Modern Vespa

Hi MV,

Donatella is at 3,900 KM's and had her only oil change at 1,100. What is the recommended changes cycle? The "book recommends that the next full replacement of oil/filter is at 10,000km's Any suggestions?

Thanks

-JP

Except if you have mostly short trips where the engine and oil never warm up, stick to what the manual recommends.

I assume Piaggio have done more testing than we will ever know or care for and the oil analysis' that have come back from labs have supported this.

I know this is a contentious issue, but I have yet to see proof that more frequent oil changes are better for the engine.

Wait another 6,100 km - unless a year has passed since the last change. Though personally if it was due an 'annual' change I'd put it off until the start of winter, especially if you have an 'end' to your riding season.

Do you do your own oil changes, or do you take it in for service?

Not sure if you'd consider this 'proof' but I change the Mobil1 synthetic & K&N filter in my truck whenever it has a hint of getting dirty. It's worked well for me so far for the first 300,000 miles.

How do you know the oil is dirty?

This is a bit of an open-ended question, as "the book" is making a number of presumptions, namely, that you have used the recommended viscosity of oil, that you have used the correct amount of oil and that you regularly check the oil level, that you ride under what the manufacturer considers to be "normal riding conditions", etc.

The effects of aeration, shear, age-related loss of lubricity, unburnt hydrocarbons, and general adsorption properties all play a part.

There are generally two camps of thought on the oil change subject; those who feel that the shop is trying to sell them something that they don't need, and technicians who witness first-hand the effects of improper lubrication when an improperly maintained engine arrives in the shop.

I would ask myself this: In comparison to my $7000 scooter, is 2 quarts of oil and an oil filter expensive? Not comparatively. Is the cost of extending the maintenance period of my $7000 scooter beyond the recommended service guidelines potentially much greater? I would say yes.

There is a great deal of technical information that I have stored on my computer from previously researching this issue that I could bore you with for hours. My summation, though would be this: go by what the manufacturer recommends.

If the cost of servicing is the biggest issue, buy an oil pan, 24mm wrench and the oil and filter and do it yourself. It takes literally five minutes, and is the cheapest investment in longevity that you can make in your scooter.

It is like my Corvette. I do about 10,000 KM's per year. One oil change and that 6.0 liter is very happy. I check my GTS300ie oil today, Looked a bit dirty and showed no loss of level. I think I may do an oil change just to be on the safe side.

I've personally never heard anyone claim (but maybe you have) that more frequently-than-recommended oil changes are better, but certainly it's a better option than less frequently-than-recommended oil changes.

I'm wondering what the basis for that argument would be. Neurosis?

That, there, is the key my friend. Reasonable precaution to ensure optimum efficiency.

If you think it needs changed by the measurements of your personal riding style and conditions, and it's before Vespa's recommendation, no harm done.

If you don't think it needs changing, and you reach the specified interval and change the oil anyway, no harm done.

If you reach the specified interval and don't change it, can you in good conscience say "no harm done"?

What's the recommended interval on the Corvette, if you don't mind my asking?

If I stored my scoot for winter and I didn't put more than the recommended miles on it in a season. I'd do a full tune up with oil change and hook it up to a battery tender just b4 storage. That way in spring it's ready to rock n roll. I ride year round so I watch the clock. But that's just me being me

FWIW:

Engine oil is about 75% lubricant and about 25% additives. The additives address a variety of purposes - friction modifiers, detergents, suspension agents, viscosity modifiers, acid neutralizers, anti foaming agents and so on.

Oil should start to "look dirty". Among it's many intended purposes (via additives) is to remove particulate matter from surfaces and keep it in suspension. I'd be more worried about an oil formulation that stayed "clean looking" for an extended period.

Operators who change their oil based upon lab analysis generally find that oil remains chemically and physically capable of doing everything it needs to do longer than the vehicle manufacturer's recommended change interval. In short, the "schedule" is very conservative and skewed towards changing the oil well in advance of it's becoming ineffective in one or more of its intended purposes.

"Freshly added oil" does not necessarily do a better job than oil that isn't "fresh". Take acid neutralization, for example. That additive will be consumed based upon the amount of acid it addresses over time. Based on API specs, there is more total acid neutralization capability than needed for the recommended change interval. The immediate ability of this neutralizer to address acid is the same on day one as it is on day 180 or 5,00 miles. The only difference is how much more acid it can still neutralize. Only a lab can tell you that, but as I said, most operators find from lab results that their oil is fully suitable at the scheduled change limits.

I'd totally agree with that. Thus the safety in changing the oil at the recommended intervals: It's used as a base guideline for an acceptable balance between economy of service versus engine protection. The idea of changing the oil at the scheduled interval is to prevent running a lubricant which has passed its effective limit for lubricity before it reaches that point, preventing all sorts of related issues and extending vehicle service life.

Compare it to tyres: we all either know of someone who has, or have personally, ridden a tyre beyond the "acceptable wear markers". No one wants to replace a tyre that has "life left in it". The wear marks are placed there to warn us when a tyre has exceeded it's ability to provide the optimum amount of traction, water displacement, suspension cushion, etc. that was provided when it was new.

This doesn't mean if you ride a tyre 500 miles or even 1000 miles beyond the point of the wear marks having been reached that your scooter will spontaneously lose the ability to remain upright, any more than running 7500km on an oil change rather than 6000km means that your engine will seize up and explode into a fiery ball of death.

Maintenance, really, is maintaining the condition of your scooter. Preventative maintenance (tyres, oil changes, etc.) is simply preventing an issue before there is one.

That being said, my GT200 needed a front tyre and oil change about 1000 miles ago. Still, I'm alive to tell the tale...

Not to pick nits, but lubricity is just one concern. The likelihood of additives failing generally comes before a "lubricity" failure. As I noted, lubrication is just one of the tasks that engine oil and the additive package performs.

Some 15W-40 oil comparisons.

Interesting table - thanks.

This subject matter is broad. Personally I would change or have it changed. Your scooter is two years old. I assume you had the 600 mile oil change. So it has been about 18 months since the last change. If I don't meet the miles requirement for an oil change I change my oil every year. The Haynes mnaual says that Piaggio changed the recommendation to every 4,000 miles.

The original oil change spec was every 2,000 miles - when many Piaggio scoots had Honda engines, and there was no oil filter, just an oil screen.

Then they exclusively used their own engines with oil filters, and the interval became 4,000 miles.

Then they went to fuel injection, and changed the spec to every 6,000 miles.

The current Piaggio-specified GTS oil change interval is the first of 6,000 miles or annually. I'd take Piaggio's word over Haynes...

Of course not; I was simplifying for the sake of the conversation. Sorry if I was unclear in conveying that thought. Didn't fancy boring everyone with the finer details of oil composition.

Happy to have my nits picked.

+1

I've seen a couple of (car!) shows recently that clearly showed better performance after a service. Dyno test and 0-60. It was most dramatic in an old dunger that had not been well maintained, but still worked in a relatively new car.