Modern Vespa

what coolant are you using in your gt/gts. I need to top mine off and bought some prestone 50/50. Is anyone using something 'special' or is this stuff as good as any.

I'm also using the Prestone 50/50.

what color is the 50/50? thanks.

yellowish green

My Vespa dealer tech told me to use the plain green antifreeze.

the prestone 50/50 can be used in any application out there, so vespa should be no exception. I've called three vespa dealers and they all say just buy any automotive antifreeze

Hi,

Not all Anti-Freeze is compatible at all. There are basically two types of Coolant out there (there are more, but the differences aren't really relevant for this discussion). Both are usually Glycol based (either Propylene Glycol, or Ethylene Glycol).

In addition to the base fluid, there are a small amount of other ingredients including corrosion inhibitors, antifoaming agents, dyes and other additives. While these other ingredients make up only a small fraction of the overall coolant, they are what differentiate one coolant from another.

Conventional Coolants typically use a Phosphate/ Silicate mix as the main components in their Inhibitor pkg. Conventional inhibitors like Silicates and Phosphates work by forming a protective layer that actually insulates the metals in the Engine and Radiator from the Coolant. These inhibitors can be characterized chemically as Inorganic Oxides (silicates, phosphates, borates, etc.). Because these Inhibitor Pkgs. are depleted by forming this protective layer, conventional Coolants need to be changed at regular intervals, usually every two years.

But, in Europe, with unusually hard water (compared to the US), minerals forced Coolants to be Phosphate-free. Calcium and Magnesium, minerals found in hard water, will react with Phosphate Inhibitors to form Calcium or Magnesium Phosphate, this can cause the formation of scale on hot Engine surfaces. This results in a loss of heat transfer and/or corrosion under the layer of scale.

Instead of Phosphates, conventional European coolants contain a mix of Inorganic Oxides like Silicates and Inhibitors called Carboxylates. Carboxylates differ in their corrosion protection in that they chemically interact with the metal at corrosion sites in the engine, instead of forming a layer of Inhibitors that cover the total surface.

In Asia, where the water is OK, Silicates are the problem. Issues with Water Pump Seals, heat transfer, toxicity and non-biodegradability led to a ban of coolants containing Silicate. To provide protection, most coolants contain a mix of Carboxylates and Inorganic Inhibitors like Phosphates.

Extended-Life Coolants are usually Carboxylate-based and were developed to be globally acceptable and provide superior performance over existing chemistry. This chemistry is also known as Organic Acids Technology (OATs). Because full Carboxylate coolants have no Silicates, they meet the stringent requirements of the Asian specifications, but they also meet the European coolant requirements because they have no phosphates. These coolants have developed international popularity due to having an unsurpassed corrosion protection for extended time intervals. They have the added benefit of working better, being non-toxic and are biodegradable.

In these Coolants (which is what Piaggio/Vespa uses) the corrosion protection is provided by Carboxylates see: http://www.flselenia.it/commonfile/it/pdf/1034_scat_ITA.pdf (Hope you can read Italian).

Carboxylate Inhibitors provide corrosion protection by chemically interacting with the metal surfaces where needed, not by laying down insulating layers. This allows: extended life cycles, unsurpassed high temperature aluminum protection, as well as heat transfer advantages on both hot Engine surfaces and Radiator tubes where heat transfer is critical. But, it can still breakdown in usually a 5yr./150k mi. interval.

It is not a good idea to mix an OAT Coolant with a Silicated Coolant. This will cause gelling, sludge, and sediment buildup in the Cooling System.

G12 (G30 in europe) is OAT based. It is phosphate, silicate, borate, nitrate, amine, and nitrite free. The Piaggio/Vespa Coolant is G30. So, the only Coolant you should use in the Vespa is a Silicate and Phosphate Free OAT based fluid.

The ParaFlu Moto Rider is probably tough to come by and /or prohibitively expensive. What you want is a Coolant which is Silicate and Phosphate Free and is either G12 (G30 in Europe) or G34. The most common Coolants marketed here in the US meeting these specs is Havoline DEX-COOL Extended Life Anti-Freeze/Coolant and Chevron DEX-COOL Extended Life Antifreeze/Coolant, both made by Artego, a joint venture by Elf, a european chemical company, and Chevron-Texaco. Also, be sure to use only Distilled Water when mixing with an Anti-Freeze. This prevents the formation of Mineral Deposits and acidic compounds. Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim

What a wealth of anti-freeze knowledge you have! It makes sense to me - I guess my question is, how certain can we be that the stuff that's in there that came from the dealer is the real deal - the G12/G30/G34 as you recommend. Maybe I should call the dealer and asked what he put in there. I'm in need of a top off as well.

thanks

Hi,

@ Krony - you make a very good point. But, an Authorized Vespa Dealer should be using the right stuff, that's part of their responsibility in holding a Vespa Franchise. So, short of sending a sample to a Lab for analysis, I'd go with the assumption that they did use the OAT Coolant.

On my GT 200, a sticker on the backside of the Coolant Reservoir Access Cover cautions specifically not to mix fluids and use only Nitrite and Nitrate Free Coolant - in other words, Oat based Coolant.

The reason I discovered so much about Coolants is that I moderate a Technical Forum for Porsches. Porsche insists that only their own brand of coolant be used. It's prohibitively expensive and so many owners opted (unknowing) for a standard coolant instead. Many experienced the problems with the coolant gelling and the engine overheating (or just running hot). A couple of $20k Engines were ruined.

Porsche doesn't make Coolant, they make cars. So, I suspected that their proprietary fluid was made by someone else. After exhaustive research, I found out their fluid is made by Artego. Further, that it's not a proprietary Coolant at all, but just repackaged Artego Coolant. I was contacted by a representative from Artego who confirmed this and also said that they produce the same Coolant in a variety of proprietary packaging for various manufacturers and OEM suppliers.

I shot him an email asking specifically if they also produced the Coolant for ParaFlu and he responded that existing trade contracts prevented him from confirming my inquiry, but he went on to say that the Artego Coolant is 100% compatible with ParaFlu Moto Rider (he underlined 100%), so I suspect that it really is just re-packaged Artego Coolant. He further stated that this same Coolant is sold in the US as Havoline and Chevron-Texaco DexCool Extended Life Coolant.

From what I learned, if you were to ever use a conventional fluid instead of the OAT based Coolant, you can never switch back without acid flushing the system and replacing all hoses, so it's best to stick with the proper stuff to begin with. For more info see: http://www.motocross.it/sito/htm/ins/56.htm http://www.havoline.com/products/na/antifreeze_01.html Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim

I can agree with this statement as it was accidentally done in a Chevy Blazer we were driving out west. It began to over heat going up a mountain pass and we barely made it to our destination. It did gel up the cooling system, the whole thing had to be flushed, cleaned, and I believe the radiator had to be replaced.

So my dealer said he just used the regular stuff - prestone or whatever. I suppose then I ought to just stick with the regular stuff as well? Good to know about porsches though - I wouldn't mind having one of those one day (although that day is a long way off). Thanks

Hi,

Krony, I'd try to pin the Dealer down a little more - Prestone makes 10 different types of Coolant and only 2 of them are the ones you should be using.

If they're already using the right stuff, and you add any old Prestone, you're likely to contaminate the system unknowingly.

A good Dealer should be able to tell you exactly what chemicals they're adding to your vehicle. If they say Prestone, ask them which Prestone? Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim

So if we use the Prestone 50/50 premix that is supposed to mix with any antifreeze, are we screwing up our systems? Should we just drain the entire system and start fresh? I was gonna do that next year. I have added the 50/50 Prestone premix stuff already but haven't seen any signs of problems so far.....
Doug

Hi,

The issues are progressive, not sudden. If you have the wrong stuff, you'll need to drain and flush the system and also replace any rubber coolant lines as the two Coolants combine chemically into a substance which attacks Rubber Hoses.

But, if the 50/50 Prestone you used is Extended Life Coolant, and states on the label that it is either G-12 or G-30 (Europe), and contains no Silicates, Phosphates, Nitrates or Nitrites, you're OK.

If not, or if there's any doubt, personally, I'd flush the system and replace the hoses.

I'm not much of a Gambler and have learned (often the Hard way) that if a Maintenance issue is put off, or done incorrectly, it will ALWAYS bite you at the least convenient Time & Place, like - Rush Hour on the Freeway, your Cell Phone's dead, you're out of Cash, 25 miles from Home, and it's Raining!...lol

Happy Motoring!... Jim

Seems like the more I read, the less I think of Piaggio's documentation. The owner's manual for the GTS (p108) says the coolant is

"a 50% deminerlised water and glycol ethylene and corrosion inhibitor-based antifreeze mixture. The recommended coolent: that is supplied in a canister with the fluid already mixed and already for use."

That is ALL. I took that to mean any ethelyne glycol-based antifreeze would be acceptable - evidently not. Thanks for nothing - again - Piaggio.

Great post, MNScooter!

Whoa! What a great source of indepth information on antifreeze.
I read the scoot's coolant tank warning lable and then checked the antifreeze lable before topping up last week. NOW I'm concerned!
The Antifreeze labling states "All makes, all models, mixes with any color antifreeze. Extended life up tp 5 years or 150,000 miles." and lists contents as ethylene glycol (107-21-1), diethylene glycol (111-46-6), sodium 2 etyhyl hexanoate (19766-89-3), sodium neodecanoate (31548-27-3). The brand is Wal-Mart's SuperTech. The scoot is a couple of years old but <1000 miles and I've been thinking that I probably should replace the coolant anyway.
Is this an acceptable antifreeze for my GL200?
Would there be any advantage to mixing with distilled water rather than tap water?

Not good to use tap water - it contains minerals that will deposit on the inner surfaces of the engine water jacket and the radiators; will cause corrosion and loss of heat transfer. Distilled water is free of minerals.

Hi,

@Tbates - That Coolant will work. It is an OAT based Coolant that is NAPS (nitrite, amine, phosphate and silicone) free.

Whenever in doubt, drain the system and refill with fresh coolant and always use demineralized (distilled) water as mentioned.

Then, don't forget to bleed the system by running it and checking and topping off the Coolant level in the Recovery Tank every day until the level stabilizes.

It's never a good idea to mix coolant brands, even though they may be of the same type. Different Brands contain different additive pkgs. which may be chemically incompatible with another brand. The additives may neutralize one another or worse, change the Ph level of the Coolant from slightly alkaline to acidic (this happens anyway as a natural by-product of the breakdown of the Glycol (EG or PG)) but at a much slower rate. Having too low a Ph level (acidic) can have negative consequences on the plastic and rubber bits of the system (Recovery Tank, Rubber Hoses, Water Pump Impeller, etc.) reducing their service life considerably. Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim

Thanks, Jim.
Just the assurances needed to tackle the job with confidence that I'm not going to make things worse!!!

A dealer told me that the new GTS's come already filled with coolant. Is this true? All the way from Italy? I'm still on a bit of a quest to figure out exactly what the heck is in my new GTS.

I am using "Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant" is both silicate and phosphate free.

Hi,

Just a note: You cannot believe claims of Compatibility on the labels of various coolants out there. Some even claim to be compatible with every other coolant, and this simply isn't true. Marketing has much to do with this type of compatibility labeling.

For example, I did research on various brands re. compatibility for the Porsche Forum I moderate and got an email from the research director for Chevron-Texaco telling me that their Havoline and Texaco Dex-Cool is not compatible with Prestone Dex-Cool. But in response to my inquiry, Prestone emailed me that their Dex-Cool is compatible with Havoline and Texaco Dex-Cool, so who you gonna believe?

Without some expertise in Organic Chemistry and a full testing Lab at your disposal, it's gonna come down to whom you believe.

With the exception of mixing Silicone vs non-Silicone coolants and the resultant gelling issues, mixing other types of coolants won't grenade your engine, but you may not be getting all the benefit or claimed service life you paid for.

All coolants require changing at some time interval. This is for one of two reasons or both. Either the additive package needs replenishing, and/or the changes in chemistry over time change the Ph level of the coolant to an inacceptable level.

One concern of mine has to do with the increasing number of plastic components in cooling systems such as the Vespa GT and GTS. The various chemical changes in coolants seem to have an adverse effect on these plastics making them brittle to the point of cracking or even crumbling over time. This has been a chronic issue with the Porsche Boxster and 996 (water-cooled 911). Tests have confirmed that this is primarily caused by the coolant becoming too acidic with time, that is a Ph of <7.0 (neutral), which causes the plastics (usually Nylon 66 resin) to become brittle. These issues are not immediate, but progressive.

Most coolants are slightly alkalinic with Ph levels in the 7.5-9.0 range. When mixed 50/50 with distilled water, the resultant Ph usually falls approx. 0.5 Ph, becoming neutral to slightly alkalinic. But, with age, they will usually fall below 7.0 Ph and become increasingly acidic.

The best advice is to stick with one brand of coolant and change it at 2 yr. intervals. Mark the inside of the Inspection Cover with the brand used and date changed to keep a permanent record. If in doubt, drain and flush the system to be sure. Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim

Inside the leg shield cover, it says a nitrate free coolant, 50/50 with distilled water. That covers MOST of the compatible anti-freezes in NA.

So, how do you flush the system?

A little help. I'm paranoid now.

Hope this helps, I copied the instructions on the engine ice website.

For any coolant and anytime you are changing coolant, we recommend a simple solution of distilled water and white distilled vinegar, both available at your local grocery store.

1. Mix the water/vinegar at 50/50

2. Fill system with the solution

3. Run engine until warm

4. Let cool

5. Drain

6. Run clear water through to rinse out vinegar.

7. Fill with coolant of choice.



This is the same as cleaning your coffee maker. The vinegar is acidic enough to clean out and contaminants and residual coolants, yet it won't harm your seals and gaskets.

It helps a lot but not enough.

Is there a drain plug for the cooling system somewhere? If so, where? If not, how?

Thanks

Sorry - no drain plug!
The GT200 Workshop Manual states:
"Before acting on the radiators, drain the cooling circuit by disconnecting the liquid inlet tube from the pump." (p.260 - photo included)
You can download the manual from the Technical Library forum.
BTW, the OEM hose clamps are single use. You'll need to replace them with standard 1" hose clamps.

Hye MN Scooter Great Post!.
Lucky~

Never Never Never use "Green" Coolant. If your dealer tells you to, its because they want your hard earned cash! Conventional inhibitors like Silicates and Phosphates (Green Prestolite) it's specifically designed for Cast Iron. Our Bikes are a Aluminum block and Aluminum rad and require Antifreeze free of Silicates. Spend the extra dough and flush with the right coolant!

Tomas

How about Red Line WaterWetter?

Here in the golden state freezing is not really an issue and glycol based coolants are really slippery if they get on the tires.

I was thinking of using pure watter with WaterWetter in my GT200. Anyone have experience with it?

I read through thee posts and would like to know which anti-freeze to buy to put in my two GTS's , is the Prestone 50/50 Ok or not?

hay guys,

does anybody know of a retailer that sells a g12 compatible antifreeze? I tried Autozone today with no luck. I'm in LA so we have Kragen, Pep Boys, Kmart, etc.

Or do I have to go to a car dealership? If so which one? VW? Honda?

Thanks
-m

VW should have some, I know they should be using g12+ or g12++ on their new cars....

I am using Motul Motocool.

many thanks to mn scooter....your are indeed the man

This is a magazine article from 10 years ago that dealt with many of the same issues regarding the correct anti-freeze and compatibility between types and brands. It was written about automobiles, but the dangers of using the wrong product apply to our liquid cooled scooters.

Good reading for those who just think any anti-freeze is OK. Again, don't mix with tap water, just distilled water and never run straight water, even if you live in California. Water has absolutely no lubricating or corrosion inhibiting properties.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/how_to_central/automotive/1272436.html

how often to you have to fill up your antifreeze. my gts is 11 months old with 4700 miles on it and is already on empty. yesterday it shutdown at a traffic light and I have to pushed it all the way home because it was over heated!! 1 3/4 mile from home and it was 100F out!!

You have a leak. Clean up the engine, put fresh anti-freeze in and see where it's coming from. Common spots are hose clamps, waterpump and a cracked coolant reservoir. Or better yet, put in fresh anti-freeze and have your dealer repair it.

Harvey

Maybe a check of the coolant level every now and then would have caught that before it left you stranded.

Do covers have to be removed or is it easy to do?