Modern Vespa

Short story - kick start not engaging. Disconnected clutch cable, and kickstart does engage. (Won't start like that though.)

What's been done recently-
Changed oil - case seems to have been empty of oil before then. Briefly filled with cheap 30 to get it running, and today changed it out with Motul 710.
Tightened clutch cable and gear selectors - there was a lot of play in the gear selector, and clutch did not seem to engage without a pull all the way to the grips.
Had it running, even whipped around the block up until 4th gear before I tightened the cables. That was a few days ago. Today, got it into 1st, then it seemed to slip out of gear and kickstart would no longer engage. Kickstart does engage without clutch cable.

Any thoughts on what is going on?

Is it possible the clutch cable was too tight?
Is clutch dead? Hasn't even been touched so far as I know.
Other possibilities?

I'm voting cable is too tight. I'm not the most qualified on here, but I'd focus on one of two things first, make the bike pretty, or make the engine fire up. see if you can roll it back and forth a few feet and run through the gears. After that, play with the clutch cable tension and see if you can put it in gear, pull the lever and free up the back wheel. Then see if releasing the lever puts the reengages the drive on the back wheel. But none of that matters if the engine wont fire up. That's how I'd go about it.

This sounds good...

losen the clutch cable all the way.. then pull the clutch arm with your fingers until it stops.. you'll be pre-loading that spring on the clutch arm.. tighten the pinch bolt..

You want about 2mm of free-play in the clutch lever (on the headset) before you feel real tension..

Also, you may want to drain that oil out of your case.. and put 30w non detergent in.. 710 is for pre-mixing your gas with. it's NOT gear oil for you case.

ok I either miswrote that or grabbed the wrong bottle when I changed the oil. time for more cursing. And I'm outta beer!

Will try loosening the clutch cable

lol take it easy, don't break anything! let's hope you just mistyped.. but I'd double check..

Just drain out the oil and try again. I would say any residue left behind will be negligible. Im still jealous of that bike. I watched it for about two months.

couple of things...

1. when people say about 2mm play in the lever, is that the gap berween the lever support flange and the lever where the cable joins...or the movement of the lever backwards....just being pedantic

2. I strongly recommend the Voodoo bungy gear adjusting method. I just did it and as long as you keep good tension in the bungy, you dont have to do any other adjusting...is brilliant

If you haven't had a problem before, check that little brass bushing in the cover, it can flatten.

Dear Mr. Pedantic,

I'm not sure "People" say it.. but I do.. most probably have a lot more, but I don't like my scoots to be all floppy, sloppy, and loosey-goosey!

Yours truly,

Mr. Tightshift III Esq.

Do you even shift bro!

ahhh, another of lifes mystries revealed, thanks mr V

panchoboots, how much can you shift.....bro

Adjusting the clutch cable seems to have worked. Up into first no problem, second not engaging without a little wiggle. Might need to tighten that cable. To be honest, all the cables seemed loose when I picked this up - brakes, throttle, etc. anyhow, up and running again.

In surprise developments the taillight decided to start working, though no luck with the headlight. I had cleaned some contacts, so maybe that helped.

But in potentially worse news, when tinkering with the rear wheel off (new exhaust), I noticed the intake manifold was about to lose a bolt. Tightened it up, but also noticed some oily, gassy residue. Looks like it might be leaking from the cylinder base. I'm think there is a gasket there in need of replacement.

new ride
new issues

- check nuts and bolt for spec for the 1st 100 miles / 5 heat cycles is key. If oil drip remains you might have to do that gasket. If the head has a drip after you torque it to spec (evenly) then a head lap might be in order.
- exhaust slip joints always should have goo to make sure it is a perfect seal (ultra coper high temps is great)
- cables stretch a bit when new so they need to be adjusted as they age. You don't want any cable to be always under tension or they can fail or cause other issues = as you turn the headset the throttle might rise is one.
- if the clutch cable is too tight causing the clutch cover brass thimble to always be in contact with the center of the clutch this can cause it to deform fast. Then the rider tightens it again since they think it is too loose again. As you can see this gets worse until the brass part looks like a mushroom resulting is a clutch that is either always ON or OFF with no slip.
- leaks can look like they come from one area but due to the way they flow can come from strange places so clean it all up and check often to catch the drip when it is "young"

have fun

Still fussing with the clutch. Kicked over, then was slipping, then kicked over, now slipping again. Each time loosening the cable more. Finally just bump started to get a sense of how it was running after cleaning the carb, flushing the tank (May resort to replacing because of rust), replacing the exhaust.

From my phone I'll try and post some pics of the oil leak I see coming from either exhausting elbow, base of cylinder, or intake manifold. The intake and exhaust area looked the most wet, and these pics were taken before I cleaned and tighten all the bolts down.

Intake manifold pic

I would pull the cylinder and exhaust, clean up all the surfaces, replace the gaskets and use a little layer of Motoseal (Permatex) on all those surfaces.. if everything is flat you should have no leaks.

Thanks for the rec. the parts are on the shopping list.

Back to my original issue. The kickstart is still only half working. I have loosened the clutch cable to a point where I would say its slack. When I went out this evening, the kickstart lever slipped and went to the ground on the first try. On the second try, it caught and fired up, no problem. Went around the neighborhood, through all the gears with no real issues. Brought it home, let it sit, then try to kick it over again - not catching at all.

The spring on the kickstart is good, and the transmission cycles through the gears. What's the problem? Rebuild the clutch? Since I am going to be dropping the engine to replace some gaskets, would it worth the time and money to go through the clutch?

Wait, is it possibly the kickstart gear? Is there any easy way to diagnose whether slipping kickstart is clutch or kickstart gear?

you need to pop off the rear hub, clutch cover and check out the clutch condition
when you have done that report back

no need to talk about things until you do this
takes 10 mins

Didn't have a chance until today to get to the clutch. With the clutch cover off it wants to kick over, no slip. Which must mean it is a clutch problem, not kickstart gear, is that correct?

Here is a picture of the plunger. I can't find any images online to tell if this shows normal or too much wear. The part I can find on scootermercato doesn't look exactly the same as well.

The inside of the clutch is really dirty - old thick oil, even a little gritty.

I want to help. But this thread is just too too much.

I just completed a small frame engine. So it is fresh in my mind. But there doesn't seem to be a way the clutch cover can compress the clutch, that is, like it can happen on a large frame engine. At least, as long as it has been installed correctly.

If you haven't ordered your parts yet, go ahead and order the plunger and kicks start gear as well. Actually, order two of everything.

I double checked this too. Without the clutch cover off, it wants to kick over (nearly started actually, which could've gotten messy). With the cover on, slips. Maybe there is just enough wear or something on that plunger? I did find the correct part on scootersoriginali

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Clutch-Misc-Parts/78453
http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/SmallFrame2?cs=2

not deformed but doesn't have 2 tabs like mine does where it fits into the cover

this looks like you brass bit (below)
if it is a correct part for your smafframe then it is is right... if it is a wrong part that might be the issue = too long
http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/push+rod+kit+clutch+_87011000

exploded diagram's are nice:
http://www.sip-scootershop.com/main/service/PartsCataloguesDetails.aspx?table=fe2e1b94-8a3d-43ac-8d18-93128c2f65a1

that brass bit compressed the clutch = slippage = no start
with the cover off the clutch can "expand" fully = corks lock = kickstart works

I don't know what the clutch cover looks like on a small frame, but is it possible that the arm it self is stuck? See if it will kick over with out the brass piece in place. I wouldn't doubt that the brass plunger is home made and just doesn't fit right. The gap doesn't look wide enough to me.

The arms appears to work just fine, and looks to be in good condition. I did also notice that the plunger is not seating correctly each time it actuates. There is a little half circle indent in the cover, near the arm where the corresponding brass fits, and the plunger appears to catch there. (This probably makes no sense if you haven't seen it.) I'll check the cover on without the plunger! just in case.

Hey it's just about beer thirty. Cheers, thanks for the help.

It's been that all day. Just something to consider, with out that plunger, its like not having a clutch. You can squeeze that lever all you want, but if its in gear, you will be delivering power to the rear wheel. Of course, neutral is still neutral. I'm ready to see this bike rolling. I was watching that bike pretty hard before you bought it.

Oh it's been rolling when the kickstart decides not to be slippery. A fun ride. Ran it up to 40mph, without plates, on my way to get a title. The DMV loved it, and when they wanted to verify the short VIN, they looked it up on scooterhelp!

They gave you a title? I'm kind of jealous. Alabama doesn't give titles for anything older than 79. Wish my sprint had one, even though its a bodge.

If you don't have experience with this sort of thing, why would you comment?

"Some knowledge is just useless."


There ya go. Put that in your P200 and smoke it.

I will go to my dwelling at once and set my bike at a high idle. Surely I have angered the vespa gods and I must offer a burning sacrifice of 2T Premix

Ya clean up your engine and get some new gaskets for the intake manifold, cylinder base and exhaust manifold.

Apply some permatex Ultra grey or honda/yamabond to seal things up and use the copper rtv on exhaust stub for its higher temperature tolerance. Some people like hylomar all around, I typically use this under the cylinder head (and as suggested, lap it to insure a flat surface). Pay attention to the sealant cure times or else you'll be back at it.

My guess your corks on the plates are disintegrated from sitting around. Rebuild the clutch and prior to installing new corks, soak them over night in the detergent free SAE 30wt oil (same stuff for your gear oil). You could also give the steel plates a light buff to knock out any glaze and heck pick up a new clutch spring while things are opened up.

I doubt that the plunger and pressure plate are worn out but it's not to expensive to start with a new pair. Make sure you get the one arm brass plunger, because some have two and also pick up a new retaining clip.

Oh ya while the engine is down, clean the hub and give it a light sand, same with the brake shoes and followed by a good rinse of brake cleaner.

*caveat - Since your removing the carb and intake, don't forget that damn felt washer in the sleeve. Grease it well before placing it back, and seal up the slots on the carb/collar clamp thing with either hylomar or some rtv to prevent any air leaks.

Good luck.

Thanks folks for all the help on the clutch and leak problems above. Both appear to now be resolved.

First, the exhaust manifold was clearly leaking oil; I was certain once I swung the engine down and removed the manifold. Installed new gaskets, some copper sealant, and did the same to the intake manifold (along with a new felt packing). It appears those leaks are gone.

The clutch was still a mystery. After several experiments, it was clear the kickstart would slip with the clutch cover on, even with no clutch cable connected. With the cover on, but no brass plunger, the kickstart would not slip. So my solution was to file the brass plunger down (I had purchased a new one). I filed it so basically the plunger was flush with its seat in the clutch cover, instead of sticking out roughly 1/8". That did the trick, it starts and shifts as normal now.

I did not rebuild the clutch, but that will definitely be in my future.

I recall the brass plunger on my smallframe sat flush with its housing when fully retracted