Modern Vespa

So I wound up buying a P200 with a Malosi 210 kit, PSP2000 pipe, Malosi reed block and a 30mm PHBH

I have also snagged a 30mm PHBH for rotary that I am going to use with my Pinasco 225.

I know a few others are working with these and I would try to get everything into one place.

So some of the threads are for Lambretta set up but hey...they are the same carb

http://www.bristollambretta.com/dellortojettingneedles.htm

http://bristollambretta.webs.com/mixtureadjustment.htm

http://www.smellofdeath.com/lloydy/carb.htm

http://www.smellofdeath.com/lloydy/jetting.htm

OK my first question. On the reed block 210 the previous owner used a rubber manifold mount

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/connecting+piece+malossi+for_40420000

It appears that these have often split and the weight of an air filter helps speed the process. Any reason not to go to a metal connector?

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/connecting+piece+sip+for_40430000

So I'm getting ready to install a 30mm PHBH On my P225

Pinasco 225
Ported and head profiled by HRS
60mm Worb 5 crank
PEP 3 Pro exhaust
Rotary induction
Timing at 18 degrees
CHT EGT and Tach

I'm know it's going to take a bunch of adjustments to get dialed in but I'm just looking for a starting point.

I'm considering
atomiser/needle jet AV266
main jet 135
X7 needle second clip
40 slide
55 pilot
mixture screw 1.5 to 3 turns out

Any comments or suggestions appreciated!

I struggled for a year to tune my 28mm on Polini 177, & gave up. Leaned out at top revs in 4th, but now I'm. Putting on a fast flow tap to see if that helps

Yeah..already put a fast flow in there

Well today I rebuilt the PHBH 30mm that came on the 79 P200 that I stole.

Malossi 210, short 4th, PSP2000 expansion chamber.

This was the first time I have done a rebuild on one of these. A little different but really not bad. I have a few different set ups from research but my main goal was to get things running.

I put everything back as I found it. It had been sitting for about 10 years or so. All the o rings were dry and brittle. I need some fresh gas but I did get ti to fire up. Need to set the idle higher but hey...it's always fun to bring one back to life!

So here is what I have

PHBH 30mm
Slide - 30
needle x3 clip 1st notch
atomizer AV260
Main jet 135
Idle 55

Well it looks like this thread is all mine! That's OK..it will be a good way to keep track of what I've tried. (Yes...I keep a notebook too!)


Pinasco 225
Ported and head profiled by HRS
60mm Worb 5 crank
PEP 3 Pro exhaust
Rotary induction
Timing at 18 degrees
CHT EGT and Tac

So I got the PHBH 30mm mounted - rotary intake, and tried my first set up. I had some problems with the P choke so I decided to use a flip choke to start. I put in the quick disconnect one the fuel line. (Thanks random tips and tricks!)

Slide 30
Needle X2, clip position 1
Main jet 138
Idle 55
AV264
Mix screw 1 1/2 out
Idle scres 1 !1/2 out

Warmed it up and had to adjust the throttle cable and idle up. Adjusted the mix until I got a steady idle.

Took it out and it did pretty well. Good power pretty much all the way through. running through the gears and light to light I was at about 300 F CHT and 1,100 F EGT.

The only problem was cruising at about 5K rpm on flat in 4th. CHT would hit a quick spike to about 600 and EGT woul rise to about 1,300 f. If I backed off the throttle or if I gave a twist temps would drop. I'm going to try adjusting the mixture screw first. I can't imagine that the 70 idle is too small.

Over all, since I really haven't set one of these up from scratch before, I'm pretty happy with the initial config. I know it will still take some time to get set up but I think I'm on the right track. I need to order a couple other idle jets as I ordered the wrong ones. I have jets, needles and clips coming out my butt!

Any suggestions or comments appreciated!

Nice! Not sure why no ones piping in on your jetting questions but hopefully someone has some suggestions.

Congrats on getting the scoot going!

THE RAT IS BACK!

PHBH has been run forever it's a great carb once set up. I always thought they were a pain to get right vs Mikuni or Keihin.

OK...took it out for a real run. Lean (hot) spot between 4000 and 4500 rpm.

Well I did a bunch of messing around today. I could see where it could be considered a pain but with the fuel quick connect it's only a few minutes to change clip position, needle or jet.

I haven't used anything but standard carbs so this is a learning experience. That's OK...it's a hobby for me...OK...it's more of an obsession.

I tried to change only one parameter at a time. Started with

Pinasco 225
Slide 30
Needle X2, clip position 1
Main jet 138
Idle 55
AV264

Moved needle to position 3...real good up to the 4100 rpm then heat spikes...CHT pegged and EGT 1,400. Ran great at 3900 RPM and 5200 RPM

Next went with back at position 1 and put in a 142 main. Way too rich, started four stroking at about 3700 rpm.

went to an X3 needle clip in position 3. Still rich but I could feather the throttle through the four stroking and didn't have any spikes.

Moved clip to position 1 to lean it out a little. This seems to be pretty close. A little rich blip at about 4300 but no heat spikes. I'm still breaking this motor in so a little rich is OK.

I'll probably ride it to work tomorrow 15 miles each way and I'll take surface streets.

So far much better results than the vortex and I spent a ton of time on that. I spent a few hours on this today and the majority of that was riding. Yeah I was watching gauges and listening...but it was still fun!

What do you mean by "four stroking"?

Better results in terms of power? Temperature?
And what CHT are you using? The "quick spike" of 600 would have me running for the fire extiguisher!

Normally, that's when it doesn't fire every stroke due to excessive richness.

See this youtube video for a pretty good explanation.

Im going to fit mine again on the next motor build, but have got a dyno session to finish setup, as need to to work on WOT a lot, as well as not cook my head while on long runs (300mile days, as full noise).

Pinking/pinging... The great sound like marbles in a tin being shaken.

I think "pinking" relates to th good ol days of leaded petrol, as exhaust would turn pink when motor ran too lean, grey when it was good, black when too rich... Ohh the simplicity of tuning that was.

Speaking of Dyno, is anyone else using the SIP app? After I got the hang of how to use it, it seems pretty good, if not a bit magic. Definitely worth the $10, I think.

I don't know what the actual peak horsepower & torque numbers are (I've set it up as best I can, but the authors say you need an actual dyno run to compare to for one of the inputs or it'll all be relative), but it lets me do effective A:B testing of changes, I think.

Gives me pretty pictures like this, too:




I put a 28mm Keihin PWK on my Stella a few weeks ago. I'm pretty sure it's actually a tiny bit quieter, at least at idle, than my 24/24si and stock reed block were, which I was not expecting. There was a slapping sound at idle that is now gone. I think it was the reed slapping closed, but don't know for sure.

Here's the initial picture with nothing cleaned up, a mess of electrical wires as I had to move the CDI (its bracket was on the two holes right over the carb), and the new throttle cable not even installed (old throttle & choke plainly visible):



Damn malossi filter kept falling off, so I'm using one that came with my 30mm knock-off PWK, but other than that, it's working well.

This weekend, I'm planning to do all new wiring to the junction box, cut down the throttle cable, and re-install the quick disconnect on the fuel line. I put in a SIP fast flow tap, too--no issues thus far with it, I'm pleased to say.

I ordered sets of both main and idle jets, so naturally it's pretty good with stock jets.

I got sick of the original filter falling off or hitting the side covers over bumps... so get a sheet (about A4 size) of Malossi (I think it was) filter fabric, & made my own... just cut the sheet into 4, use the spring that is inside the cheapie filters (to ensure it stays like a cup), then get a big grunty needle & some braided fishing line & sew it up.

No, that's wrong. Have a look at the video Chandlerman linked to find out... you will never get the two confused again.

I bought it some time ago and had a lot of trouble getting repeatable results. I fiddled with it for ages and never got a nice curve like that, it was all over the place. And yes I did try different recording places. Eventually it simply wouldn't record any more so I stopped bothering.

If it did work then I think it would be best to simply tell if the scooter is running better or worse than the last run, rather than an actual number.

Ohh THAT video, cheers, now it makes sense, my wrong.

By four stroking I mean that it is missing detonations...so only firing on every other or every third stroke. Too much fuel in the air fuel ration so it is above the upper explosive limit.

Power is better. Ran it to work this morning. Still getting som spikes but I can anticipate them now. Only happening at about 4200 to 4400 rpm cruising. I can either let off the throttle or feather the clutch through it. I know it's not good for the clutch but I would rather rebuild a clutch than blow up this motor.

Using a Westach CHT and EGT. Temps are generally 300 to 350 F range EGT and about 1100 to 1200 F.

Yeah those CHT spikes are a pucker moment. The thing that I'm not understanding is the my EGT stays pretty steady before during and after the CHT spike maxing out to about 1300. With the CHT spiking like that I would expect the EGT to just spike hard go through the roof.

It is my understanding that EGT is "what's happening now" and CHT is "what happened a short time ago". I'm wondering if my CHT is a little wacky...but at other times it seems to be reading what are reasonable temps.


Thanks for the feedback!

Sounds to me like you've got something going on with the CHT sensor.

If you were really seeing spikes up over 1,000 degrees like that, the top end would look like a s'more with the aluminum of the cylinder playing the part of a marshmallow

That's what I was thinking...I guess another good reason to be running both. It's not gradual on the CHT either...just BAM...pull the clutch and rev and drops back to about 400 instantly

So is it about a hundred (plus jets and mounting stuff) better? Been toying with the idea but is it worthwhile?

It was for me, I think, but I'm also in for a lot more than a hundred with the new block and reeds,fuel tap, and various bits and bobs. So maybe I'm just telling myself that.

Seriously, though, my SIP App dyno went from 11 or 12 hp to 15 or 16 and it has a less peaky power band.

Plus, it's given me new stuff to learn about/break.

I bought as a scoot.net special. With carb, manifold, cables, jets, needles I'm probably into it for about $175 US

So I rode it to work again today and I'm getting a better feet for what's going on. My lean zone seems to be at about 3/4 throttle now from 4100 to 4300 rpm. If traffic allows I can just run right through that range. At about 5500 rpm temps will slowly climb..CHT to about 400F and EGT to about 1350 F

If I stay below 4000 RPM everything is great. About 250 CHT and 1100 EGT. I'm going to try a 140 main next but it looks like the 55 idle is good.

Have you marked your throttle to make sure you're looking at the same amount of opening on the carb?

I'll ssume that this chart from this page of which parts of a PWK affect tuning at what throttle settings applies to the PHBH, too:


(Alternately, maybe someone has a comparable chart for the PHBH)

Assuming that chart applies, though,it looks to me like you're probably one or two mains off before you'll need to look at your needle taper--then possibly come back down on the main..

Sorry, I'll rephrase the question. How much better/more powerful is it compared to what you had on before?
3%?
28%?
None of the above?

OK...now I got ya! To me I would say 40% better but I need to explain.

Before this I was running a HRS modified 24/24 Vortex. Some may say that this is difficult to set up but I tried pretty much everything> I pretty much had hot rod Al on speed dial. I could not get that even close to being set up with this motor and I spent many many many many many hours on it.

It is also really messy with a lot of spit back. It was getting down to conversations like..."well maybe you could try grinding down the mix needle" "You might try clipping the spring to let the mix needle in further"

Honestly I would say that I'm OK with a 24/24 carb. Not an expert but with some time, patience I can get them set up. Not the vortex. I also know of someone else that was not able to get a vortex to work on this motor set up.


So far I really like it. My only problem are right now is between about 4100 and 4300 RPM so I think I'm close.

For what I have into this motor it's really a reasonable price.

Yes I have marked with tape and sharpie. Thank you for the chart! I have been using one similar. I think I'm pretty close and I'll keep playing with it changing one thing at a time!

Today on the way home It was only that one area between about 4100 and 4300 rpm. I'll try an up jet, then a different clip position.

Thanks all for the feedback!

Aside from losing the grub screw into the intake, I had very few issues with my Vortex. On the Polini 208 I ran a 140 ac, BE3 and 150 main. A rich idle but can't recall just now. I had spitback, but nothing silly.
You do mean you had spitback with the Vortex, not the PHBH right?

I'd be extremely pleased with 40%, but is part of that a % improvement because you don't have to fiddle with the Vortex any more, or simply an improvement in power?

Sorry to divert the thread!!

Id say that judging by the jetting chart above, @ 4200rpm on your 210 you would be at not much more than 1/4 throttle..which would suggest you first lower your needle clip position.

TIL that the float sits enough higher that what was time to switch to reserve is now effectively an empty tank.

Doh!

That German resource site put me in the right direction... I'm using a phbh rotary valve set up, with pinasco long stroke crank on a malossi 210 sport kit.

My current settings are (getting that chocolate brown colour spark plug):
PHBH 30
AS264 atomiser
x25 needle 2nd notch from top (second leanest)
130 Main Jet
55 Slow Jet
70 choke jet
40 slide
Air screw 2 turns out

Exhaust is a pipedesign (pipe design) bullet 220 HS

And most of my riding is near sea level...

Few tips from my side

1) mixer info
As mixer = phbh28
Av mixer = phbh30
The as doesnt work in the phbh30
In low rev its always way too rich, no matter which size

Sadly dellorto delivers it.sometime with the wrong mixer
And there are a lot of wrong infos online too

I also included this info in the gsf wiki phbh article


2) needle ventile
Always replace the 200 needle ventile, kts too small, the chamber is sucked empty. Even the si24 has 240 =2,4mm above the needle
I always replace it with a 300

3)
Si26 or phbh30? What to use?
Power is the same (can provide u diagrams if u like)
For rotary valve up to 20/22hp at the wheel stick to si carb
Above that and with a big new expansion chamber exhaust
(nope. Not the old. Ones: jl scorpion sip pm. Etc)

use a phbh, as it is a full carb it can be set better
and not a cropped carb like the si with small floating chamber and missing needle&ventile, where u have to make compromises with settings

A big box like the bbs is a expansion chamber exhaust
It hits ecactly the same curve as the sip v2
U can still. Use si carb with big boxes

4) rv vs rv
As i read malossi reed intake
In this case u can better stick to rotary valve

Whats the difference reed valve vs rotary valve on-road?
Surprisingly rotary with box is at same speed or faster than reed valve
Si25 rotary valve vs phbh30 with mrp rd350 reed valve
https://youtu.be/Wu2nxJsvDhk

(and its so much fun hunting and overtaking other acooter with big carbs and pipes with a simpe si box setup)

dont underestimate rotray valve and the good old si24
(si28? Way too expensive for a cropped carb u get 2 phbh30 for it)

Freakmoped you mean av is too rich?

Av is richer than As