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Rocket Man
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Ok, let me rephrase that. At what age should you allow a kid to learn how to drive a motorcycle? Well, this may seem like I'm bragging....hmmm, yeah I am doing some Grandpa bragging here. So, here's the deal. We've been giving riding lessons to my grandson that is 3 months shy of 4 years old. Here's a video of Talon on his Honda XR CRF50.

My son and I are in hot water with the wives. Although he can't ride a bike yet, we think he's ready to rid himself of those training wheels. They say he is way too young to be on a motorcycle to begin with, but the kid loves it. He actually sleeps with his helmet at times. So, what does team "Sponsored by Grandpa" do? Take the motorcycle away and give him a sidewalk tricycle from Walmart? Am I really being unfair about this and endangering a child as I've been told? Thoughts?
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Buy him a faster bike Razz emoticon Razz emoticon Laughing emoticon
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If mama ain't happy, no one is..... Unfortunately for team grandpa, I think you have quite the uphill battle. No way I'd win that one in my house. That said, I did/do have a strategy for similar underground ops to accomplish similar goals which I will share with you. It may not be any help to you but will share my strategy anyway......

I had considered trying to get a small 50cc bike for my daughter and son. Wife was having nothing of it. I did some research after a trip to Fast By Ferracci which was an MV Agusta dealer where I'd stopped in for my own bike. While there I came across a "trials bike" they were selling for kids called an OSET. This is a top notch ducati, mv agusta, custom shop so it stood out As odd when I saw it... It's battery powered but very low center of gravity and made to compete and beat the petrol similar bikes doing off road "trials" competitions, etc. Apparently it's really good to learn how to ride on and I think it slides under the radar of "motorcycle"....but reality is, it's pretty hardcore piece of equipment! Maybe a way to ease them in and he can develop his talents, demonstrate his skills in front of said wives to make an easy transition to motors later. ....there you have it, my super duper secret plans to hoodwink my wife into accepting powered 2-wheeldom for my young kids and not realize I was doing it until it was too late. Hope it helps....
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Like Mr Al Smith said, "Let's look at the record." Motorbikes have been around for 100 years and the earliest regular starting age has been something in the low teens. Was that just an accident or is there a message in there someplace?
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If you're going to keep him on that machine, I think you better take off the training wheels before he gets hurt high siding it. Can't lean in the corners the way it is.
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YaYaDave wrote:
If you're going to keep him on that machine, I think you better take off the training wheels before he gets hurt high siding it. Can't lean in the corners the way it is.
Exactly. He's no longer putting around. He gets wide open. They need to come off before he can advance to the track. But, to convince his mother, that's another story.
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Every fun\cool activity comes with some degree of risk.

Take it slow, if mom see's the grom embracing the dirt bike, and it being a positive factor in his life she may eventually come around.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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As a mom - get him a bicycle and get him riding it without the training wheels. At almost 4 years old he's ready for a real bicycle instead of tricycle. Until he can balance a bicycle he ain't riding anything with a motor with less than 4 wheels.
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cool grampa
I like it, thats how I started, usually the moms will get over it, and if they dont, they should. just remember the safety gear and supervision. it looks like alot of fun.
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UTC quote
Re: (NSR) How young is too young?
flordian wrote:
Am I really being unfair about this and endangering a child as I've been told? Thoughts?
Maybe...I certainly don't think your grandson is too young to start riding, but giving him 50cc power on two wheels, before he can manage pedal power on two wheels, sounds like an invitation to trouble. For my two cents, I'd get him a bicycle he can flat foot, take the pedals off for him to learn to coast, then stick the pedals on for him to learn to ride a bicycle. The balance and coordination he learns on a bicycle, without the weight and torque of a dirt bike to contend with, will be a step away from child endangerment and a step towards a lifetime of two-wheeled adventure. Good luck!
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Sometimes this is a little bit of imprinting the kid with what Dad (and Grandpa) like. Nothing wrong with it, if it's Red Sox baseball, Ohio State football, or 80's hair bands. But as a Dad, I gotta say that it seems like a little bit of the cart before the horse.

Let the little guy master the bicycle first. Yes, some kids can handle 2 wheel balancing at 4 or so (I had one of those), but the kid is best served mastering the bicycle before learning the motorcycle. You'll be amazed how quickly a kid can become proficient at bikes, and then let him experiment with advanced skills, like jumps and slow speed balance (on the bicycle) before graduating him to the motor bike.

There's plenty of time for him to enjoy motorized riding, and even if he doesn't take it up till he's 6, he will still have 10 years before he even gets a permit for road riding.
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It's how racers are made. You rock Grandpa!
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The kid is named Talon, his future in the accounting field is already lost.

You also have him decked out in all the proper gear. Which is cool.
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Molto Verboso
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Larrytsg wrote:
Nothing wrong with it, if it's Red Sox baseball, Ohio State football, or 80's hair bands.
Man-am I gonna have some nightmares tonight!
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tomjasz wrote:
It's how racers are made. You rock Grandpa!
I hate to sound like a prig, prude, or Puritan; but there are a lot of people who don't think twelve is too young for a bride either. I guess it all boils down to one's (or more precisely one'e parents') values. If a child that young got hurt on a motorbike, who would society blame? And IMHO, they'd be right.

P.S. So he sleeps with his helmet. If he was playing baseball, he'd be sleeping with his glove (duh)!

P.P.S. Buster Keaton called it child abuse.
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Without letting Talon know what's going on, restrict the throttle to a speed that makes mom happy. WIN WIN
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Vespizzare wrote:
I hate to sound like a prig, prude, or Puritan;
Then don't be.

Seriously, which goofy mom or pop thinks football or baseball won't deliver a concussion? The kid is learning. The lessons here will carry on regardless of number of wheels.
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Molto Verboso
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If he gets that bike out on pavement with those "TRAINING" wheels on it, a sharp turn will tip him over. I think he is being allowed to run far too fast.
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He is riding a 50cc dirt bike designed for children. He would be much safer on the X-Box, playing some bullshit motocross game I guess.
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While it's good to help a child prepare for learning how to ride on two wheels, they way you're doing it is very bad and actually counter productive in many ways, developing bad riding habits and greatly increasing the risk/dangers of a crash. Even though your intentions are good, you don't realize that you're really not helping him, regardless of how much he enjoys it.

Here's a good introduction and explanation of the technical problem you're presenting for the kid.

There are MSF approved dirtbike schools for riders as young as 6 years old in your state. One of the requirements is that the child be able to ride a bike without training wheels. Getting him to that point safely and effectively would be a far more helpful way to prepare him for it.
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Start bending the training wheels up so he can start learning to take the curves and balance in the straights. That video made me smile. Fight the fight and keep him riding. He would be heartbroken if you took it away.
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multiscootguy wrote:
While it's good to help a child prepare for learning how to ride on two wheels, they way you're doing it is very bad and actually counter productive in many ways, developing bad riding habits and greatly increasing the risk/dangers of a crash. Even though your intentions are good, you don't realize that you're really not helping him, regardless of how much he enjoys it.

Here's a good introduction and explanation of the technical problem you're presenting for the kid.

There are MSF approved dirtbike schools for riders as young as 6 years old in your state. One of the requirements is that the child be able to ride a bike without training wheels. Getting him to that point safely and effectively would be a far more helpful way to prepare him for it.
I strongly agree with this. You are setting him up for disaster with those training wheels. He will never learn proper form...as soon as you take off the trainers he will eat it hard! And then momma will be completely in the right! Then you will never hear the end of it. Plus it will take him much longer to learn on two wheels if starting with trainers. You are setting him up to ride a ATV instead of two wheels. Instead get him a balance bike and once he masters that get some with pedals then once that is good you can put him on a motorized bike.
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Molto Verboso
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Mom is right.
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I'm a rather old fart (well into my 70s), and haven't been without some form of PTW (mostly motorcycles, but now scooters) since I was 16. Luckily, I've never had a consequential accident.

That said, I'm well-aware of just how exposed and vulnerable one is on two wheels, and refused to approve of my son getting a bike when he was young (in fact, I said I'd disown him if he got one before he was 30). That may seem hypocritical, given my history, but Toronto traffic has become insane since I was a kid. I just couldn't bear the thought of him sustaining a serious injury, or worse, some sort of disability, from an activity that I encouraged. I also happen to have a nephew who ended up in a wheelchair at 18 because he bought a motorcycle.

I might have a different opinion if we lived in the boonies or a small town environment (akin to Toronto's traffic of 50 years ago), but combining the invincibility of youth with the madness of big city traffic, seems to me to be a recipe for potential disaster.

The end of the story is that, a few years ago when he was 40, my son bought a top-of-the line e-bike that suits his urbane purposes perfectly.
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Be prepared for crashes, no matter how well protected.
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DaBinChe wrote:
I strongly agree with this. You are setting him up for disaster with those training wheels. He will never learn proper form...as soon as you take off the trainers he will eat it hard!
With that view, flight simulators create dangerous pilots? I never had a trike. Rather a small training wheeled hard rubber tyres bicycle. All the Aunties were up in arms, i'm told, because I was so little and every little boy ought to have a trike first. I ended up feeling like bicycles were prosthetics. A part of me, and riding them has always been second nature. There's doers and watchers, and some of us will always see risk takers as foolish. Properly protected, I see no more harm than Pop Warner.
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PS To the first time posters who sign up to send NASTY PM's...
FWIW You are not anonymous to the moderators.
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Might be a tad young and i say this as a person who did things at a young age. I had my own gun at 6yrs. 22 that i could target shoot. Mom wasn't pleased but she got over it. I didn't get my first PTW until i was 8 and it went maybe 30-35 downhill. No gear back them and i went over a stone wall fence on my first ride (never told the parents). They said lean into the turns and i took them literally,like you really have to lean. Laughing emoticon I'm with CD on getting to ride a bike without training wheels. I would only let him ride where the pic is but beware you've created a monster. Hide the keys. I was good with my guns because i knew if i disobeyed my dad they'd be taken away. Set some really hard parameters and stick to them. He seems like a natural but be careful. Great age to start kids doing things tho. 8) I think the 50 is a bit to much HP but he seems to handle it. I went a bit slower but had no gear. Your decision.
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Reminds of a couple coming into work the other day.

The mum was fine with her 3 month old having her ears pearced but was adamant that she didn't want her son to start go karting at 5.

Equal rights my arse.
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Vespizzare wrote:
If a child that young got hurt on a motorbike, who would society blame? And IMHO, they'd be right.
Why does society have the right to judge and point the blame on someone anyway?

It's called learning a lesson.

Even the best drivers/riders in the world have accidents, and they're still learning everyday.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Balance first then power. The other way around is a receipe for problems. No training wheels either as it's a crutch for the brain motor control center they are trying to develop. Failure = Success in the long run. Each failure comes with a little success attached. The more failures that happen the sooner they dial in the motor control necessary to understand the balance and then add power. This is why all the little push bikes are so popular.

Either way you are going to have fun.

Cheers!
OP
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Thanks for your comments and thoughts
Wow, didn't intend to stir up such emotions with my original post. But, I must respond back after hitting that "Just Walk Away'" button a few times. This is lengthy, but necessary for me and will probably kill what little Karma I may have here.

First of all I was too vague with the post. I didn't want to make a never ending blabbering post of my current life's problems. Think that's what FB is for.

So, I want to step back a bit here.... After WW II, my Dad bought an old Harley 74. He striped it down and soon started racing it on flat tracks. Winner would make a few bucks for gas and groceries. Few years later, baby me came along. One of my first memories in life was that old Harley. I loved it. This second generation biker was now in the making. Yeah, I had a bicycle first, but no tires on it. My Dad drug an old Cushman home and promptly gave it to me. And, I promptly ran it into a big oak tree. No safety gear, but I lived. From that point on I always had an MC. Actually raced my 250 Greeves as a young teen wearing an old football helmet. I lived thru that too.

Now comes my 2nd born. This boy was fearless. Got into everything and climbed anything he could. But, as a toddler he would come running up to me when I took my CB350 out for a spin. He couldn't talk, but I knew what he wanted. His mother seen this passion also and found a little 'PiP' child's helmet for him. Off we went. He sat in front of me as I held him between my legs and arms. Soon he would lay his head down on the gas tank and sleep until we stopped. This is when our 3rd generation biker was born. Yep, I bought him a Yamaha PW50 when he was 4. First time on it we were in the garage. I started it and he layed open the throttle. Up and over the wash machine and up the wall. Left those tire marks on the wall for over 20 years. He progressed thru the years racing amateur MX. Eventually raced a season on the West Coast Supercross series at 18 for KAW. As one post said, make riding a reward. That we did. His riding became the carrot that kept him focused in school and kept him out of trouble. We both remember every Friday night putting a new top-in on the bike just so he'd have an edge at getting that hole shot. It became quite the bonding thing. The whole family cheering him on during those long Saturday 'biker' gatherings. But, school came calling. A college degree is a must in our family. His racing days were over, but his riding will never stop.

After graduation he married his long time sweetheart. She comes from a very protective family. Just like some of you that posted your thoughts. After little Talon started walking, which was very early, he started to show the traits and interests as his dad. Almost a clone of his dad I would say. Again, the motorcycle was calling. He'd scream until his dad took him for a ride. It's now obvious we have our fourth generation biker. NEVER forced upon him. Somehow it's just in his DNA. At three years old he could communicate like an adult (without Grandpa's swearing). Dad got him a little pedal bike. Wouldn't have a thing to do with it. He'd crawl up on his dad's Ninja and work the throttle and scream those engine noises thru each gear. Shortly afterwards, we as a family, went to our local MC dealer. After thoroughly looking over the options, we settled on his little Honda. This bike was designed for a first time small child. Very low geared. Adjustable speed control. Had the optional remote shut down installed. The training wheels came from the dealer. Safety gear? We wanted nothing but the best. Full under body armor plus the usual MX gear. Had his helmet custom fitted. Most important rule, bike would only be used on a supervised track and restricted areas designed for the little guys which most MX facilities have. After a few months up to present day, my son and I have decided to 'up' those training wheels as they were designed. Eventually to the point where we toss them. Something that most of you were adamant about. This is where his mom comes into the picture. We are a very tight family. We do most everything as a family. We don't hide our feelings from each other. We sit down and make a logical recommendation based on all the facts. But, it's up to the parents to step up and make the final decision.

Being old school as we are, we like to see our kids outside getting their hands dirty, eat some dirt, play in a cardboard box, climb trees, etc. We don't want them to become 'vidiots' and then turn them into permanent reminders of a temporary feeling. So, are we putting him at risk? Maybe so. But, lets not mention how and where most kids injuries come from. Just look for youtube clips of small kids on motorcycles, on approved safe tracks, getting hurt. Won't find many, if any. Now spend some time looking at other activities. Skateboarding alone would take you hours to watch. Nuff of that.

Now, for your posts. I asked you for your thoughts. Most of you were very polite and gave some great insight to help in our future decisions. Yes, we all have our own opinions. But, that's what makes us so great! The ability to listen to one's thought and respect that thought is most important for me. That's why I'm on MV. The respect from the vast majority of members on this site is quite admirable. As for those who attack another's opinion, well I'm too proud of an individual to make a comment on that issue.

I hope you all understand where I'm coming from here. Lets have a great week, have fun and keep those scoots right side up!

Still a a proud Grandpa.
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Moderatus Rana
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UTC quote
I am going to disagree with many that have posted and say I think you are doing everything right. Gear, grass and dirt. As for training wheels, most of us start using them on pedal bikes to learn balance and when they finally come off, well we sometimes have a few crashes but in an incredibly short time we figure it out. I see little difference with a little dirt bike on dirt.

Check out this kid's progression. Here is his first time without training wheels. Some humorous dumps especially 2:29 and 2:39. The second he runs to the camera and says he got Swoop Nasty. I am thinking he meant riding the whoop section of a dirt track. I only wish he had gloves on in this one.

Here he is six months later.

Here he is crashing in the Whoops the next year. His Dad thought it was because he checked out the girl in pink on the side of the track.

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UTC quote
I side with Sticky. I was riding at 6 and loved my dirt bikes growing up. I think that the training wheels provide the stability he needs. The open field, lack of obstacles and safety gear means that he isn't really in any serious danger. Furthermore, he seems to have a good grasp on control and riding.

Here is something I'd install:

http://www.3built.com/RESProductinfo.asp

It's a simple way to add a little control to the situation and will likely let the Moms have some peace of mind.
OP
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Rocket Man
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@flordian avatar
GTS 300 ABS 'Drake', GTS 250 (sold), LX 150 and Delta IV rocket. ( Retired. Not my problem anymore)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1934
Location: Space Coast Florida
UTC quote
stickyfrog wrote:
I am going to disagree with many that have posted and say I think you are doing everything right. Gear, grass and dirt. As for training wheels, most of us start using them on pedal bikes to learn balance and when they finally come off, well we sometimes have a few crashes but in an incredibly short time we figure it out. I see little difference with a little dirt bike on dirt.

Check out this kid's progression. Here is his first time without training wheels. Some humorous dumps especially 2:29 and 2:39. The second he runs to the camera and says he got Swoop Nasty. I am thinking he meant riding the whoop section of a dirt track. I only wish he had gloves on in this one.
Thanks Sticky! Really appreciate the posting of these videos. Will definitely pass them on to a couple of my family members.

What this demonstrates, and what's really missing in all this, is the kid having a blast! I think in the right environment, with the right equipment, a kid can still be a kid and have fun. Especially with the family.
@stickyfrog avatar
UTC

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22659
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
@stickyfrog avatar
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22659
Location: Nashville, Indiana
UTC quote
flordian wrote:
stickyfrog wrote:
I am going to disagree with many that have posted and say I think you are doing everything right. Gear, grass and dirt. As for training wheels, most of us start using them on pedal bikes to learn balance and when they finally come off, well we sometimes have a few crashes but in an incredibly short time we figure it out. I see little difference with a little dirt bike on dirt.

Check out this kid's progression. Here is his first time without training wheels. Some humorous dumps especially 2:29 and 2:39. The second he runs to the camera and says he got Swoop Nasty. I am thinking he meant riding the whoop section of a dirt track. I only wish he had gloves on in this one.
Thanks Sticky! Really appreciate the posting of these videos. Will definitely pass them on to a couple of my family members.
Well you might not want to show Mom the crash in the Whoops video.
@terryvanman avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Honda SH 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1146
Location: MALTA
 
Molto Verboso
@terryvanman avatar
Honda SH 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1146
Location: MALTA
UTC quote
terryvanman wrote:
Buy him a faster bike Razz emoticon Razz emoticon Laughing emoticon
Like I said before, get him a faster bike, the kids a bloody natural. you can see from the way he slides the bike "with" the training wheels, without them after loads of falls, he'll be doing the same thing. but he'll need more power to get out of trouble.

I look forward to his first race win Clown emoticon
@papa_j avatar
UTC

Hooked
Black Bess GT200L Vespa ET4, 125cc '02 Green gene
Joined: UTC
Posts: 280
Location: LDN. GB.
 
Hooked
@papa_j avatar
Black Bess GT200L Vespa ET4, 125cc '02 Green gene
Joined: UTC
Posts: 280
Location: LDN. GB.
UTC quote
Is there an age limit...
My two pennies,

Firstly, he's got it now in the vids, rolling on and off the power, looking ahead. He is all in one piece and everyones happy. Top work. Enjoy.

My kids all learnt to Skateboard & ride by the age of 3. Believe me they were not the best by any means, but could skate, balance & stop! Without a fear.

Personally I would advocate riding a bike first and in my experience the way to teach children to ride is simple.

Get them a bike they can put their feet on the floor and hands can use the brakes & made of alloy! Why alloy, because they've got to push/pick it up and ride it around, Light weight is key to little peeps not getting tired.

Then find some open grassland with no trees or obstacles.

Like for us years ago, run along and push them. Off they go... If they lean to one side let the bike feel like it's going to fall so that they have to find the balance point, do not try and balance it for them. That's the part they are trying to learn in the brain. Look ahead, where they want to go.

When they have the push start, usually after 4,5,6 goes then start them off on the pedal start. The sooner the better. They have to do it.

Their strongest foot is put on the pedal at the 2 o'clock forward position and used to push off. By the end of the day they will have got it. It is not DNA or natural talent, it is about only giving them the right experience of riding.

Get them to use the brake to hold the bike when still for on a hill or leaning it at an angle when still. Then get them to practice stopping using the brake. Never go near roads until they can control the stopping.

The trouble with training wheels is it allows kids to ride a bike forwards by leaning it over and does nothing to teach the brain balance.

I have got all my friends kids to ride in one day, all be it they were 5yrs+ due to them having a lack of control built up from many reasons.

All sports carry a risk, so it's about minimising that risk.
@titletownjeff avatar
UTC

Addicted
1962 VBB
Joined: UTC
Posts: 527
Location: Green Bay
 
Addicted
@titletownjeff avatar
1962 VBB
Joined: UTC
Posts: 527
Location: Green Bay
UTC quote
I dig the Papa J sneaks
@llitten avatar
UTC

Hooked
GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 192
Location: Bradenton, Florida
 
Hooked
@llitten avatar
GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 192
Location: Bradenton, Florida
UTC quote
Maybe some of my questions would be better suited for a PM, but I shall ask here anyway...
Where do you get his gear from?
My three year old rides in Daddys side car rig. We've gotten her a full face helmet that fits. But weve been having difficulty finding the rest of the gear.

Do you know of any FL little kid groups/classes for learning how to ride?

Or did you do the teaching yourself?

If you ever have any desire to sell the little bike (once he needs a bigger one) I'd be very interested.

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