Modern Vespa

Here is my advice from a fellow tuner...
This all took a few years or so of playing, tuning, failing, breaking, rebuilding, & finally get running well.

I started with a VBC 150, 2-port, small flywheel taper version, no battery, with points...

& the plan & parts so far...
Have added a 3rd port (welded & grinding & all sorts of case mods etc...), 28mm Polini side-draft w vortex intake, modified Serie-Pro race crank, Polini straight cut Gear-up kit, DR race clutch (with high-tensile rivets -I've already torn it apart a few times), heavily modified Polini 177cc with GS piston & MMW head (NGK 9 or 10 plug), fast flow tap, Modified BoomStick (or possibly a very revvy Sterling) exhaust. I can't remember what other mods I've done, but if there are some I've missed let me know. I love revs, & speed, & oddly have enough torque to go up hills (usually in 2nd or 3rd), & have many exploded or torn apart clutches, & have many stuffed pistons from leaning out.
It is being built primarily for the Mille & longer distance rides & speed.

I have not used a lightened/plastic flywheel as hear that it has less inertia, & therefore less torque, also I don't think I'll use the Quadrini kit, as it can't be rebooted & I like the old-skol aggressive Polini

I've been looking & trying to work out front suspension (will use YSS Adjustable on the rear), as am keeping the 8" wheels, as its just so much more agile.
Need recommendation on tyres (it appears that Heidenau K75 are the only option).
I'm looking for the bigger front hub (posted elsewhere), so I can get better braking power, but can't find the hub.

Other things to work out:
Staying with points or going to electronics ign... I feel points may be a good idea as it should restrict the revs (as I love revs!), but if you have a recommendation for electronic ign that will work n the small taper, then I'd consider it (I'm resisting due to overall funds)

Stay with VBC standard Super 4-speed gears or use the longer LML gears... Considering I will have a gear-up kit as well. I gave a few other gearboxes available, so if you have teeth info let me know.

Possibly add a fuel pump... I am considering taking out the fuel tank & filling the void with a flexible bladder (& therefore would need a pump) to create a long range tank & to lower centre of gravity... I've had issues in the past (lots of them, & lots of breakdowns) due to leaning at WOT in 4th.. I simply cannot hold it open without major leaning (& seizing).

Is there any aspect I have missed, or you think I also need to add?
It's not often that I will ask for real advice, nor let others know what mods I've done/am doing, but I respect you guys & appreciate any assistance with this.

give ur adress and i'll see what i can do as ur front drum is right in my lap as i wrote this down

have a nice day in Aussie and cheer

I will PM my address.
We are also trying to work out a way to bring our knowledgable mechanic (ie you) to Australia for the Mille & National Rally.... Now to work out the paperwork & a letter from your employer saying you have a job again when you get back.

josh... Did you have any ideas on this?

I've been offered Vespatronic... A lot more than I would like to spend, but does anyone use it or recommend it or an alternative ?

BGM front damper? Meant to be very good... I know Ric from the Vintage club has a new one that he can't use.

Then put him in touch with me

naah man they wont let him into the country ,too gangster. i tried but



no i dont have any tuning advice, cutdown matte blacce with french le sign writing and a lap blanket maybe

I heard that you had tried to get him here... What was it that stopped it?
Happy to chat elsewhere, I guessed it was a hassle, but worth a try, plus it would mean you come to the nationals

Mirrors are also not something I consider to be a MOD

Has anyone used Dellorto/mikuni low pressure or 12v electronic fuel pumps?
Any suggestions?
What are best?
Any tips on how to set them up or how/where to fit vacuum pipe.

Has anyone added an extra jet/nozzle for adding extra fuel at revs/speed?
Also the possibility of having it with a pump
I would like to be able to 'inject' a wee magicmix as required, & while at revs/torque.

I'm looking at extending the fuel tank, & will need to use a pump. The plan is to remove the complete tank, & fabricate a flexible tank to fill the entire void under the seat, with pump in centre channel (between feet)

Nitrous!

http://www.nitrous.info/motorcycle-nitrous-injection-system.htm

Fuel Pump Installation

Best quote EVER in an article about how to setup Nitreous...

"
13. An arming switch
Specification: Any switch that looks cool, sits in your cars dashboard, or somewhere within easy reach on a bike, that allows you to switch "on" or arm the system ready for use. It must be reliable, and be able to cope with 5 amps and preferably have some kind of light or other indicator so you don't forget its on!

Ideals: Use a "standard" interior switch in your car that uses the unused switch positions on your dashboard. This way it looks standard, not obvious?"

WTF... " preferably have some kind of light or other indicator so you don't forget its on!"...

Is your Nitreous on or off?
Ohh, I'm not sure... Better check the light!

I'm still trying to work out where the vacuum return is mounted/fitted, & why they are not using a tap (ie. adjustable pressure regulator) on the fuel red turn line.
& if the 12v electric pump could be a good option.

Thought for the evening...

It says Nitreous & fuel (mix) need to be injected together... I guess it would suffice to add more air flow & volume... Wonder if injecting the mix via an "electric supercharger" (yeah, I know they don't do much besides blow air) into the carb intake would work?
Rather than into th intake elbow.

Hey SubE, that site is hilarious ... the guy seems slightly crazy but seems to know what he's talking about...

As I understand it, two strokes need a "wet system" where a mix of nitrous & fuel is injected instead of just shots of nitrous.

When you push the go button, both nitrous and fuel solenoids open, nitrous flows through the NOS solenoid and fuel flows through the fuel solenoid down the intake.

Is that basically what you mean by an 'electric supercharger'?

Here's where the vacuum pulse is pulled from. If you're using a phbh or similar (pretty sure you are) then you can simply take it from the manifold. Still might be worthwhile having it in the case if you change back to an SI carb and want to keep the pump.

I saw your comment on the other thread and I think you're getting confused... just think of it this way. You have a supply line coming in to the pump from the tank. You have a delivery line going from the pump to the carb. That's it!

But, to avoid the problem of pump pressure overcoming the needle & seat and flooding the carb, you fit a line between the two that allows some of that pressure to bleed off harmlessly back into the supply line... this is what is being termed the return line.
The adjustable bit in the return line is a main jet or similar, it doesn't seem to be that fussy from my reading to need a variable option (ie tap).

The 12v pump may be an option fitted to a seperate tank... when you run out on the main, turn the pump on.

...definitely go 22 tooth clutch (with a reinforced band) to capture the revs....either upgrade all the internals and buy a banded basket for the standard size clutch..or get a PX clutch and grind away the inside of the VBC cover till the pX clutch doesn't rub.

You can get a reinforced circlip..22 tooth back plate and banded basket all for the standard size clutch.

I am using the Polini gear-up kit but can't remember how many teeth it's got. I also use the CNC machined DRT race clutch, which has high tensile (custom turned 10+ tensile rivets as used to shear the engine gear assy off!), with reinforced circling, so will have to grind the cases to suit.
Plates are ? I forget what they are.

As mentioned, I am using a gear-up kit, which is not always the most practical thing & on the weekend went for a rid (in 100km/h zone)... while it was easy to keep up in 3rd, when I went into 4th it was too difficult to get on the pipe & maintain speed (at 100km/h), so scoot would slow back down (especially on hills), till I went back into 3rd, & caught back up again... then came the downhill sections where I simply popped it into 4th, wound it out & left them for dust.
The majority of my riding is city riding, so I am happy to run in 2nd or 3rd (I rarely go into 4th), & if I want to ride quietly & sedately I simply short-shift & cruise quietly in 4th at 60km/h (30mph).
While at lunch we were discussing with someone who had a 3-speed & wanted to run a faster/modified motor... I said they should be fun with a gear-up kit, as then you would have 'slow', 'medium', 'fast' gears... this got me thinking... everyone keeps insisting I put in a T5 4th, so that I can get on the pipe in 4th easier, but I am resisting this, as what is the point of building a fast scoot, then slowing down 4th just so it is easier to go almost as fast?
So have come up with another option...
I currently have (basically): 1st, 2.5, 3.5 & 5th gear rations... SO... if I could lengthen 3rd, then it would be ok to stay in till easily 100km/h (62mph) & usable to 110km/h (70mph) PLUS the ratio between 3rd & 4th would be more sensible & it would be more like running the T5 4th whereas the scoot would now be in the correct rev-range when it goes into 4th so that it can get onto the pipe easier..
This weeks question: has anyone used a LONG 3rd, & if so how did it go? Any recommendations?

Have a play with this - http://gearingcalc.free.fr/ Don't forget to select the right tyre.

Check out these - http://www.sip-scootershop.com/main/base/Results.aspx?t=drt+gear&d=%28px%29&a=1&sort=0

Helps if you know where your peak power is in the rev range.

I can find the final ratios (1: 15.38, 2: 10.26, 3: 7.24, 4: 5.39) but dont know the teeth, nor it they are correct numbers (for a 2008-2099 LML NV150) so calc is not helping so far.
I also dont know the ratios for my early 150 Super.

People keep saying the SS180 or GS have the best balanced gearbox, so i may look to see if i have one... Also does anyone know if one can build a box with whatever ratios? I mean... Will all pairs of 3rd fit with 1,2,4 from another box?
Ive got enough gears from different boxes to make ratios i like, & know that when changing from 3 to 4 speed that the same shaft can be used (ie use 3-speed shaft from VBB will work when 4-speed gears are fitted to it (i did this with a bodge, plus changed the end roller bearings & other stuff,but it worked)

From reading I'm fairly certain that the late LML gearbox is the same as the EFL 200 box. So that's what I used as a base when calculating. Just pick that and change the gear teeth numbers to match the DRT ones.

I bought a T5 4th a few years ago and tried to put it into my stock Super, and it didn't fit. The xmas tree gears didn't reach close enough from memory. So I put a 200 gear set & xmas tree in. Bear that in mind when considering swaps... also the late EFL box is far better for a tuned motor... wider surfaces where the cruciform engages means you are less likey to slip out of gear, plus you can shim from both ends.
Now is not the time to go backwards.

I'm going to use this line everytime I need/WANT to spend money on the rally or some other scooter need. There is little room for arguing this 8)

WTF Ginch... You holdout, you never mentioned there was a T5 4th hiding in your cave, else i may have already fitted it!

There is no want... only need. Consider the Mongoose... (read more) Yeah that's because it's hiding in my gearbox!!!

must be stone fruit season in america, happy dayzz

calllum ill swap you half a strawberry for two cherries on cardboard. xx

The wee squares of cardboard i have have a different design, but im sure they make me see strawberries

are you seein the fruit too

Yeah, but it keeps moving

I think something fruity has been going on here

After numerous calculations with Ginch, I am happy that the original early VBC Super gearing, with added gear-up kit is my best option (ill get the specific details tonight), BUT I want a longer 3rd (& hopefully 2nd) i see SIP have individual gears for the later box, but i cannot find the same for the early box... Does anyone know where i can get gears with different teeth that will fit?

Otherwise...

I am still considering a 5-speed, but can only find it for the later box.

If you are wondering why i don't just fit the later box... Well, they seem to be for 10" wheels, & i'm sticking with 8", & putting the other box screws up all my ratios.

Hi Callum

I'm interested in seeing the numbers, but only cos it would be a learning experience for me!

I know next to nothing about gears. However, I do know that 2d on our Super is so short it's gone before you know it.

I rode a Rally 180 a while back and remember thinking how nicely balanced the gearing was... it really moved the bike well. It didn't wind out as quick as the Super.. Super might have actually been faster... but the Rally felt like it took longer strides. Not sure what you're after, but that's what I'd shoot for.

I will check out the SS180 & Rally 180 Gearing, but think they have 10" wheels, so once they are used with 8" there is not enough top end, & by adding a gear-up kit kinda brings it back to standard rather than faster than standard (which is what I am looking for).
my ideal gearing is: slow, medium (60km zones), fast (80 & 100km zones), & hmmm time to button off (100+km zones).
1st = long as possible, 2nd = up to 65-75km, 3rd = 60-100km, 4th = 80-as fast as possible.

Get the Vespatronic... not programable but the preset curve is worth every penny.. set it up at 25 BTDC and you'll definitely feel the boost in the low end, and you'll have peace of mind when it goes down to 16 or 17 respectively at high revs. Worth it.. I love em.. just bough the Varitroic (exact same thing but for Lambretta) and I know I'll find that power in the low rpm range I know is hiding there. Again not programmable but tested tried and true.

Also Very true.. the EFL gearbox / axle do an amazing job of keeping the bike in gear.. I can ride with a completely thrashed Xiform (cross) as the torque of y motors kills them quickly but I never pop out of gear.. if you can fit an EFL box to whatever bike.. again.. worth every penny.

I don't know what you can get in a super case but if possible try to get a 23/65 primary setup with tall 1st and 2nd gears, standard 3rd and short 4th... it'll stil cruise comfortably at 60 w/ a short 4th. Whether you can get those gears and ratio in a super case (maybe gear 1 from X, gear 2 from Y.?) I don't know. but that's the general "shape" of the gearing I'd to for.

You can get them into a Super case, just the shaft part from the original layshaft should be used (the shaft that goes inside the xmas tree).

Yes, the 8" wheels would mess with the top end if you just popped 180 gears in there. What I'm saying is I'd do some math and shoot for similar ratios:

Rally 180 ratios:
1st gear: 14.47: 1
2nd gear: 9.84: 1
3rd gear: 6.81: 1
4th gear: 5.08: 1

Super ratios:
1st gear: 13.35: 1
2nd gear: 9.32: 1
3rd gear: 6.64: 1
4th gear: 4.73: 1