Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:03 am

Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3319
Location: Nashville
 
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3319
Location: Nashville
Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:03 am linkquote
I think you're over-engineering the fuel pump piece for day-to-day operation.

There's plenty of fuel in the float bowl to get the engine started and the pump going under normal circumstances, at which point other than maybe a few bubbles to clear out of the line, it'll catch right back up.

I'm running a vacuum/manifold pump with a low pressure regulator (thanks to blackbart for suggesting this approach over in the Fuel Pump Installation thread) and it's working perfectly for me after a month or so of use.

Prior to installation, I was having a combination of increased carb height cutting off the bottom 1/3rd of my tank along with weak flow at extended WOT. All now fixed

The bit that was the slightest bit tricky was getting the regulator set correctly. Once I dialed the regulator back to about 3.5 psi, my PWK carb wasn't dripping fuel from the overflow line at idle and has been awesome ever since. Other than that awkward bit where thread seal fouled my carb...

Where it can get ugly is when you run out of gas and need to get the fuel line re-filled. I'm lazy and kept my electric start, so I can effectively drive the pump with the starter, but that takes a good 5-10 seconds, which is about 50-100 kicks worth of pumping. If you're planning to regulate your pressure with a bypass line around the pump, that could be an effective solution there, but it would still be pretty slow to refill if it's also a return line.

A second line with a check valve would be faster, but you're starting to get a lot of plumbing going on for dealing with a corner case, IMO.
Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:55 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:55 am linkquote
I wont have the 'luxury' of elect start... So looks like running along side while in gear may be an option if i run out of fuel competely... I had not thought about that scenario... Lucky i am planning to have a rather large fuel tank.

The pump is very low pressure, so i hope its ok without a press. reg.
But it is 12v.

There are enough spare wires to fit a battery, so it is still a consideration.
Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:37 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:37 pm linkquote
A battery needn't be huge. This one is 100x40x60, you could fit it underneath your side glovebox and you'd hardly see it.

http://www.jaycar.com.au/Power-Products-Electrical/Storage-Batteries/SLA-GEL-Rechargeable/1-3-Amp-Hour-12-Volt-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Battery/p/SB2480
Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:23 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:23 am linkquote
Ive got a new battery (in th SB50), so am currently working out how to get 2x timers, fuel pump, indicators, vespatronic, huge horn, lights, accessory socket, some form on electronic security, flow adjusting air induction & a few other things worked into the loom.

Motor has been with Ginchi, checking & adjusting the porting, now it is with Rolf for gearbox & assembly, then off for a dyno... All ready to ride over 1000km in 2 days on The Mille... Yeehaa!
http://scootermille.weebly.com
Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:00 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:00 pm linkquote
here is the FINAL gearing
GPS said top was 117km/hr on first day, & it was quicker on day 2... Or so the GPS told me as it seized...

Hardest bit was remembering if i was in 3rd or 4th... 1200rpm rev drop between gears sure ensures the power stays on!
Im stoked at the final gearing setup... But for higher speed it would be tempting to get a longer primary.... But for twisties going 2-3-4 while under full power was simply awesome... Damn impressive!


Final actual gearing


Top GPS speed... Must be correct



Last edited by SubEtherBASS on Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:00 am; edited 2 times in total
Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:45 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:45 pm linkquote
Should be good for Broadford... if you can learn how to turn right!!
Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:46 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:46 pm linkquote
Final set-up (or what I can remember of it)
Cases:
Original VBC1M, 2-port crankcases, with 3rd-port added
Extensive porting done & oil galleries etc enlarged
There is a small oil leak under the flywheel thru the welding (dang!), o/w happy

Crank:
Serie-Pro Modified Mazza crank, with additional flow tuning done
small taper flywheel version

Cylinder Kit:
Polini 177cc, Worb5 modified, with GS Piston
further porting/manipulation of piston (additional holes added & everything enlarged) & barrel (exhaust port re-shaped & all ports enlarged) was done
it seized & was re-bored on the side of the road with 120grit sandpaper!
Barrel raised & top shortened to achieve 1.1mm squish & port-matched
Timing: 176/120 (from memory)

Ignition:
Vespatronic Ign
Currently 18deg, but have pinking issue while cruising but awesome at WOT out of corners,
Changing it a bit made the pinking go away, but it also leaned out & seized, plus there was no-go out of corners
so it needs minor tweaking
### Dyno to be done ###

Exhaust:
Boomstick exhaust, modified rear inner pipe, slot cut for quick removal & added bracket to lower rear shock bolt
it snapped in half & noted that pipe went into chamber than others, so pipe was cut to match

Carb:
Polini PHBH 28mm Side-draft, modified intake & m/fold, foam (handmade) pod
I’ll dig up the setup soon…
### Dyno to be done ###

Gearing:
Primary Drive: 24/63 Malossi (as they were the only ones that did it!)
PX xmas, with following: 12/57 (12.4), 13/40 (8.1), 17/37 (5.73), 21/37 (4.63)
1st is standard, 2nd is exceptionally long, 3rd is standard, 4th is exceptionally short
There is about 1800-2000rpm drop between 2nd & 3rd, & only 1200-1500rpm drop between 3rd & 4th
Is was hard to work out which gear I was in at times… but ohh soo much power from about 45km/h to 120km/h!

Clutch:
DRT CNC Machined jobbie, with 13 springs (21 max, but for around town less seems to work, easy to hold, but has never slipped)
Ceramic Plates
Big-Phat hardened circlip
It has handled the abuse well, never a graunch or slip!

Tyres/Brakes:
Tyres; Heidenau K75, 3.50-8" 46M, TT (they had the highest speed rating)
Brakes Front; Standard Shoes (that got so hot they melted the paint on the hub!)
Brakes Rear, Standard grooved Shoes

Suspension:
Front:
Stoffi Spring, New Shock
Front still dives under light braking, but its ok once brake comes on (ie tension is taken up), however I may replace oil in shock with thicker oil (it takes a while to find the best viscosity) to slow down the flow thru the internal holes.
Rear:
YKK Adjustable, with spacer at top… I may add an extra spacer to stop it from bottoming out the exhaust
All bushes/rubbers/mounts/bearings/seals replaced.

Top speed: after about 300km of 'running-in' 117km/h.
Day 2 of the Mille it was much faster, but due to GPS 'glitch' (& 'taking it easy' after a hard seize) I'm not sure of exact top speed
Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:13 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:13 am linkquote
Rough running
On day 2 of the Mille Speedy was running rough, after a few hundred km i figured that over every bump it seemed to bog down, yet when going WOT it seemed oretty good, until a few big bumps came along... So even though i suspected the VespaTronic or possibly a wiring issue or plug, it sure appeared to be fuel related. I suspected that it could be that the floats too high causing flooding, probably due to the fuel pump pressure
On my last trips the pump was not even needed & if it was on it flooded/stopped.
So tonight i pulled off the carb, cleaned it all... Incl the very dirty filter where the fuelline hooks onto the carb (this is the most commonly forgotten cause of carb issues).
Once the floats & needle were removed i went to adjust the needle height (by tweaking the bracket that holds the needle) & when it was time to fit it noticed it had moved (without even the weight of the needle), so adjusted again, but it simply dropped/moved with the weight of the bracket, so sprayed it & put ut down... Then the bracket snapped off (fractured due to bending)
So out with the JB Weld... Hole it is fuel resistant!


Patched.


Always check under this when cleaning carbs.


Doighty!
Still not sure where the red came from.

Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:04 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:04 am linkquote
So, decided to order a replacement float, & while doin so noticed 6.5gm (current one) & 12.5gm weights, so investiaed further... Found below... & brought both.
Theory is: as using pump vs gravity there is more pressure, therefore heavier will be ok... testing to be done.

http://www.rotaxjetting.com/PDFs/Documents/Carburettor%20Float%20Height%20Tuning.pdf



Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:01 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:01 pm linkquote
I had a quick look at floats last night and saw the different weights. The website I looked at said that even though the weights were different, the buoyancy of the 2 floats remained the same. Interesting.

How do you manage to get that much shit in your filter? I've never seen that much in mine ever! Are you sure you didn't mix up your two jerry cans? You know, one holds fuel and the other one holds old rust and paint flakes?
Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:20 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:20 pm linkquote
Ginch wrote:
I had a quick look at floats last night and saw the different weights. The website I looked at said that even though the weights were different, the buoyancy of the 2 floats remained the same. Interesting.

How do you manage to get that much shit in your filter? I've never seen that much in mine ever! Are you sure you didn't mix up your two jerry cans? You know, one holds fuel and the other one holds old rust and paint flakes?
I'm interested in seeing how the heavy one goes.

Not sure where it came from & I have NOTHING in that RED (if it has sparkles, then I would own up to it)... but possibly it was from prior owner, as I think i brought it 2nd hand many years ago (as its was unlike me to splash out on something this flash & new in those days) & guess it has NEVER been cleaned since I had it (I don't recall cleaning it)...
I'm amazed that Speedy made it thru the Mille... if simply fell apart in disgust.
Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:03 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:03 pm linkquote
They arrived
YAY, the new floats arrived, plus a clear bowl, so it will be easy to see whats happening inside & where the fuel level sits.
now to fit it over the weekend & go for a ride. Def will start with the HEAVY one, as it simply makes more sense in my eyes.



Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:45 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:45 pm linkquote
Best investment... Clear float bowl...
Replaced floats, set-up so level with the tilt of carb... Pump on, fills bowl, i 'go over bumps', bowl keeps dilling, eventually fuel comes out overflow & inlet to carb...

After lots of tests & adjustments & switching to light floats... Same problem...
Cause: floats are 'shuddering' with pump, eventually bleeding all air from bowl & fuel comes out overflow & carb... Suspect the bypass is too small, causing pulsation in the pump, shudder (hammerlock) in the hoses, fast expansion/contraction of fuel-line, causing floats to bounce & needle to jump off seat, pushing/syphoning fuel into bowl, flooding it.

What are your thoughts (hope video is clear)

float bounce-zip.zip
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  float bounce-zip.zip
 Filesize:  493.84 KB

Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:04 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:04 pm linkquote
longer video

Float bounce2-zip.zip
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Float bounce2-zip.zip
 Filesize:  1.85 MB

Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:44 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:44 pm linkquote
I think you need to reduce the pressure. Chandlerman (I seem to recall) fitted a pressure gauge and regulator to his setup and hasn't had any issues.

Another option is to feed a remote float bowl perhaps mounted near the air intake under the seat and let it gravity feed from there. I reckon an SU bowl would be easy enough to rig up like this and has a needle & seat suited to use with a pump.
Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:49 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:49 pm linkquote
Ginch wrote:
I think you need to reduce the pressure. Chandlerman (I seem to recall) fitted a pressure gauge and regulator to his setup and hasn't had any issues.
I have been considering this... & the easiest way to reduce pressure is to enlarge the bypass hole that will feed excess back to inlet side of pump... currently it is 1.5mm, so i can increase it to 1.8mm-2.0mmwhich will reduce the pressure in the bowl, plus it is likely that it will also stop the pump pulsation issue, as it will be able to run at speed, rather than restricted.
remember: restriction causes backpressure.
Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:52 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:52 pm linkquote
True. It's easy enough to do.
Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:11 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:11 pm linkquote
Ginch wrote:
True. It's easy enough to do.
i was hoping to avoid it, but guessed it may be the simplest answer, PLUS I WANNA RIDE (without becoming a Flambe), not just look at it!
Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:04 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:04 am linkquote
Where did you buy the float from?
Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:05 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:05 am linkquote
Of all places... GPS, they also had both floats!
Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:45 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:45 pm linkquote
8" gearbox Guidance
If anyone is planning to modify 8" gearing I am happy to assist with ratios...

I need to know what basics are you planning to use in the box?
What type of rider/terrain/application you will mainly be using the scoot for.... ohh & a budget, as the 'perfect' box/primary/clutch can cost $1000-$1600, but there are ways to match your budget.

my VBC is running on 8" & uses a PX150 box, with different primary, 2nd & 4th.
Happy to work it out with you, as while it looks great on paper, it can be different in reality. IF I did it all again, I would either use a 4th with 1 more tooth, or change my primary to be longer... but it all depends on what you want & what type of riding/racing you intend to do.
we have 100km/h roads, so there is no real point in going 140km/h (like AnaKey can!), rather being able to go 110km/h is a better option.
My 1st is very very long, & traffic lights to traffic lights it is slow, however, it does not take too long to catch up, then leave them in my dust... but as a 'city-rider' its not idal... however on the open road/twisties/hills it is awesome!
1200prm rev drop between 3rd & 4th is taking a bit to get used to, as I 'forget' which gear I am in at times... however if I am going up a hill & notice ANY loss in power/speed, then I simply change into 3rd & accelerate away! It sure is fun!
Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:10 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:10 am linkquote
Ratios, damn Golden ratio! or 1.618...
SubEtherBASS wrote:
if you are using the original VBC Super 8" gearbox... well.... you're stuffed for changes besides the PRIMARY, as there appear to be nil aftermarket options for individual gears, hence why I used the PX150.
to change is easier for the Super2, but a pain for Super1... luckily mine was a bit of a mix (Super1 crank, Super2 gearbox)... so hopefully you will have a Super2.

I covered it a bit in my post... but basically, you need to get hold of a PX150 box, & work from there. I will work out a few ratios based on what you mentioned you need it to do (ie city = 1st to 3rd, hills = 2nd & 3rd, open hwy = 4th).
what is you 'target rev-range' that you are building the motor for?
I went for 5500-8000rpm, screw the low revs they are for city riding.
SubEtherBASS wrote:
there are some of the calcs from Speedy on pg 2...
The gearing calc was great, I spent far too many hours working on it.

in the end I wanted to change ALL gears, but $$ got in the way, so compromise was Primary Gear, plus new 2nd & 4th gears... which basically meant the starting point was working out how to get the 'ideal' ratio in 3rd (ie what speed do you want & at what revs/power-range), by changing primary only... then working out options for 2nd & 4th.
If you want to make speed records (ie over 75mph/120kmh) then you need to work on where you need 4th to be (but is is likely 3rd is the best place to start for this as well).
If you want to build a short-track/sprinter/Cafe-Racer/off-roader/VespaCross then top speed needs to be as low as possible.

There are MANY factors to consider when designing the ideal gearbox, & you need to work this out BEFORE you start working it out.

whatever you think, bunging in a longer primary is NOT the answer, it will simply mean you cannot get on the pipe in 4th... with the basic fix/patch being to put in a T5 4th, which I could not really see the point in doing so even though it is the most popular option overall (done by those that think putting a cyl kit on will transform a scoot into a fire-breather)
That was from another thread, but relavent to the here & now...
That got me thinking further...

They say the SS180 is one if the most balanced boxes, so if you want a good box, then play so you get the same ratios. There are enough options to get it pretty damn close to them.

In the real modern world someone requested a specific type of box, with 3 basic riding environments to consider... & this is my thoughts...

Light to light = racey = 1st & 2nd
Twisties/hills = torquey = 3rd
Open road = speedy = 4th

* this can also be used with speeds.

Then work out what revs (min, optimal, high, max) your motor is designed to work at most "effectively" (or whatever fancy word you use) at ...
THIS IS INFO YOU BEED TO CONSIDER WHEN BUILDING A MOTOR, simply throwing $$ & fancy bits onto a 2/- motor is a bad idea, as they seem to run on the worst characteristics rather than the good bits.

Then find out all the different ratios are avail for your box (PX/Lusso/EFL have the most options, about 4 per gear & numerous primaries)...
CAN SOMEONE HERE DO UP A LIST in their spare time?

Then go play on the calculator till something looks right.
Then let someone else look at it.

Then spend accordingly.

Simple huh?

Someone go have a play (with the basic noted above) see what they can do with 8" tyres... Its fun in its own crazy way.
Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:55 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:55 am linkquote
Needles & seats
There was a LOT of fuel 'falling' onto the ground while parked up of late, so figured it was time for a carb kit & new needle/seat.
There was a 200 needle/seat, so i got one of them, but also a 250 which has a wee spring in the needle (i have no idea what thenumbers refer to!)... Someone mentioned that the spring may be for fuel-pump models, so that is what went in, specially considering there were numerous issues with pulsating floats etc (which is why the 12.5gm float was used rather than the lighter original & that the original snapped at the pivot on the Mille)... The combo seems to be working, but now it appears to be leaning out (well, revving & staying at high revs while changing gears), the 115 main always seemed small, & i guess now the rest of the components are heavier/stable/new etc there is not as much fuel bypassing somewhere... There is a weekend of riding ahead, so a bit of jet testing will be in order... Hope all goes well.

The needle with spring is pretty cool, wonder if they are avail for a 24/24?

Last edited by SubEtherBASS on Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:00 am; edited 1 time in total
Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:59 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:59 am linkquote
Study?
Was clearing the final leftovers from the office (where Speedy was built)& came across a 'few' notes on gearing... This is only some of the calcs i undertook to 'design' Speedys box!
If only i could decypher it all again!


Some are double sided!


Notes on shaft differences in th bible

Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:04 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:04 pm linkquote
Re: Needles & seats
SubEtherBASS wrote:
The needle with spring is pretty cool, wonder if they are avail for a 24/24?
You can use that same needle in an SI as long as you have the matching Cosa (or DRT etc) 5.2mm float bowl lid. I have one on mine.

I guess you were flooding so much that even though the main jet was small there was plenty of fuel getting through and stopping a lean situation?
Make sure you do the jetting tonight... you'll be very unpopular if you try to do it on the rally!
Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:35 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:35 pm linkquote
Re: Needles & seats
Ginch wrote:
SubEtherBASS wrote:
The needle with spring is pretty cool, wonder if they are avail for a 24/24?
You can use that same needle in an SI as long as you have the matching Cosa (or DRT etc) 5.2mm float bowl lid. I have one on mine.

I guess you were flooding so much that even though the main jet was small there was plenty of fuel getting through and stopping a lean situation?
Make sure you do the jetting tonight... you'll be very unpopular if you try to do it on the rally!
I am going to put a 122 before heading to the pub, & tweak from there, so should be setup bu morning... Will leave the rest the same
Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:43 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:43 am linkquote
the 3 R's... Revs, Resistance, Reality
SubEtherBASS wrote:
Option "B"
Primary: 24/63
1st: 12/55
2nd: 13/40
3rd: 17/37
4th: 21/37

The speeds vs revs are as follows...
Revs: 5000...6000...6500...7000...7500...8000...8500.
1st:....29......35......38......41.......44.......47.......50
2nd:...44......52......57......61.......65.......70.......74
3rd:...62......74.......80......86......92.......99.......105
4th:...76......92.......99......107.....114.....122.....130km/h

Rev drop between gears (otherwise known as: will it stay on the pipe?")
1-2= 2500-2800rpm drop
2-3= 2500rpm drop
3-4= 1500rpm drop
So, after a good lengthy ride this past weekend, fully loaded & mostly as a cruisy pace (leader was goin 85kmh on GPS)... These are the results...

Revs: the revs were down a bit, but i guessed that as still need to book a dyno, & rebuilt carb (fuel was pouring out) night before rally, then there was an airleak (revs would stay high between gears, & after 20-30 sec at lights the revs would go up), so it was a sedate (for me) ride... Potential revs vs actual revs do differ,& in reality its always goin to be lower.

Resistance: wind, hills, other riders, riding a brick, rider & luggage weight, friction, scoot components age & numerous other factors cause resistance... Which in reality is more than you expect.

Reality: while a calculator is a great thing, its a rough guide only, & even physics change the outcome.

These are my REAL results (as much as i could remember & write down while riding...

There is a nice rev range, just below the powerband, which if you sit there, its easy (from those revs) to accelerate, get up a hill, pass someone,or simply take-off into the distance ... However its easy to sit & cruise at this speed/rev all day & watch the scenery.

Above that there is the powerband, where fun is to be had & egos enlarged... However its only for shorter periods & generally for accelerating quickly, going up hills , pass etc, but unlikely the motor will last 100's of constant kms at this range.

Then there is MAX speed/revs, the bit you use on real steep bits, or where you want to be right in the powerband (if your gears are spaced too far apart), or when you need to extract every possible rev to hang on the lower gear till after the guy on the harley changes first & loses momentum, which is short-term thing & will make your motor explode/fail/cook real quickly!

... So what was the REALITY of Speedys setup?

125 & 122 relate to differences due to a jet change.
Top rev appears to be 7000-7500rpm (likely more, but counteracted by additional weight).
3rd will rev more than 4th as there is less load & motor has better ratios vs resistances, i guess this is why dyno results are done in 3rd gear.

... So what is to be learnt?

When calculating gearing & Revs (using aforementioned calculator), use 4500-6000 as your cruising range, 6000-7000 as your powerband, & 7000-7500 as top revs... Then you will be in a realistic reality.
Yeah, it will be quicker without so much luggage, & after a damn good tune, but thats a bonus!
Perfection was 84kmh in 4th, it seemed to keep going back to that speed on its own, then goe all antsy trying to bolt!


Apologies it is only hand scrawled, but typing on this stupid thing takes too long!

Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:39 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:39 pm linkquote
Reality in Chart Form
I played with the calculator again... & here are the results:


Cruising... 5000rpm
bottom end of 'Sweet Spot', it will chug away happily here.


Sweet Spot... 5500rpm
This is the speed it wants to sit at all day long
& still can 'get on the pipe' whenever required


Revvy... 6000rpm
where the REAL pulling power is
the 'Power Band' (or was that Rubber Band?) is about here.


Top Speeds... 7000rpm
Yip, the motor revs more than 7000rpm, but actual speed is more like these figures

Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:46 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:46 pm linkquote
How 'bout bungin on a 10"?
This years Mille is in W.A. - home of long straight roads... so for the Mille it would be great to have more top-end speed... the simplest way to get it is to put on a 10" rear...
So here are the results...
Remember: it will accelerate slower, have less torque on the hills & overall will be harder to maintain a speed if there is wind/hill/any reason to slow down. so this 'jump' in ratios is not ideal... it would be better to change the primary drive, but I don't want to do that, as my general riding is at a slower pace.

'Others' feel free to elaborate on what happened last time I used this setup!


Cruising/loading... 5000rpm


Sweetish Spot... 5500rpm


(not so) revvy... 6000rpm


(yeah right) top speed... 7000rpm

Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:08 pm

Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3319
Location: Nashville
 
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3319
Location: Nashville
Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:08 pm linkquote
As long as you're playing with gearing, here's a gearing calculator spreadsheet I built when I was building out my Stella.

I did it for a number of reasons: I didn't like having to re-enter all my non-stock parts every time I used it; I didn't like being unable to save out my scenarios using the online calculator; I didn't quite trust some of the inputs compared to my own; and because I found the French to be distracting when using it.

Just edit the bolded green values to reflect your setup and it should do the rest of the work for you.

Here's a dropbox link b/c MV won't let me upload an excel or libreoffice file.

Vespa Gearing Calculator

Enjoy!
Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:49 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8080
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:49 pm linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
As long as you're playing with gearing, here's a gearing calculator spreadsheet I built when I was building out my Stella.

I did it for a number of reasons: I didn't like having to re-enter all my non-stock parts every time I used it; I didn't like being unable to save out my scenarios using the online calculator; I didn't quite trust some of the inputs compared to my own; and because I found the French to be distracting when using it.

Just edit the bolded green values to reflect your setup and it should do the rest of the work for you.

Here's a dropbox link b/c MV won't let me upload an excel or libreoffice file.

Vespa Gearing Calculator

Enjoy!
It looks good Chandlerman, thanks! Anyone else using Windows - don't let Excel convert it from .ods because it breaks the cell functions. At least it did for me. I used a free online converter and it works a treat.
Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:39 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:39 am linkquote
Ginch wrote:
chandlerman wrote:
As long as you're playing with gearing, here's a gearing calculator spreadsheet I built when I was building out my Stella.

I did it for a number of reasons: I didn't like having to re-enter all my non-stock parts every time I used it; I didn't like being unable to save out my scenarios using the online calculator; I didn't quite trust some of the inputs compared to my own; and because I found the French to be distracting when using it.

Just edit the bolded green values to reflect your setup and it should do the rest of the work for you.

Here's a dropbox link b/c MV won't let me upload an excel or libreoffice file.

Vespa Gearing Calculator

Enjoy!
It looks good Chandlerman, thanks! Anyone else using Windows - don't let Excel convert it from .ods because it breaks the cell functions. At least it did for me. I used a free online converter and it works a treat.
I like it too... Congrats.
Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:49 am

Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3319
Location: Nashville
 
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3319
Location: Nashville
Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:49 am linkquote
Thanks, guys!

That's weird about it not loading into Excel correctly.

Here's an Excel version which I think should work.

Vespa Gearing Calculator, Excel version
Tue May 17, 2016 4:47 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Tue May 17, 2016 4:47 am linkquote
Flywheel keyway issue.
I accidentally posted this in the wrong post... So here it is here...

Went for a ride last week, seemed like ran you of fuel.
Had a quick look today & noticed the flywheel nut had a few shiny threads showing & was running on cover.
Pulled off VespaTronic & found nut was finger tight & flywheel was half off... Then found sheared key.
Sadly its worn the keyway!
Hopefully this time i will escape without having to get a new crank.... Fingers crossed

Now the JB Weld is in place, ill let it (really) harden for a few days, then get out the valve-grinding paste & lap the flywheel nice an snug


Noticed nut was loose & flywheel was rubbing on shroud


Found the key broken


Munched keyway


JB Weld & wee pointy thing to push/manipulate/shape.
Left the wee groves there, which will make grinding/lapping far easier


Smooth & tight again

Tue May 17, 2016 5:23 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5920
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5920
Location: So Cal
Tue May 17, 2016 5:23 am linkquote
Atta boy!

What Have You JB Welded?
Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:29 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:29 am linkquote
JB success!
Yip, the flywheel keyway repair has worked!
Now I'm gonna big out the other Mazza crank & try it again, as I'm pretty sure I've got a near-new race one out there somewhere with the same issue... Fingers crossed.
Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:48 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:48 am linkquote
New PHBH, same Old problem...
I decided to start again with the carb, so brought a new PHBH28 for Speedy.
It was from a local shop, & was on an awesome special (it appeared to be NOS), oddly it arrived with no floats! & the wrong escutcheon (look it up if you don't know what it is) on the bowl, which were odd things to be missing...
After a bit of thought I remembered buying the missing parts from the same shop a few years ago, so guess I was destined to own it all, eventually.

Needle was different (far thinner) than I had been using, jet was Much the same, idle jet was tiny (compared to what is currently in there), but ive put it the new bits in it as a starting point.
Got it running (finally had a working choke!) & it's revving lots, & stalling at idle/low-revs.
Did use the snake-something-a-rather twistie top thingee off the old carb, as could not find fitting for plunger cover/cap.... & noticed if I blew through where the cable goes & blocked off the other end air would come out the swivel!
Same thing happens when cap is on & blew into intake, but blocked output.
So assume if air can escape, it can also enter & therefore cause leaning/revving.
I suspected this in the past & tried to tape/seal swivel cap, but problem persisted.
Guess the original Dellorto cap would seal, as its 1peice ... HOWEVER there is still a huge chance that air could enter from around where the cable enters the carb... Is this correct to assume?

Has anyone has issues with airleaks from top of PHBH carbs?
I've done a search, but there is not much on these carbs.

On a brighter note.... Speedy is running, & has a new carb! So tomorrow (today now, as its getting late/early) Speedy is going ot for some tuning & testing... & if it stops, I'll ensure I have fishin rods onboard & a trailer to get home.
Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:48 am

Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1698
Location: UK (South East)
 
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1698
Location: UK (South East)
Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:48 am linkquote
SEB, did you transfer the rubber 'o' ring from the original PHBH top into the Snakehead?
Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:40 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:40 pm linkquote
swa45 wrote:
SEB, did you transfer the rubber 'o' ring from the original PHBH top into the Snakehead?
Can't recall... I will have a look.
Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:39 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:39 pm linkquote
Replaced PHBH carb with 24/24 (cheers Ginchi for assistance & motivation)& 'leaning-out / Crazy revving' issue PERSISTED! Yip, many months of cursing the carb & it ended up being the flywheel seal leaking causing the leaning out!
Problem was found out with the smoke-test (shown in another post)... so off it went to get looked at (cheers Rolf for testing etc).

When rear wheel was checked, it was WOBBLING all over the place ( video later), so guess it was same cause.

LH side cover is LOOSE possibly due to VespaCross, so will tighten them up...
O/W all seems good

Clutch Plates need replacing, no wonder it was hard to change gears.

DRT Race clutch basket is an amazing piece of machining, however it's almost impossible to remove!

Ohh the joys of modification
  DoubleGood Vespa T-Shirts  

All Content Copyright 2005-2021 by Modern Vespa. All Rights Reserved.

Modern Vespa is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com.

Shop on Amazon Smile with Modern Vespa
[ Time: 0.0802s ][ Queries: 24 (0.0571s) ][ Debug on ][ 156 ][ Thing Two ]