Modern Vespa

So I recently replaced my flywheel cover with new water pump bearings and all, new motobat, oil change, coolant flush ect. Everything went on fine until I noticed oil leaking inside the transfer case!

It might have been leaking prior due to failed water pump this past summer.

Has anyone DIY this job? If so do I need any special tools? I know I have to pick up a variator removal tool. The maintenance manual calls for a oil guard punch remover (part# 020622Y). Is this necessary?

I found all the parts needed
1. 847116 OEM Piaggio/Vespa Timing System Cover/Seal
2. BZ5442 Buzzetti Variator Locking Tool For 250, 300cc
3. Doing my rollers and belt as we'll 6400 miles total.

If anyone has attempted or completed this job please advise!

Currently the gts starts and runs with the oil leaking being an issue.

Thanks all

Not 100% sure I understand your issue, but if you can get to the plate and seal as shown in the picture, you can remove the seal by inserting wood screws into the seals face (rubber covered steel) and extracting with pliers. Then you can simply press in the new seal with your strong fingers or wooden hammer handle. That would be better than trying to get that plate off in my opinion. Make sure new seal's lips are seated properly on the crankshaft as you install.

Hell, half the time I just shove a flat head screw driver in behind the seal and force it out. Don't scratch that crankshaft though!

Is it possible the oil guard shifted out and needs to be pressed in?

Do you happen to know mileage wise when these usually need replacement?

Thanks a bunch for the tip on screws ect

So I took the half of the varriator off the other half is stuck on the drive axel!

The oil guard looks like it shifted and is upside down with the lip half off

Explains the leak!

I could not get the back plate of the varriator off ...

The rollers were destroyed ... Will post pics of the rollers.

First pic

Rollers

wow! what happened there?

i mean, there's gotta be a root cause for that somewhere, something like that just doesn't manifest itself out of nowhere.

it's either an improper install on a variator or you've got a crank problem-- or possibly a timing/oil pump chain or drive cog issue.

anyway, yes, you can do the job without the special remover/installer but it's a real pain in the ass. you will need some type of special tools to reassemble the trans components properly.

post up some more pix if you can.

-g

not in this instance. the crank seal is integral to the metal timing cover and the cover has a vulcanized rubber seal on the OD that seals to the case.

the whole thing is wedged in there tighter than a bull's ass at fly time, so really you need the tool to do it correctly.

best,
-greasy

Okay, so my water pump started to leak and I let it go until it was too late!

The coolant ended mixing with the oil and poof gone with the wind ... The pressure must have pushed the oil guard out when this happened!

Prior to this ... I rode my Vespa like it was a sport bike ... It really is a blast of a little thing the gts.

I will post more pics of transfer case. It was dark out when I finished pulling everything out tonight.

The backplate of the varriator would not budge... Any suggestions? Going to make some sore of puller using a bottom bracket tool.


Any suggestions would be great.

Hey greasy have you ever seen these partially knocked put or upside down?

The vespa has not been ridden since the oil leak water-pump failure incident.
It has been started recently after recent work was done and ran fine on stand (minus the oil leak)

no, i have not seen cover seal jump out due to "internal pressure". the only time i've seen them move was due to some type of catastrophic failure-- crank, timing/oil pump cogs, or variator.

throw some more pix up and lets see if we can deduce what went wrong.

-g

Pics

Another

Another angle

You can pull the variator back off with a three-prong puller - HF do a set of four very cheaply, especially with a coupon.

However, some wiggling side to side together with some penetrating oil will do the job eventually, but with more frustration.

Ouch.

Never seen that before.

It takes ALOT of force to push that cover out, or pull it out, or push it in.

Coolant in the oil kills lubrication and very bad things happen.

That looks like a very bad thing.

If it were mine I would tear it down to parts & hope the main bearings & crank were okay. Short of that put a micrometer on the crank and check the runout.

Something powerful made that happen, IMHO.

Good luck with it.

R

+1 to mr. glass on that. something is... um... a bit off in there.

coolant in the oil for any length of time is no bueno, so i'm guessing that the crank is waxed and whilst in the throes of death it took something with it.

best guess: something quit in a hurry and coughed one of the timing cogs into the seal and because everything was still moving just enough all that mess got tangled up.

the long shot: crank separated. that half is pushing out against everything.

probability factor 50%: something in the trans let go and done ate up everything.

there's so many factors at play here to get a real bead on it. however, the one thing that sticks out to me like a sore thumb is just how hammered asshole those rollers are. i mean, i've seen some shit rafterman; i've been in country too long... i got the 1000 yard stare. but, dammn... i ain't never done seen nuthin' like that.

besides, that had to sound like the world was about to come to an absolute end with the sheer violence and noise it made.

remove the plate i need... moar!

-g

When this failure occurred I was on the highway cruising at 60 mph... And all of a sudden a loud pop and the exhaust started smoking! The throttle stopped responding, as I pulled over to the side of the road I immediately noticed oil all over the transfer case the, oil out of the filter, exhaust smoking it out. I then proceeded to start the bike after inspection but had very little response to the throttle (oil in transfer case?). It did move but barely so it was wheeled to my friend's body shop about a mile away. Hasn't been ridden since.

Those rollers look to be melted. The crank seal is probably melted too. With water in the oil, you lost lubricity and heat built up. The pop could have been from pre-detonation caused from the heat.

ohhh.... have you pulled the plug?

i'll bet it looks like christmas... all sparkly and what not.

in my professional opinion, you're probably going to need a new motor.

-g

+1

Looks promising ...

Pic of varriator and oil guard (stick together)

Another angle of sandwich

Here is the back of oil guard

Side angle of the same guard

Pic of the the varriator back plate and oil guard separated.

Pic of outer side of oil guard

Pic of the backside of the varriator, the lip was stuck to the oil guard.

Another pic of the oil guard and destroyed seal

I inspected the both chains and they looked undamaged. I believe the high temp pressure theory is most likely. All the inner parts, pump chain, chain guide do not show any scrapes... Perhaps the pressure pushed the seal into the varriator backplate which probably saved my engine. Crossing fingers.

wow! that got HOT big time...

how does the crank feel when you wiggle it-- back/forth & up/down?

-g

I posted pictures of a flywheel body water pump cover I recived from sip recently which worked just like the old one ... The catch is it came with a extra hole in the rear which is level to the ground that is threaded for some type of dipstick as there are holes for it. Not sure what to order to plug the thing up so I temporally put a cork in it literally for now.

No noticeable play or movement ... The cruddy seal was in my oil when I changed it (I thought these were part of the failed water pump bearings) doing another oil change after new guard is put on ... As for the varriator I'm not sure if I should upgrade to a polini 9 or a zeloni ... Another option is to drop to a 10.4 gram polini Rollie's for the stock.

Any of you guys running the shorter gt200 belt on a stock or upgraded varriator setup?

something i forgot to ask earlier... was any work done on the trans side prior to this? also, when you dismantled the transmission for this was the crank nut still on and tight?

No work ... Stock trans. The nut was on tight, the backplate of the varriator was seriously squished with the oil guard. Took about 20 mins of prying to separate.

Is the back plate of the variator suppose to have that lip/seat pictured on the back side? This was the part that buried itself into the guard.

yes, that ridge is supposed to be there on the back plate.

man, i'm intrigued. i've never seen anything like this before without major catastrophic damage.

crazy.

-g

Oh one mod was done. Polini Evo bell. This defiantly cut down on my clutch dust and since it hasn't sqealed.