Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:33 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GT 2.4
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 7602
Location: NWAOK
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
GT 2.4
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 7602
Location: NWAOK
Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:33 am linkquote
seamus26 wrote:
It is based on the Honda GY6 tried and true platform, so when it comes to modifications and upgrades ... again, it's very affordable.

Thoughts?
This one never gets old. Honda, like Piaggio, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kymco, SYM, PGO, QJ, and pretty much every major manufacturer of motorcycles and scooters in the world, makes parts manuals and repair manuals for all the engines and vehicles they make. Find the Honda parts manual for the GY6.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:22 pm

Hooked
Currently Vespaless
Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
Location: Toronto
 
Hooked
Currently Vespaless
Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
Location: Toronto
Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:22 pm linkquote
A lot to digest here so I'm just going to throw in.

"Investment" is entirely the wrong term to be using here. An investment is an item you purchase in the hopes of generating income or capital appreciation. There is no way that a Chinese scooter, a Vespa or any scooter can be termed an investment. Even if you buy a rare barn find with all the work and money you put into it, you're better off working for minimum wage.

Classic cars, classic motorcycles, classic scooters are not an investment. Sure, there are stories of guys buying muscle cars in the 1980s and selling them for big dollars in the 2000s. But, remember he had to store and maintain that thing for 20+ years.

It seems to me you're looking for cheap transportation. The cheapest possible way to get from point A to point B. I appreciate that. If that's the case, a Vespa is not even remotely a candidate. I would buy a cheap, old Honda Elite. Or a cheap new Sym. The Symba 100 gets about 100 mpg.

Now I'm outta here. I'm going to rip around the neighbourhood in my unpractical PX150. I hope it starts.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:51 pm

Hooked
GTV300ie
Joined: 09 Jul 2014
Posts: 312
Location: Raleigh NC
 
Hooked
GTV300ie
Joined: 09 Jul 2014
Posts: 312
Location: Raleigh NC
Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:51 pm linkquote
I owned a 50cc Honda in the eighties, many "real" MC's, and bought a cheap used Chinese scooter to play with. Then I decided I'm too old and crippled to enjoy my big bikes anymore and wanted a "cool" scooter. Bought a used 2012 GTV300ie and am in heaven. I haven't enjoyed a two wheeler this much since my first RZ350 in 1984. It's the cache a Vespa has and the "real" bike feel. I ride it to the same biker bars I went to when I had my soft tail.

There is no good reason to buy a Vespa over say a Honda except that "feeling" a Vespa translates to the rider.

The only real Porsche is a 911 and the only real scooter is a Vespa
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:04 pm

Hooked
Aprilia Sportcity 125, Buddy St. Tropez 150
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Posts: 164
Location: Edmond, OK
 
Hooked
Aprilia Sportcity 125, Buddy St. Tropez 150
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Posts: 164
Location: Edmond, OK
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:04 pm linkquote
CDRPierce wrote:
The only real Porsche is a 911 and the only real scooter is a Vespa
This man would disagree...



Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:11 pm

Hooked
GTV300ie
Joined: 09 Jul 2014
Posts: 312
Location: Raleigh NC
 
Hooked
GTV300ie
Joined: 09 Jul 2014
Posts: 312
Location: Raleigh NC
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:11 pm linkquote
He would?



Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:35 pm

Hooked
Aprilia Sportcity 125, Buddy St. Tropez 150
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Posts: 164
Location: Edmond, OK
 
Hooked
Aprilia Sportcity 125, Buddy St. Tropez 150
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Posts: 164
Location: Edmond, OK
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:35 pm linkquote
That's no 911
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:36 pm

Molto Verboso
2009 Vespa LX150ie, 2007 GTS250ie, 1982 Honda CB900F, 1989 BMW K100RS
Joined: 01 Apr 2011
Posts: 1075
Location: Sydney Australia
 
Molto Verboso
2009 Vespa LX150ie, 2007 GTS250ie, 1982 Honda CB900F, 1989 BMW K100RS
Joined: 01 Apr 2011
Posts: 1075
Location: Sydney Australia
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:36 pm linkquote
There are quite a few scooters where I live. What stands out with the Chinese scooters Vs Vespa is what they look like when they are a few years old. The plastic panels etc of the Chinese scooters tend to fade quickly and the metal parts tend to rust. The Vespas tend to hold up to the sun and weather much better.

You have stated that you have the Chinese 150 and want to keep it. I would suggest looking at a Vespa GTS 250 or 300 as your additional scooter. I think it would be much better suited to a 20 mile commute, while still being fun to ride and having that Vespa appeal you are looking for.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:39 pm

Ossessionato
Black Beater SH150i(38,000)Red Devil SH150i (2000)
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2949
Location: Orange Park Florida
 
Ossessionato
Black Beater SH150i(38,000)Red Devil SH150i (2000)
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2949
Location: Orange Park Florida
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:39 pm linkquote
Let's think outside the box. Join a Chinese scooter forum, ask them the same question and get back to us with the results.
Red pill or blue pill
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:40 pm

Hooked
GTV300ie
Joined: 09 Jul 2014
Posts: 312
Location: Raleigh NC
 
Hooked
GTV300ie
Joined: 09 Jul 2014
Posts: 312
Location: Raleigh NC
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:40 pm linkquote
jrstone wrote:
That's no 911
It's the 911's grandfather so it's related. 928,944, boxster ect. Ain't.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:59 pm

Hooked
Aprilia Sportcity 125, Buddy St. Tropez 150
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Posts: 164
Location: Edmond, OK
 
Hooked
Aprilia Sportcity 125, Buddy St. Tropez 150
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Posts: 164
Location: Edmond, OK
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:59 pm linkquote
CDRPierce wrote:
jrstone wrote:
That's no 911
It's the 911's grandfather so it's related. 928,944, boxster ect. Ain't.
Nope. Spyder was mid-engined. Closer relative to the Boxster. Speedster would be the grandfather of the 911.

Sorry OP. /threadjack
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:59 pm

Member
Vespa ET4
Joined: 28 Jul 2014
Posts: 40
Location: Santa Barbara
 
Member
Vespa ET4
Joined: 28 Jul 2014
Posts: 40
Location: Santa Barbara
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:59 pm linkquote
I am not an expert and I do not know how to work on motorcycles (or anything mechanical).

I have had a Yamaha 50cc 2 stroke, a Honda Elite 4 stroke and two Vespa ET4s. I also had a Honda Rebel 250 motorcycle.

I have never even seen a Chinese scooter so I have no idea. I have heard that they break down often. Since I'm not handy I wouldn't want something that would break down.

I had 10,000 miles on my first Vespa before I totaled it. My current one has almost 30,000 miles. I never had to do any repairs to either of them other than general maintenance. So that's 40K miles of only general maintenance. The downside is that this general maintenance was EXPENSIVE!!!

My Yamaha was great but had a top speed of only 35mph. What a pain. But I could pick it up and put it into my VW Van to take it to the shop.

My Elite had a top speed of 55mph but would crap out a lot and not be able to maintain this speed very long. But it was cheap and I could actually change the oil myself.

My Vespas both have a top speed around 60. It's a decent enough top speed to get me around, even on highways.

My Honda Rebel was just to big. I felt like I would drop it trying to push it around in parking lots. It was uncomfortable to sit on the way it leaned back. Going fast blasted me so hard I felt I could not keep my head down.

The best thing about my Vespa other than reliability has been getting the wave from other Vespa riders and from Harley riders. Sounds ridiculous but it feels great to be at the pinnacle of the motorcycle food chain. It's also fun to get so many "cute scooter" comments from people and so many women have asked me millions of questions about riding a scooter because it's so damn cute it makes them want one, too.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:07 pm

Hooked
GTV300ie
Joined: 09 Jul 2014
Posts: 312
Location: Raleigh NC
 
Hooked
GTV300ie
Joined: 09 Jul 2014
Posts: 312
Location: Raleigh NC
Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:07 pm linkquote
sbhikes wrote:
The best thing about my Vespa other than reliability has been getting the wave from other Vespa riders and from Harley riders. Sounds ridiculous but it feels great to be at the pinnacle of the motorcycle food chain. It's also fun to get so many "cute scooter" comments from people and so many women have asked me millions of questions about riding a scooter because it's so damn cute it makes them want one, too.
What he said
Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:22 pm

Enthusiast
2005 GT200 2006 GT200
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 93
Location: SW TN.
 
Enthusiast
2005 GT200 2006 GT200
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 93
Location: SW TN.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:22 pm linkquote
I'm new to scoots, so I looked at everything out there and read everything I could. Among china scoots ZNEN is the leader. The quality there seems to be among the best coming out of China. Not saying it is on par with the Taiwan makers though, but closer than many others.
As far as dealers go, china scoot dealers in general don't stay in business very long. Unless they also carry some of the Taiwan brands too. The parts problem isn't necessarily engine parts related, more about scooter specific parts like body panels or cables.

After my research, I chose used Vespa for several different reasons that I felt were important. To each their own.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:32 pm

Member
Vespa ET4
Joined: 28 Jul 2014
Posts: 40
Location: Santa Barbara
 
Member
Vespa ET4
Joined: 28 Jul 2014
Posts: 40
Location: Santa Barbara
Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:32 pm linkquote
CDRPierce wrote:
sbhikes wrote:
The best thing about my Vespa other than reliability has been getting the wave from other Vespa riders and from Harley riders. Sounds ridiculous but it feels great to be at the pinnacle of the motorcycle food chain. It's also fun to get so many "cute scooter" comments from people and so many women have asked me millions of questions about riding a scooter because it's so damn cute it makes them want one, too.
What he said
She. I guess I should add that to the signature at the bottom.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:22 pm

Hooked
1983 PX 200E Elestart, 1984 50S - plus 1959 Velosolex 1700, 1963 Jawa-CZ 'armadni, 1970 Yamaha YB50 cafe racer, 1972 Honda CB 350 K4, 1979 Honda C50
Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 337
Location: Aotearoa
 
Hooked
1983 PX 200E Elestart, 1984 50S - plus 1959 Velosolex 1700, 1963 Jawa-CZ 'armadni, 1970 Yamaha YB50 cafe racer, 1972 Honda CB 350 K4, 1979 Honda C50
Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 337
Location: Aotearoa
Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:22 pm linkquote
Some interesting comments posted.

I work (as an adviser) to a scooter importer who has brought Chinese scooters into NZ for a number of years. As an aside, I've also done a lot of consultancy work with Chinese public and private sector organisations focused on exports over the last 20 years.

My first-hand experience with Chinese scooters are:

1. Overall quality can be quite variable, from shipment-to-shipment, even of the same model;
2. The quality of components can be, but not always, of poor quality. Items like plated trim, switchgear and body panels can be pretty bad, including the paint fade comment mentioned previously;
3. Usually, Chinese scoots are pretty good, mechanically. Castings are of excellent quality and are based on already proven designs, although, on occasion, the electrics remind me of something provided by that Prince of Darkness, Joseph Lucas & Co of the UK;
4. Some manufacturers, e.g. Hong Kong's quaintly-named Giantco, produce machines of amazing reliability out of said cheap components. Sachs' Amici scooter's another that seems to be bulletproof, with few, if any problems;
5. The Chinese focus on output over quality assurance and after-sales service. This is very reminiscent of what US automakers were getting away with back in the mid-1950s (I'm old enough to remember). Also note that, in China, labor rates are low when it comes to repairs so it seems to be a non-issue to offer real after-sales service in export markets like NZ and elsewhere;
6. A lot of Japanese and Taiwanese brands are now made in China, at least the smaller capacity scoots are, as are the likes of Piaggio's Zip, BTW.

With a Vespa, one gets:
1. A premium, iconic brand;
2. Better quality materials;
3. Hopefully, better after-sales service and parts;
4. Better resale value.

I hope that's of value, Seamus. Welcome to the forum...

Also, I agree with snowrider's definition of what an 'investment' is.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:07 pm

Hooked
2007 GT200
Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Posts: 304
Location: Belleville, IL / Croydon, UK and points in between
 
Hooked
2007 GT200
Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Posts: 304
Location: Belleville, IL / Croydon, UK and points in between
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:07 pm linkquote
Having been a scooter mechanic for many years, I have ridden and seen my fair share of the good and bad of the scooter world. My observations and experiences have led me to draw a simple conclusion, summed up in one question that I like to pose to people when I am asked about Chinese scooters:

What kind of scooters do you think the common people generally ride in China?

Between China, India, Vietnam and Thailand, we have accounted for 2 billion people, over one quarter of the entire planet's population, most of whom use PTW's as their sole means of transport. Most of these riders don't have access to what we would consider in the Western world to be modern or even adequate repair facilities, and yet they continue to maintain their mobility. Why do we find it so difficult to keep these same vehicles running here?

There is no question that a Vespa is a machine of superior quality compared to a Moto Fino or Sun L. But to say that they are impossible to maintain or extract longevity from is to overstate in my opinion. There are more than a few Southeast Asian scooters that I would be happy to own, but as transportation rather than a plush luxury.

Apart from Vespas, I am an avid Royal Enfield rider. People make the same claim regarding Enfield, that they are virtually un-rideable. Yet, hundreds of millions of people ride them daily in other parts of the world and are pleased with the results.

For many Chinese scooters, as with Royal Enfield, there is nothing so complex regarding repairs that I would be quite happy to ride cross country with a tool kit comprised of two screwdrivers, an adjustable spanner, a roll of duct tape, a wooden mallet and a shoe. I have seen an Enfield run on so many things besides petrol that you would not believe. I also have a customer with a Chinese scooter that was in two weeks ago for a 24,000 mile service.

Maintenance and appreciation of these vehicles' limitations will provide comparable longevity in many instances. But a $900 Chinese scooter from Costco will never be as plush or luxurious as a GTS, and for many riders, that is unacceptable when purchasing a scooter for recreational value.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:08 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 12784
Location: Oregon City, OR
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 12784
Location: Oregon City, OR
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:08 pm linkquote
Beats Walkin wrote:
6. A lot of Japanese and Taiwanese brands are now made in China, at least the smaller capacity scoots are, as are the likes of Piaggio's Zip, BTW.
Indeed. A number of the smaller Piaggios and some of the Kymcos and Syms are built in China. The problem is not where they were built, but the level of quality control applied in the process. With the "China scooter" brands, the answer seems to be very little.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:20 pm

Hooked
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 146
Location: BayArea
 
Hooked
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 146
Location: BayArea
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:20 pm linkquote
Having worked as the head mechanic at a chinese scooter shop that was partly owned by the largest chinese scoot importer on the west coast for three years, I've just about seen/fixed/etc every brand of chinese scooters and most models from the last decade. There really isn't a better brand chinese scooter over another they are all just about the same...but some models are a tad bit better then others, and some models are sometimes better or worse at different times of import. There is actually only a few chinese manufactures of chinese scoots. So all the dozens of different brands you see are only really made by a few companies. There is no consistency except that the "quality" is low. The scoots that were ridden hard lasted no more then a few thousand miles, while the ones that were taken it easy lasted longer.

The one thing that both vespa and any chinese brand scooter have in common is that they are expensive to own. Vespas you mostly pay it up front, chinese scoots you will pay for it in the long run in the form of miles driven.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:24 pm

Hooked
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 146
Location: BayArea
 
Hooked
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 146
Location: BayArea
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:24 pm linkquote
Dooglas wrote:
Beats Walkin wrote:
6. A lot of Japanese and Taiwanese brands are now made in China, at least the smaller capacity scoots are, as are the likes of Piaggio's Zip, BTW.
Indeed. A number of the smaller Piaggios and some of the Kymcos and Syms are built in China. The problem is not where they were built, but the level of quality control applied in the process. With the "China scooter" brands, the answer seems to be very little.
That's right. It is not where it is built but who builds it and how it is made. A Honda car made in the USA is still made by Honda not GM for Ford. A Honda scoot made in China is made by Honda. There are specifications that have to be meet. If it is not made by the parent company the out sourced company still needs to meet specifications, case in point of the BMW scoot that is made by Kymco for BMW. Kymco has to meet the specifications set by BMW.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:40 pm

Molto Verboso
many
Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: NY
 
Molto Verboso
many
Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: NY
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:40 pm linkquote
Quote:
Okay now you have thrown me for a loop...... And I am sure someone else is thinking the same. I say this in good fun
You drive a Volvo and a Porsche and you bought a Chinese scooter for cost savings?
I had this same question from the beginning. But you did give
a good explanation.

I think you know what you want, you know your own expenses,
and you sound fairly secure in your choices. A vespa is a luxury
item for many. If you are looking at the NET cost including service,
cost of scooter, gas prices, resale etc than a vespa is still a good choice,
but it probably will take you longer to realize the savings.
My modern scooter is a 2007 and it still rides like the day I
bought it. My 50 year old scooters are money pits, but I love them.

I don't ride for the gas savings, I love to ride scooters. But I do
understand the utilitarian use of a scooter as a cost saving vehicle.
Sometimes they can be both.


Enjoy the ride!


Rob
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:48 pm

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22391
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 22391
Location: Nashville, Indiana
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:48 pm linkquote
DaBinChe wrote:
Having worked as the head mechanic at a chinese scooter shop that was partly owned by the largest chinese scoot importer on the west coast for three years, I've just about seen/fixed/etc every brand of chinese scooters and most models from the last decade. There really isn't a better brand chinese scooter over another they are all just about the same...but some models are a tad bit better then others, and some models are sometimes better or worse at different times of import. There is actually only a few chinese manufactures of chinese scoots. So all the dozens of different brands you see are only really made by a few companies. There is no consistency except that the "quality" is low. The scoots that were ridden hard lasted no more then a few thousand miles, while the ones that were taken it easy lasted longer.

The one thing that both vespa and any chinese brand scooter have in common is that they are expensive to own. Vespas you mostly pay it up front, chinese scoots you will pay for it in the long run in the form of miles driven.
Great post. Not because I have the knowledge to concur but because you have knowledge on the topic.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:15 pm

Ossessionato
MP3 500 - GTV250
Joined: 07 Jul 2010
Posts: 2970
Location: Near Pittsburgh
 
Ossessionato
MP3 500 - GTV250
Joined: 07 Jul 2010
Posts: 2970
Location: Near Pittsburgh
Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:15 pm linkquote
You have to figure that the CS (Chinese Scooters) are made with cheaper labor and cheaper, lower quality parts/materials. You've already assessed the difference in quality. You're asking "Is the quality difference worth the cost difference?" Only you can answer that one ... for you.

But when you talk about buying a Vespa, an expensive new one or a twenty plus year old one are not the only options. You can find three to five year old, low milage Vespas at reasonable prices. In that case, you can compare the quality and enjoyment difference between a $1500 CS and a $3000 Vespa. It's a more realistic comparison and you can answer your question for yourself.

By the way, you have found a very rare scooter dealer.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:49 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GT 2.4
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 7602
Location: NWAOK
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
GT 2.4
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 7602
Location: NWAOK
Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:49 pm linkquote
britishbyproxy wrote:
Having been a scooter mechanic for many years, I have ridden and seen my fair share of the good and bad of the scooter world. My observations and experiences have led me to draw a simple conclusion, summed up in one question that I like to pose to people when I am asked about Chinese scooters:

What kind of scooters do you think the common people generally ride in China?

In most countries that depend on their scooters for transportation, companies like Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki have found effective ways to compete pricewise with the cheaper chinese and homegrown brands. There are also good Chinese brands, like CFMoto, Q-link, and Keeway, that sell well in Asia, South America, and Europe. All the good Chinese brands have bailed on the US because they are getting more marketshare in other couintries and the mindset here is that they're all the same and you might as well buy the cheapest you can. No matter how much you read about how great Chinese scooters are now, or that one guiy who rode one a long way, the reality is that more often than not, they don't make it to 5000 miles without requiring major repairs. A guy brought one in the other day with 18 miles on it that had an electrical issue. even though it had a fuse, putting the battery in it melted the wiring harness. The Znen, Bashan, Tao Tao, Jonway, Roketa etc bikes that come to the US are of an extremely low quality compared to what they are capable of making and do so for other manufacturers. Jonway makes Peugeot and Kriedler scooters. They are a far cry in quality from the VIP Future Champion that Scooter Depot drops off at your door for $600. When Chinese scooters first hit the US, there were some very good ones, that were typical of what they were building for the home market, but nobody knew enough about them to keep them running, then the market went wild and a lot of brands tried to establish in the US, including the good ones I' mention above, but now, starting with the 2010 stiffening of EPA regs on small engines, and moreso over the last two years, the supply chain has gotten smaller and smaller and there are a few factories making the same cheap scooters for anyone who wants a container. I can't think of a single Chinese brand that sells their product in the US anymore, so we're getting crap built to a pricepoint, and not a quality standard. Unlike in the US and most countries, when parts don't pass QA in one company, they are marked down and sold to another manufacturer. These are the parts that end up in US bound scooters.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:10 pm

Addicted
Joined: 21 Apr 2014
Posts: 538

 
Addicted
Joined: 21 Apr 2014
Posts: 538

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:10 pm linkquote
Motovista wrote:
The Znen, Bashan, Tao Tao, Jonway, Roketa etc bikes that come to the US are of an extremely low quality compared to what they are capable of making and do so for other manufacturers.
Not seeing much negative feedback on the Bintelli (Znen) Facebook page . . but that brand is dealer only, as compared to Motorino and BMS online Znen variations.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:49 pm

Moderator
2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 12956
Location: Paros Island, Greece
 
Moderator
2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 12956
Location: Paros Island, Greece
Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:49 pm linkquote
Motovista wrote:
There are also good Chinese brands, like CFMoto, Q-link, and Keeway, that sell well in Asia, South America, and Europe. (emphasis added)
Could you provide an industry source for these brands "selling well" in Europe? A while back you mentioned QJ (Keeway in Europe) as being in the "top 10" in sales in Italy, which is correct, but since they only sold 1008 units in 2012, for example, or 0.8% of the Italian market, very misleading. ACEM does not report one mainland Chinese brand in the "top 10" models in any EU country in 2013.



CFMoto primarily sells ATVs in Europe. Their attempts at scooters fell flat on its face, and they are down to one scooter model in the EU.

On the other hand, Taiwanese brands Kymco and SYM could be described as "selling well" in Europe.
Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:08 pm

Hooked
PX 225, SS 180, 90SS
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 172
Location: New Zealand
 
Hooked
PX 225, SS 180, 90SS
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 172
Location: New Zealand
Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:08 pm linkquote
jrstone wrote:
I have a friend who has always had motorcycles and scooters. A couple years ago, after selling both scooters he had, he decided he needed a scooter again. He spent $800 on a new Chinese scooter and, for the price, it was fine. Sure it squeaked and rattled a little bit and he had to go over it to make sure EVERY nut and bolt were tight (they weren't). The biggest problem was that he didn't love it. As a machine, it was ok... but that's all it would ever be. He ended up selling it and buying a Stella. In the end, the Stella may not be any more reliable, but it definitely has a soul.

Welcome, and nice 928 by the way. I've lusted after one of those since before I knew what lust was.
I think you've nailed it jrstone. People don't buy a Vespa (or Stella) because it's a cheap way to get to work- it's about soul. We buy them because they look good, feel good, make us smile and they have a heritage. Chinese scooters can be a reasonable cheap (and sometimes reliable)form of transport but I have never heard anyone describe them as having soul.
Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:20 am

Hooked
Currently Vespaless
Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
Location: Toronto
 
Hooked
Currently Vespaless
Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
Location: Toronto
Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:20 am linkquote
mbnz77 wrote:
jrstone wrote:
I have a friend who has always had motorcycles and scooters. A couple years ago, after selling both scooters he had, he decided he needed a scooter again. He spent $800 on a new Chinese scooter and, for the price, it was fine. Sure it squeaked and rattled a little bit and he had to go over it to make sure EVERY nut and bolt were tight (they weren't). The biggest problem was that he didn't love it. As a machine, it was ok... but that's all it would ever be. He ended up selling it and buying a Stella. In the end, the Stella may not be any more reliable, but it definitely has a soul.

Welcome, and nice 928 by the way. I've lusted after one of those since before I knew what lust was.
I think you've nailed it jrstone. People don't buy a Vespa (or Stella) because it's a cheap way to get to work- it's about soul. We buy them because they look good, feel good, make us smile and they have a heritage. Chinese scooters can be a reasonable cheap (and sometimes reliable)form of transport but I have never heard anyone describe them as having soul.
To summarize the feelings of all Vespisti:

Life is too short to ride Chinese shit.
Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:28 am

Molto Verboso
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 1518
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
 
Molto Verboso
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 1518
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:28 am linkquote
jrstone wrote:
I have a friend who has always had motorcycles and scooters. A couple years ago, after selling both scooters he had, he decided he needed a scooter again. He spent $800 on a new Chinese scooter and, for the price, it was fine. Sure it squeaked and rattled a little bit and he had to go over it to make sure EVERY nut and bolt were tight (they weren't). The biggest problem was that he didn't love it. As a machine, it was ok... but that's all it would ever be. He ended up selling it and buying a Stella. In the end, the Stella may not be any more reliable, but it definitely has a soul.

Welcome, and nice 928 by the way. I've lusted after one of those since before I knew what lust was.
I know that feeling. VWers call it Fahrvergn├╝gen.


It may come down to that. Most of my vehicles I have had a very good relationship with, and if you don't have that connection it becomes just transportation.

I'll keep you all posted ...
Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:44 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8765
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8765
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:44 am linkquote
seamus26 wrote:
I don't plan on making money, but I was looking at a way to save gas money. If I had to pay $5K to save gas, the payoff would be a lot further out. For example, my neighbor drives a Chevy Volt. He is saving money hand over fist, but because of the initial cost his payback is out a good ten years. "Investment" is a pretty broad term. Cheap and reliable was what I was shooting for, although I know they don't always go hand in hand.
No, only two definitions:
Investment is time, energy, or matter spent in the hope of future benefits actualized within a specified date or time frame. Investment has different meanings in economics and finance.

In economics, investment is the accumulation of newly produced physical entities, such as factories, machinery, houses, and goods inventories.

In finance, investment is putting money into an asset with the expectation of capital appreciation, dividends, and/or interest earnings. This may or may not be backed by research and analysis. Most or all forms of investment involve some form of risk, such as investment in equities, property, and even fixed interest securities which are subject, among other things, to inflation risk. It is indispensable for project investors to identify and manage the risks related to the investment.

I only point this out because it drove me crazy as a cars salesman when management would want us to push what a good "Investment " a new car would be and I and stand up and say a car is not an investment and get a dirty look
Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:46 am

Molto Verboso
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 1518
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
 
Molto Verboso
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 1518
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:46 am linkquote
tortoise wrote:
Motovista wrote:
The Znen, Bashan, Tao Tao, Jonway, Roketa etc bikes that come to the US are of an extremely low quality compared to what they are capable of making and do so for other manufacturers.
Not seeing much negative feedback on the Bintelli (Znen) Facebook page . . but that brand is dealer only, as compared to Motorino and BMS online Znen variations.
Our GR dealer sells almost exclusively ZNEN and Bintelli. He spent several years researching (and selling) other brands until he decided that these were "best of the best" of the Chinese scoots. ZNEN actually builds for several other companies, so if it has the ZNEN label, it is their best product, not factory 2nds, at least that's my understanding.

I don't have time to answer everyone's comment individually, but thanks to everyone for the overwhelmingly positive feedback and especially for the knowledge that so many of you bring to the topic. I am taking it all in.
Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:49 am

Molto Verboso
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 1518
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
 
Molto Verboso
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 1518
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:49 am linkquote
WEB-Tech wrote:
No, only two definitions:
Investment is time, energy, or matter spent in the hope of future benefits actualized within a specified date or time frame. Investment has different meanings in economics and finance.

In economics, investment is the accumulation of newly produced physical entities, such as factories, machinery, houses, and goods inventories.

In finance, investment is putting money into an asset with the expectation of capital appreciation, dividends, and/or interest earnings. This may or may not be backed by research and analysis. Most or all forms of investment involve some form of risk, such as investment in equities, property, and even fixed interest securities which are subject, among other things, to inflation risk. It is indispensable for project investors to identify and manage the risks related to the investment.

I only point this out because it drove me crazy as a cars salesman when management would want us to push what a good "Investment " a new car would be and I and stand up and say a car is not an investment and get a dirty look
That. I guess when I said investment, that's more what I was leaning toward. My investment was the purchase of a product that would eventually allow me to reap benefits in the form of fuel savings. Once it hits that point where it has paid for the initial investment, everything else is dollars back in my pocket.

And risk? I bought a Chinese scooter ... 8)
Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:13 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8765
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8765
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:13 am linkquote
seamus26 wrote:
WEB-Tech wrote:
No, only two definitions:
Investment is time, energy, or matter spent in the hope of future benefits actualized within a specified date or time frame. Investment has different meanings in economics and finance.

In economics, investment is the accumulation of newly produced physical entities, such as factories, machinery, houses, and goods inventories.

In finance, investment is putting money into an asset with the expectation of capital appreciation, dividends, and/or interest earnings. This may or may not be backed by research and analysis. Most or all forms of investment involve some form of risk, such as investment in equities, property, and even fixed interest securities which are subject, among other things, to inflation risk. It is indispensable for project investors to identify and manage the risks related to the investment.

I only point this out because it drove me crazy as a cars salesman when management would want us to push what a good "Investment " a new car would be and I and stand up and say a car is not an investment and get a dirty look
That. I guess when I said investment, that's more what I was leaning toward. My investment was the purchase of a product that would eventually allow me to reap benefits in the form of fuel savings. Once it hits that point where it has paid for the initial investment, everything else is dollars back in my pocket.

And risk? I bought a Chinese scooter ... 8)
Great thought but rarely happens. Between insurance, belts, tires and other maintenance, your savings are gone and even higher in most cases.
I drive a F250 Super Duty as my other vehicle and saving is small if any.
Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:17 am

Ossessionato
2009 MP3 500 - The Iridescent Chameleon, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125, 2016 Indian Scout Sixty
Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Posts: 2702
Location: Geneseo, IL (Quad City area)
 
Ossessionato
2009 MP3 500 - The Iridescent Chameleon, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125, 2016 Indian Scout Sixty
Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Posts: 2702
Location: Geneseo, IL (Quad City area)
Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:17 am linkquote
WEB-Tech wrote:
Great thought but rarely happens. Between insurance, belts, tires and other maintenance, your savings are gone and even higher in most cases.
I drive a F250 Super Duty as my other vehicle and saving is small if any.
But which do you enjoy more? There isn't a way to assign a monetary value to happiness...
Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:41 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8765
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8765
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:41 am linkquote
CubsKing99 wrote:
WEB-Tech wrote:
Great thought but rarely happens. Between insurance, belts, tires and other maintenance, your savings are gone and even higher in most cases.
I drive a F250 Super Duty as my other vehicle and saving is small if any.
But which do you enjoy more? There isn't a way to assign a monetary value to happiness...
Both, Love my Truck as much as the MP3.
MP3 would be sold before the truck.
Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:08 am

Hooked
Currently Vespaless
Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
Location: Toronto
 
Hooked
Currently Vespaless
Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 277
Location: Toronto
Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:08 am linkquote
CubsKing99 wrote:
WEB-Tech wrote:
Great thought but rarely happens. Between insurance, belts, tires and other maintenance, your savings are gone and even higher in most cases.
I drive a F250 Super Duty as my other vehicle and saving is small if any.
But which do you enjoy more? There isn't a way to assign a monetary value to happiness...
An economist would beg to differ:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1228323/Leading-economist-calculates-monetary-value-happiness.html
Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:48 am

Ossessionato
BV350, Primavera 150, Yamaha Zuma 125
Joined: 06 Jun 2013
Posts: 3680
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
BV350, Primavera 150, Yamaha Zuma 125
Joined: 06 Jun 2013
Posts: 3680
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:48 am linkquote
britishbyproxy wrote:
Between China, India, Vietnam and Thailand, we have accounted for 2 billion people, over one quarter of the entire planet's population, most of whom use PTW's as their sole means of transport. Most of these riders don't have access to what we would consider in the Western world to be modern or even adequate repair facilities, and yet they continue to maintain their mobility. Why do we find it so difficult to keep these same vehicles running here?
When I was in Shenzhen China I was fascinated by the number of scooters -- everywhere! Many of them were of the electric bicycle type.

The police rode around in golf carts, or two-up on a motorcycle. I suppose the higher-ups got a motorcycle to themselves and the lower ranks rode the back of the golf cart or a bicycle.

It appeared that people did most of their own maintenance, or brought their scooters to the neighborhood guy who fixes stuff. In the evening, on just about every block there was someone out on the sidewalk in front of their apartment working on their scooter.

I gained a lot of respect for Chinese scooters -- and scooterists -- on that trip. They made good use of the transportation they had.
Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:01 am

Ossessionato
2010 ThunderFly 190, 2007 250 GTS, 1980 P200E
Joined: 29 Apr 2011
Posts: 3114
Location: Springboro, OH
 
Ossessionato
2010 ThunderFly 190, 2007 250 GTS, 1980 P200E
Joined: 29 Apr 2011
Posts: 3114
Location: Springboro, OH
Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:01 am linkquote
Lots of info on Chinese scoots here, good and bad...

http://www.scootdawg.net/index.php
Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:05 am

Molto Verboso
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 1518
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
 
Molto Verboso
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 1518
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:05 am linkquote
CrazyCarl wrote:
Lots of info on Chinese scoots here, good and bad...

http://www.scootdawg.net/index.php
Yeah, you'll see me hanging out there a lot, too.
Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:15 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 12784
Location: Oregon City, OR
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 12784
Location: Oregon City, OR
Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:15 am linkquote
britishbyproxy wrote:
I am an avid Royal Enfield rider. People make the same claim regarding Enfield, that they are virtually un-rideable. Yet, hundreds of millions of people ride them daily in other parts of the world and are pleased with the results.
You got a little carried away with your numbers. Your point that many scooters and motorcycles ridden in Asia may not meet European and American expectations is certainly true, but the Enfield isn't the best example. It is not a big seller in Asia these days and enjoys its popularity in the US primarily because of it's retro design and appearance. (and I, also, am an Enfield fan)
Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:19 am

World Traveler
2007 LX150 Daring Plum Leonardo Da Vespa
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 29304

 
World Traveler
2007 LX150 Daring Plum Leonardo Da Vespa
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 29304

Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:19 am linkquote
Love the Enfields but was surprised that my LX 150 could beat it.
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