!

Also, can I reduce speed by laying off the throttle? Then use the rear brake gently, and sort of pump the front brake if I need to? Does that sound right?

The tilt-lock is not inherently dangerous and you should not fear it as long as you understand what it is and what it is not. It is not dynamite or nitroglycerine that can explode at any moment. Using the tilt-lock at a long stop-light to stretch the legs or shift around a little on the bike is not a problem. The only concern is to give it enough throttle that as the tilt-lock disengages that you have enough forward movement on the bike and that you, as the rider, have enough balance to keep the bike from going over. It is not difficult to master once you get a feel for the bike. HOWEVER, this is an individual decision that every MP3 rider needs to make on their own based on knowledge of the risks involved, i.e. falling down, damaging your bike and yourself, looking ridiculous to those around you, and potentially being run over by a cager, as well as with their own comfort level and riding experiences on the MP3. This also applies to using the tilt-lock on the move while coming to a halt (another item that causes intense and heated discussions on this forum). It is not inherently evil to do this. It just needs to be an informed choice. My wife only uses her tilt-lock while parking the bike or sitting at long lights. She manually unlocks her tilt-lock with her feet down before pulling away from a stopped position. I am the opposite. Neither way is right nor wrong, just our individual, informed choice.

As to your other questions: Use of both brakes is a good idea in most circumstances. Exclusive use of your back brake will dramatically increase your braking distance as, per the discussions in most MSF classes, your front brakes supplies most of your usable braking force. However, using the front brakes exclusively will cause the front of your bike to dip causing a transfer of weight off the back of the wheel resulting in decreased braking force from the back wheel and an increase of braking distance off the ideal braking distance. Appropriate use of the back brake at the same time as the front help keeps the bike's suspension level with a reduction in overall braking distance since both tires are providing resistence to forward movement. Obviously, sudden overuse of the front brake on a down-hill could result in so much force transfer to the front of the bike that you and the bike go over. Going downhill, moderate use of the back brake and also engine braking are the best way to keep your bike under control. Add in a good dose of situational awareness and you should have no problems. The book, Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well by David L. Hough (available through many sources including Amazon and Amazon Kindle http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_11?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=proficient+motorcycling&sprefix=proficient+%2Caps%2C290) is a great resource and has some great information on this subject.

Braking in a curve may be a little bit more forgiving on an MP3 but the basic rules of riding from your MSF class should still apply in that you want to get the bike straightened back up before utilizing the brakes. The slope of the hill will compound any stopping on corners but if you keep your speed moderated (slow-medium) and your head on a swivel you should not have a problem. As always, do not let anyone push you into doing something on your bike that exceeds your comfort level. If you continue to ride motorcycles (2 or 3 wheeled ones) your experience will grow and all this will become second nature.[/u]

Yeah don't touch the front brake in a curve especially on a downhill curve. You can lightly drag the rear but don't get too heavy.

While riding in the mountains with the MP3 'necks I found that on the steep downhill straights I could knock of enough speed with engine braking and some use of the fronts to give me a manageable entrance speed for the curves.

LouLou is spot on too. You ride your scoot and don't let it ride you. Even if it means you have to slow way down to feel comfortable. And don't let anyone push you. If you get traffic behind just find a safe place to pull over and let them by. You will get into trouble if you are focusing on what is behind you the same as you would if you were trying to keep up with a faster rider.

Good luck. You will be fine. gsheff is right, you got it up there, you can get it down.

That is BAD advice, to use the Rear Brakes by themselves, or to "Scrub Speed" using the rear brakes only.

The Front brakes provide the majority (80%) of your braking power, leaving the Rears with little to offer except Stabilizing the bike during (front/rear) braking.

Worse is that if you rely on the Rears by themselves, then you will tend to Slide the rear wheel; which can easily be an uncontrollable situation, especially for a novice rider.

On a recent ride back to Yuma, AZ from San Diego, CA with high wind advisories; I was dropping down out of a mountain pass and the wind gusts did make for an interesting ride. I saw at least five heavy black skidmarks leading to drop-offs or into cliffs. I would guess there have been several fatalities there. Using techniques like those already mentioned here; I made it home safely. With a healthy dose of caution, practice, and common sense you should be fine.

That's the problem here, as OP does not have opportunity to Practice on this bike before the trip... Hence he may run into trouble, if following the bad advice above about relying on the Rear brake.

I'd hate to hear that he became the source of one of those Skid Marks you describe, leading up to the cliff edge.


Sorry but NO NO NO NO NO, in regards to using the Rear Brake as recommended above.

I don't think that you are reading Heinlein's comment correctly, or any of the other comments about rear brakes, correctly. He specifically stated "You can lightly drag the rear but don't get too heavy." My experience is that using a little bit of rear brake only to scrub just a little bit of speed works very well. Also, while going down hill it works well to not only better manage the hill but also to keep the back of the bike in the back and the front of the bike in the front. I can only assume that you have more riding experience than I do since I have only been riding for several years now, but it seems that the majority of folks on this thread seem to disagree with you.

I agree that the OP will probably not have the opportunity to practice on this particular return trip. A heavy dose of cautious riding and moderated speed are the best recommendation for the OP.

No way, no how is an MP3 going to Flip upside down from use of the front brake, on a downhill or otherwise!!! It simply is too heavily loaded on the rear wheel (due to the engine being mounted to the swing arm, and the overall low center of gravity), to have enough of a "Moment" (rotating force) during heavy braking.

I have purposefully Slide both front wheels on my MP3 (on flat ground), and found Zero tendency for the bike to rotate forward... it simply does not happen, and would not short of an Extremely ( > 25% ) downward slopped hill. I say this having regularly done many Front End Wheelies on bicycles and sport bikes, hence I know the feeling of having the bike rotate forward during hard braking.

Bottom Line: Do use the front brakes, and in-fact Rely on the front brakes Anytime you need braking... including downhill, and cornering if need be.

Now this is BAD advice. You jump on the front brake in a curve and you will do one of two things. Straighten up and cause you to go wide or lose the front and go down hard. Stop giving bad advice.

Use the fronts and rear on downhill straits but don't touch the fronts on a curve. Especially a downhill curve. Especially if the downhill curve has gravel on it.

It is basic riding knowledge. I am thinking someone needs a review.

I do not recommend Jumping on the brake in a curve, front or rear. However, use of Either is quite ok so long as you remain within the limits of your traction; and the corollary being that it is FAR better to set your Entrance Speed to the curve so that you do not need to brake at all while corning.

I commonly do a Light application of the brakes in curves (although of course not if there's any extraordinary concern for lack of traction, due to poor road conditions) to fine-tune my Line ...and I assure you that I ride Hard enough to be at the limits of traction.

Braking on a curve merely means that you need to apply more Countersteering Force on the inboard handle bar, so as to counter the bike's tendency to stand up and straighten out.

here is a link to someone doing a stoppie , just front brakes
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmoto.caradisiac.com%2FPiaggio-MP3-Point-de-chute-378&langpair=fr|en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Bro if you are touching the fronts (or the rears) in a curve you have already failed and gone in too hot. You are bringing the bike up and having to apply more counter steer to stay in lean which puts more forces into play. If you are commonly doing it then I doubt you are riding to the limits but rather past them. You are overriding then correcting. Difference between a rider and a good rider.

That said I know you know this and I know you know that entrance speed is the key. You really need to be careful telling someone with less experience to brake in a curve anytime.

Provide me a Video of that, showing his Technique, and then I'll believe it's an concern... Until then, I leave room for the possibility that this rider Stood Up (eg Raised the bikes center of gravity; a common method BTW) in order to induce the bike to do a front wheelie/stoppie.

The OP however is not likely to be standing up on his bike during hard front wheel braking, hence I remain unconvinced that the MP3 will tend to Flip Over from hard use of the front brake.


Ninja Edit:
^ Notice rider's knees up against the front of the bike... suggesting to me that he was Standing UP and perhaps leaning forward, immediately prior to this photo being taken.

Forget the flip over. Have you ever seen a bike lose the front end in a curve? Google it. Front brakes in a curve are always a bad sign especially if you are too hot. Better to drop it as hard as you can and stay on the throttle. You may make it or you may low side but it is better than the front dropping out an doing a faceplant. Or worse giving too much brake and going wide or having the rear slide momentarily and then highsiding.

I'm not trying to teach OP how to Brake Hard in a Corner, nor am I recommending it.

Rather, I'm trying to teach OP that he should Fully Use that Front Brake to the limits of the traction that it can provide, without fear that the bike will Flip Over ...eg He's far more likely to get into trouble Not using the front brake than to use it.

i am not going to argue with you. the guys in the pics are not standing up doing stoppies,

Fact is the scoot is capable of doing them. The brakes have the potential, now granted most riders are very hard pressed or skilled enough to do it but its there and can be done. No standing required either. I have seen the video a couple years ago but when searching for it tonight it has been deleted. I know others on the forum have seen it as there is a couple threads about 5 years ago showing it.

Did you read my other post?

Speaking from personal experience going into a corner too hot and hitting both braking in a desperate try to reduce or bleed off speed is a bad idea. I know of two others beside myself who run off the road on curves at the gatherings. Two of them lost it and I hit the bar ditch, Don't know to this day what kept me upright. One of them used a ton of duct tape to keep his scoot together.

Wow! Lots going on! Much of that is terrifying! That's it, I'm trailering it home!

But seriously, do you mostly agree that if I slow down well before the curve, get off all brakes entering it, and then roll on the throttle coming out I should be okay? The downhill part is what's tricky, at least to me. The straight downhill parts are where I should be slowing up so I'm not going into curves too fast, yes?

Thanks everyone- so much to think about. I think if this scoot stands up on its front end I will die of fear before I ever hit the ground!

You are spot on. Do this and you will be gold. Don't let a bunch of pedantic discussion worry you. We love to argue. Make sure to look through your turns and roll on slowly and even.

I agree with sticky on this.

I agree with Sticky and OAD on this.


Group Hug

April fool! OK here's a hug but no reach around.

Phew! Okay I can start breathing again!!

But of course I thought of more questions!! On the straight downhill stretches, should I lean back or forward? I'm guessing I don't want a lot of weight on my wrists? And is it okay on just those straight stretches to use both front and back brakes?

Thanks!!!

Do whatever is Comfortable for you, as it makes no difference one way or the other, whether you lean forward or back.

Yes, by all means, use both front and rear brakes on long straight stretches... Better though would be to use Engine Braking (eg Closed throttle) first, then and only then apply brakes (so as to avoid unnesesarily overheating them)

just ride normal, don't over exaggerate your posture.

Hi everyone, sorry about the delay in responding. Thank you all again, your advice really helps!! My return trip was delayed but once I get the scoot home I'll report back!

Hi everyone!!! So my fears were for nothing. (But you all knew that, didn't ya?). The ride went really well, the hills were a piece of cake. I mostly used engine braking and it was fine. Dodging potholes turned out to be a bigger issue!! Ha! Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all your help.

Time for a new battery though. The thing wouldn't turn over but had power so my brother charged it and was fine for the 45 min ride. But I turned it off when I got home, went to turn it back on a few minutes later and the same thing happened. Always something!

Well done. That sounds more like you have to check the charging system on the bike.

Good for you. I realize the discussion here was mostly on conventional braking while going downhill, but the use of engine braking on a CVT bike is an acquired skill and can be quite useful as you discovered.

Thanks guys! The charging system eh? It used to do this last year and if I kept it on a trickle charger it was okay. But the battery was on a charger all winter. My dad took the battery so I can't play now.

What's a good way to check the system once I either get the battery back or get a new one? The battery is the original and it's a 2008.