Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:39 pm

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Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:39 pm linkquote
Yip, I guess this needs replacing...



Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:39 pm

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Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:39 pm linkquote
Running ohh so well.
Yip, Speedy is FINALLY running well & so far reliably.

After yet another rebuild (thank you ohh so much Rolf) , the motor is now running well, & fast again.

Crank was replaced due to bluing around bigend.
Cyl was replaced with a heavily modified 166cc Malossi.
Shaft was replaced with a non-twisted version.
New Polini Dellorto 28PHBH was fitted.
Needles & jetting were assessed & retuned (details later, once i find the info)

Now I get to enjoy Speedy again.

I'm getting fit for a wee ride to Queensland, then the Mille (1000km in 2 days)
Gears are more awesome Than I remember.
Minor bits to do only



Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:29 pm

Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 x2 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
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Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 x2 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:29 pm linkquote
Now there's a scoot done up right for a long haul, looks the part for sure and sounds like the mechanicals are in perfect order or soon will be. I especially like your be-kind-to-my-ass seat mods and trendy safety taped headlite.
Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:50 pm

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Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:50 pm linkquote
V oodoo wrote:
Now there's a scoot done up right for a long haul, looks the part for sure and sounds like the mechanicals are in perfect order or soon will be. I especially like your be-kind-to-my-ass seat mods and trendy safety taped headlite.
That pic was while on the VIC Mille, riding with my awesome friend Ginchi (as we like riding together whenever we can) hat was a temp seat (I picked it up from Sam Mai in Bangkok - if anyone goes there, I can recommend him & put you in contact... He got the LML/Vespa shop to open on a Sunday specially for me! It's now with Ginchi), now it's got my luxurious (& damn expensive) king & queen seat back on it.... There are some pics on following post... Yeah LOTS of pics, as its designed to 'look' different from every angle... Ohh, & cost somewhere in the 4-figure range to get the precision ulpholstery done (I only found 2 places willing to try it!)

Ode to Speedy - hand-cut crank & points? (Page 5)
Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:16 pm

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a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86, a not so normal pts100 '82 and a red lipstick '74 sprint
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:16 pm linkquote
still its look awesome Brother C
Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:01 pm

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Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:01 pm linkquote
More thoughts behind my GEARBOX choices
as you would have read, I spent a LOT of time working out gearing for my VBC & think I've created the ideal "open road" gearing for what I am trying to acheive, but working within a budget. primary was goin to be replaced no matter what, & I started by working out which to use by looking at speed/revs/torque that was needed for

1st was also retained, & not much use around the city, as it's slow slow slow off the line, but kicks in at (I guess) 15km/h only, but goes till 35-50km/h.
2nd was made much longer (ie replaced), so it was close to 3rd, so scoot would stay on the pipe
3rd, was what I worked on the most to ensure it was fast (I wanted to do 90-100km/h in 3rd) & on the pipe PLUS had good torque for hills, there as soon as it came out of 2nd it needed to GO GO GO.
PLUS, as I had a budget (it was about $1300aud for my "ideal" setup, but blowing that much on a gearbox alone meant other components had to be compromised) this ALL had to be achieved using the ORIGINAL 3rd.
4th, well this was the fun one...
A: knowing a LONG 4th is pointless due to never being able to get on the pipe,
B: long 4th = having no torque, there are pts of hills where I ride
C: speed limit here is 100km/h so going 130+ will just cost me more speeding fines , so 110-115km/h was the designed top speed (so far 118km/h is "normal top, with 124km being the "downhill tailwind top")
D: 8" wheels!
E: scoot/gearbox was not designed for city riding
F: Removing 1 tooth (ie T5 4th) was never a consideration....
G: knew I had to buy a 4th no matter what option I took meant $$ was not a concern...

there had to be a better option...
So I played & played with the calculator, & decided knocking a few teeth off 4th was the best solution

Now Speedy has a full custom close ratio box!

There may be a bit of helpful info in this thread
modify VBC 2-port - Speedy desperately needs a NEW CRANK!
NOTE: I'm working with 8" wheels.

Most here will recommend the "T5 4th", which is merely 1 tooth less... But that's coz they are following the crowd & basically Unimaginative, or don't have a long primary.

My recommendation is to knock 2 or 3 teeth off 4th... Make 3rd & 4th as close as possible, then it's always on the pipe & pulls. Up hills whenever the revs drop, I simply bung it into 3rd, & it's off again

AnaKey runs 10" with a long primary, but like yours, can't get on the pipe in 4th unless downhill with tailwind... But bugger me, when it does it's a beast! Top GPS speed: 140km/h!

I wrote this elsewhere, but think it also needed to be here
Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:03 pm

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Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:03 pm linkquote
DYNO day
After about 3yrs in the planning (well, waiting till motor actually worked!)
The proof is in the pudding... Next Wednesday is DYNO DAY.
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:35 am

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Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:35 am linkquote
SoCalGuy wrote:
SubEtherBASS wrote:
... hmmm, how fast is 'too fast' on 8" wheels?
Probably a good idea to stay within the speed rating of your tires... Heidenau K75's have an "M" rating, which is 130 km/h.
Well, I better get better tyres then huh?
But these ones appear to be what I'm running anyway!
Lucky I buttoned off while on the Dyno!

"Tyres; Heidenau K75, 3.50-8" 46M, TT (they had the highest speed rating)"

Last edited by SubEtherBASS on Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:44 am; edited 2 times in total
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:36 am

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Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:36 am linkquote
SubEtherBASS wrote:
here is the FINAL gearing
GPS said top was 117km/hr on first day, & it was quicker on day 2... Or so the GPS told me as it seized...

Hardest bit was remembering if i was in 3rd or 4th... 1200rpm rev drop between gears sure ensures the power stays on!
Im stoked at the final gearing setup... But for higher speed it would be tempting to get a longer primary.... But for twisties going 2-3-4 while under full power was simply awesome... Damn impressive!
In the end the gears (& budget) stayed as they were... Now many miles later I'm happy...

Last edited by SubEtherBASS on Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:46 am; edited 1 time in total
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:38 am

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Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:38 am linkquote
Re: Final set-up (or what I can remember of it)
This is the final Gearing:
Primary Drive: 24/63 Malossi (as they were the only ones that did it!)
PX xmas, with following: 12/57 (12.4), 13/40 (8.1), 17/37 (5.73), 21/37 (4.63)
1st is standard, 2nd is exceptionally long, 3rd is standard, 4th is exceptionally short


Well... Now it's official & may the dyno results back it all up...

Last edited by SubEtherBASS on Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:30 am; edited 3 times in total
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:40 am

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Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:40 am linkquote
Re: Reality in Chart Form
SubEtherBASS wrote:
I played with the calculator again... & here are the results:
This is the gearing that is CURRENTLY being used...
Calculated PRIOR to Dyno... On 8" wheels

They were originally noted somewhere back in this thread


5000rpm


5500rpm


6000rpm


7000rpm



Last edited by SubEtherBASS on Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:32 am; edited 3 times in total
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:54 am

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Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:54 am linkquote
Re: the 3 R's... Revs, Resistance, Reality
SubEtherBASS wrote:
SubEtherBASS wrote:
Option "B"
Primary: 24/63
1st: 12/55
2nd: 13/40
3rd: 17/37
4th: 21/37

The speeds vs revs are as follows...
Revs: 5000...6000...6500...7000...7500...8000...8500.
1st:....29......35......38......41.......44.......47.......50
2nd:...44......52......57......61.......65.......70.......74
3rd:...62......74.......80......86......92.......99.......105
4th:...76......92.......99......107.....114.....122.....130km/h

Rev drop between gears (otherwise known as: will it stay on the pipe?")
1-2= 2500-2800rpm drop
2-3= 2500rpm drop
3-4= 1500rpm drop
So, after a good lengthy ride this past weekend, fully loaded & mostly as a cruisy pace (leader was goin 85kmh on GPS)... These are the results...

Revs: the revs were down a bit, but i guessed that as still need to book a dyno, & rebuilt carb (fuel was pouring out) night before rally, then there was an airleak (revs would stay high between gears, & after 20-30 sec at lights the revs would go up), so it was a sedate (for me) ride... Potential revs vs actual revs do differ,& in reality its always goin to be lower.

Resistance: wind, hills, other riders, riding a brick, rider & luggage weight, friction, scoot components age & numerous other factors cause resistance... Which in reality is more than you expect.

Reality: while a calculator is a great thing, its a rough guide only, & even physics change the outcome.

These are my REAL results (as much as i could remember & write down while riding...

There is a nice rev range, just below the powerband, which if you sit there, its easy (from those revs) to accelerate, get up a hill, pass someone,or simply take-off into the distance ... However its easy to sit & cruise at this speed/rev all day & watch the scenery.

Above that there is the powerband, where fun is to be had & egos enlarged... However its only for shorter periods & generally for accelerating quickly, going up hills , pass etc, but unlikely the motor will last 100's of constant kms at this range.

Then there is MAX speed/revs, the bit you use on real steep bits, or where you want to be right in the powerband (if your gears are spaced too far apart), or when you need to extract every possible rev to hang on the lower gear till after the guy on the harley changes first & loses momentum, which is short-term thing & will make your motor explode/fail/cook real quickly!

... So what was the REALITY of Speedys setup?

125 & 122 relate to differences due to a jet change.
Top rev appears to be 7000-7500rpm (likely more, but counteracted by additional weight).
3rd will rev more than 4th as there is less load & motor has better ratios vs resistances, i guess this is why dyno results are done in 3rd gear.

... So what is to be learnt?

When calculating gearing & Revs (using aforementioned calculator), use 4500-6000 as your cruising range, 6000-7000 as your powerband, & 7000-7500 as top revs... Then you will be in a realistic reality.
Yeah, it will be quicker without so much luggage, & after a damn good tune, but thats a bonus!
Perfection was 84kmh in 4th, it seemed to keep going back to that speed on its own, then goe all antsy trying to bolt!
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:56 am

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Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:56 am linkquote
Re: Reality in Chart Form
SubEtherBASS wrote:
I played with the calculator again... & here are the results:
Initial calculations with 10" tyres @ 7000rpm.

Calculated before Dyno





Last edited by SubEtherBASS on Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:34 am; edited 1 time in total
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:59 am

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Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:59 am linkquote
Other bits ...
Now using BGM Adjustable front shock.

AWESOME! So far worked out that surfaces change by the road, so often change tension to suit & it can make a HUGE difference. Adjustment is usually 1-3 clicks, in total using up to a 6-7 click range.

Top speed seem on 2x (wireless & wired) calibrated speedos I have seen 119km/h showing... Then opened throttle fully... & decided looking aT th road Was a far better idea... That was on 8" !

Last edited by SubEtherBASS on Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:52 am; edited 2 times in total
Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:09 am

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Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:09 am linkquote
Re: They arrived
SubEtherBASS wrote:
YAY, the new floats arrived, plus a clear bowl, so it will be easy to see whats happening inside & where the fuel level sits.
now to fit it over the weekend & go for a ride. Def will start with the HEAVY one, as it simply makes more sense in my eyes.
Was having a HUGE issue with "running out of fuel" cutting out at the bottom of every hill... Then it cleared 300m later! It has caused 1x seize while kaning it after a petrol stil, on a hill!
-----
Both Polini clear carb bowls have discoloured, to match the oil I was using at the time.
Both have now warped to the point of large leaks, & it's obvious to look at.
One day I will (when partner is away) put them in the oven & soften them up, put a waitstaff on them & see what happens.
-----
Had to change back to original black bowls...
Spotted the height differed, about 1 to 2mm (measured by a qualified eye, then completely forgot results" eye) .. Put on deeper black bowl...
Problem goes away, gofig!





Last edited by SubEtherBASS on Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:16 am

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Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:16 am linkquote
Re: Running ohh so well.
SubEtherBASS wrote:
Yip, Speedy is FINALLY running well & so far reliably.

After yet another rebuild (thank you ohh so much Rolf) , the motor is now running well, & fast again.

Crank was replaced due to bluing around bigend.
Cyl was replaced with a heavily modified 166cc Malossi.
Shaft was replaced with a non-twisted version.
New Polini Dellorto 28PHBH was fitted.
Needles & jetting were assessed & retuned (details later, once i find the info)

Now I get to enjoy Speedy again.

I'm getting fit for a wee ride to Queensland, then the Mille (1000km in 2 days)
Gears are more awesome Than I remember.
Minor bits to do only
Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:09 am

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Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:09 am linkquote
Re: the 3 R's... Revs, Resistance, Reality
SubEtherBASS wrote:
SubEtherBASS wrote:
SubEtherBASS wrote:
Option "B"
Primary: 24/63
1st: 12/55
2nd: 13/40
3rd: 17/37
4th: 21/37

The speeds vs revs are as follows...
Revs: 5000...6000...6500...7000...7500...8000...8500.
1st:....29......35......38......41.......44.......47.......50
2nd:...44......52......57......61.......65.......70.......74
3rd:...62......74.......80......86......92.......99.......105
4th:...76......92.......99......107.....114.....122.....130km/h

Rev drop between gears (otherwise known as: will it stay on the pipe?")
1-2= 2500-2800rpm drop
2-3= 2500rpm drop
3-4= 1500rpm drop
So, after a good lengthy ride this past weekend, fully loaded & mostly as a cruisy pace (leader was goin 85kmh on GPS)... These are the results...

Revs: the revs were down a bit, but i guessed that as still need to book a dyno, & rebuilt carb (fuel was pouring out) night before rally, then there was an airleak (revs would stay high between gears, & after 20-30 sec at lights the revs would go up), so it was a sedate (for me) ride... Potential revs vs actual revs do differ,& in reality its always goin to be lower.

Resistance: wind, hills, other riders, riding a brick, rider & luggage weight, friction, scoot components age & numerous other factors cause resistance... Which in reality is more than you expect.

Reality: while a calculator is a great thing, its a rough guide only, & even physics change the outcome.

These are my REAL results (as much as i could remember & write down while riding...

There is a nice rev range, just below the powerband, which if you sit there, its easy (from those revs) to accelerate, get up a hill, pass someone,or simply take-off into the distance ... However its easy to sit & cruise at this speed/rev all day & watch the scenery.

Above that there is the powerband, where fun is to be had & egos enlarged... However its only for shorter periods & generally for accelerating quickly, going up hills , pass etc, but unlikely the motor will last 100's of constant kms at this range.

Then there is MAX speed/revs, the bit you use on real steep bits, or where you want to be right in the powerband (if your gears are spaced too far apart), or when you need to extract every possible rev to hang on the lower gear till after the guy on the harley changes first & loses momentum, which is short-term thing & will make your motor explode/fail/cook real quickly!

... So what was the REALITY of Speedys setup?

125 & 122 relate to differences due to a jet change.
Top rev appears to be 7000-7500rpm (likely more, but counteracted by additional weight).
3rd will rev more than 4th as there is less load & motor has better ratios vs resistances, i guess this is why dyno results are done in 3rd gear.

... So what is to be learnt?

When calculating gearing & Revs (using aforementioned calculator), use 4500-6000 as your cruising range, 6000-7000 as your powerband, & 7000-7500 as top revs... Then you will be in a realistic reality.
Yeah, it will be quicker without so much luggage, & after a damn good tune, but thats a bonus!
Perfection was 84kmh in 4th, it seemed to keep going back to that speed on its own, then goe all antsy trying to bolt!
These seem pretty accurate... Hmmm... More revs than I thought



Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:30 am

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Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:30 am linkquote
Here it is... The OFFICIAL DYNO RESULTS
Here is how I see it...

Grunt;
Highest = 14.4 hp
Amount in "usable rev range" = 10 hp

& the all important... SPEED !

1st = 34km/h (defo not full throttle)
2nd = 61 km/h (ditto)
3rd = 32 km/h to 108 km/h (fuk yeah!)
4th = about 45 km/h to 132 km/h (OMG that sounds fun, yet mildly scary)


Not bad for a wee 2-port VBC 150 motor!

Note: 1st & 2nd didn't get seperate runs, as only 3rd & 4th are checked... Ohh well.

I'm amazed that the calcs worked, it just appears to be revving about 8500 rpm, but I only calculated 7000rpm.

As you may see... In 4th I was watching the Dyno speed & saw.. 120, 125, 128... Revs getting higher... Then thought: Ohh well may as well see if it will go 130... Yip, damn that's really revving now... Button off time, I've got about 3000km to ride in a few days... That's enough.
Result: 132 km/h & STILL pushing 10 hp ! YEEHAA !
[/u]


On paper.

Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:12 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:12 pm linkquote
Now you need to check your timing at those peak revs and see that it's within spec... we need to do something about the crazy overheating.
Do you know what revs it is doing at the peak?
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:53 pm

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Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:53 pm linkquote
Ginch wrote:
Now you need to check your timing at those peak revs and see that it's within spec... we need to do something about the crazy overheating.
Do you know what revs it is doing at the peak?
Yip, the heat issue sure needs to. E sorted.

Sadly ScooterLab's machine has no rev counter
Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:57 am

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Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:57 am linkquote
Well n truly buggered the crank!
On Xmas day went for a ride with Il Ginchi & got a flat tyre, which caused Speedy to "fall over" (as speed), & for the rest of the ride the clutch was "rough", and hard to change UP thru gears, but, so what, I knew the plates were worn, so didn't care too much & continued.
Then, A few days ago I Went out for a ride on Speedy along Grand Ridge Rd with Il Ginchi... clutch was still the same, and adjustment did nothing, but riding without a clutch is something I'm very capable of doing, so ignored it, except it "slipped" a few times. Then it stopped (sounded like it ran out of fuel, or timing was out... as we were on a wonderful rough gravel road, jet was unblocked, & flywheel was (forcibly) removed (once jammed key was dislodged), it looked like it was not sitting "quite right", so sanded a bit & put back on ... riding along & lost drive yet again... so out came the spare plates (I always carry!) & off with the clutch cover... which had a bit of grey mulched metal under the cover (nothing unusual there!)
Well... then out came the clutch basket... grabbing it & having a look I realised I hadn't actually undone the nut yet!
Yip, out it came!
It had SNAPPED off the crankshaft! Which had a cool rounded, pointy end!

That was it for the days ride!
An hour ride asillion on the Green Ginch Mobile (where i may or may not have taken a nap) back to the van, then a return trip to pick up Speedy from deep in the bushes on the side pf the track we went!

I guess that's the end of that motor, till i can afford another VBC1 Crankshaft.

Info on the Recent Flywheel changes; Changing flywheel size... SUCCESS is COOLNESS!
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:32 am

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2511

 
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2511

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:32 am linkquote
Re: Well n truly buggered the crank!
SubEtherBASS wrote:
On Xmas day went for a ride with Il Ginchi & got a flat tyre, which caused Speedy to "fall over" (as speed), & for the rest of the ride the clutch was "rough", and hard to change UP thru gears, but, so what, I knew the plates were worn, so didn't care too much & continued.
Then, A few days ago I Went out for a ride on Speedy along Grand Ridge Rd with Il Ginchi... clutch was still the same, and adjustment did nothing, but riding without a clutch is something I'm very capable of doing, so ignored it, except it "slipped" a few times. Then it stopped (sounded like it ran out of fuel, or timing was out... as we were on a wonderful rough gravel road, jet was unblocked, & flywheel was (forcibly) removed (once jammed key was dislodged), it looked like it was not sitting "quite right", so sanded a bit & put back on ... riding along & lost drive yet again... so out came the spare plates (I always carry!) & off with the clutch cover... which had a bit of grey mulched metal under the cover (nothing unusual there!)
Well... then out came the clutch basket... grabbing it & having a look I realised I hadn't actually undone the nut yet!
Yip, out it came!
It had SNAPPED off the crankshaft! Which had a cool rounded, pointy end!

That was it for the days ride!
An hour ride asillion on the Green Ginch Mobile (where i may or may not have taken a nap) back to the van, then a return trip to pick up Speedy from deep in the bushes on the side pf the track we went!

I guess that's the end of that motor, till i can afford another VBC1 Crankshaft.

Info on the Recent Flywheel changes; Changing flywheel size... SUCCESS is COOLNESS!
Well it really sucks that you're down but on another note I don't think its too late for beginning a narrator. Totally enjoyed the play by play. 8)
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:02 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:02 pm linkquote
At least the DRT Clutch is still ok!
Well, heres a pic... i put it back in the motor to ensure I didn't lose bits in the grass, so once i remove it again ill get better pics.



Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:38 am

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2813
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2813
Location: London UK
Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:38 am linkquote
Wow. That was some lucky break. Need a new crank but the clutch escaped without a scratch.
Was that crank a 60mm? If not speedy could be speedier.
Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:09 am

Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3319
Location: Nashville
 
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3319
Location: Nashville
Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:09 am linkquote
Nothing there a little JBWeld won't fix!
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:01 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:01 am linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
Wow. That was some lucky break. Need a new crank but the clutch escaped without a scratch.
Was that crank a 60mm? If not speedy could be speedier.
Worb modified, Mazza full race from memory, I dislike long cranks due to extra distance travel of piston moving causing higher temp/speed of piston in barrel, plus options for VBC1 (small flywheel taper) cranks is limited.

Last edited by SubEtherBASS on Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:12 am; edited 1 time in total
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:07 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:07 am linkquote
Home renovating is almost done.. reward will be Speedy time
I've spent the past year renovating the home we brought, and once complete I may be able to spend some time on Speedy (once the PX is finished & sold that is).
As budget is "limited " ( ie non-existent), I've sourced a (free)used standard VBC1 crank.... but as you know, that won't work for Speedy... it needs MODIFICATION, lots of it! Ive got the current one as a template, an angle grinder, dremel, burrs & whatever other tools may be required to replicate a Worb-something Mazza race crank, with further mods just for fun...

Does anyone have tips or expertise in the cutting of cranks that they could share with me?
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:10 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:10 am linkquote
Ignition issues...
There have been ongoing issues with overheating, pinking, possibly timing issues with the Vespatronic, and I'm sick of it... so have sourced a set of points ignition (from same generous person with the crank) that should fit, so I'm planning to change back to points to see how it goes!
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:12 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:12 am linkquote
Rimming...
Due to ongoing problems with spinning the tyre on rim , causing the tube valve to shear off, i also plan to replace the rims!

So much to do, lets hope quarantine lasts long enough!
Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:34 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:34 am linkquote
Its FINALLY time for a NEW CRANKSHAFT...
yip, while I really want to cut my own crankshaft, I simply don't have the time to get my butt into gear & do so... .therefore I just need to buy one!

Decisions, decisions... Well, there are not too many for a VBC1 (small flywheel taper) that would be "suitable" for Speedy's Motor... If you know anything about me or Speedy, you will know that I don't want no "standard" crank, so its gotta be something "special" without breaking the bank ... so what do you recommend? what brand? where from?

parameters:
must be able to be shipped to Australia
must be for VBC1 (small flywheel taper - ie NOT for a P-series)
must be "race" (or better)
must be worthy of being in Speedy's motor
preferably 57mm stroke (I've had this discussion before & don't really want long-stroke)

I like the Serie Pro, by Worb5, but cannot find their VBC1 version

Cheers for input
Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:29 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:29 am linkquote
2 options
well, I've worked out 2 options...


BUT it appears that Part no.: 45131000 is the ONLY option, as it suits the VespaTronic that is on the motor (& i'm considering going back to points!)
valve timing: 118/​6 post TDC

the problem with Part no.: 45135100 is that is it for PX ignition, which I'm not running
valve timing: 120/​10 post TDC
modified for PX igniton


SIP Crank - 45131000


SIP Crank - 45134100

Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:48 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5920
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5920
Location: So Cal
Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:48 am linkquote
Id go with 45131000 and chop a few degrees off.
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:01 am

Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1698
Location: UK (South East)
 
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1698
Location: UK (South East)
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:01 am linkquote
The one with the PX taper is a useful upgrade and very good IMO, and PX ignitions are plentiful, either new or used. That said, it does seem a shame to not use the Vespatronic
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:30 am

Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3319
Location: Nashville
 
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3319
Location: Nashville
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:30 am linkquote
swa45 wrote:
The one with the PX taper is a useful upgrade and very good IMO, and PX ignitions are plentiful, either new or used. That said, it does seem a shame to not use the Vespatronic
I converted my Spring and VBB both to PX tapers, but it worked cost-wise because I was buying new ignitions, too. Replacing a vespatronic costs a lot more than a new crank.

So, yeah, I'm with SoCal...buy the small cone and chop a few degrees off.

Is the rotary pad already opened?
What sort of intake duration are you looking for on this build?
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:30 am

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2813
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2813
Location: London UK
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:30 am linkquote
What's the issue with buying a 60mm? Will give quite a bit more power than a 57. Can't see a downside.
Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:46 am

Enthusiast
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 94
Location: Texas
 
Enthusiast
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 94
Location: Texas
Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:46 am linkquote
I can't vouch for a company to buy from for your situation, but maybe I can give you some background. I recently went down the crankshaft path to figure out who really made what (but for P series).

First: Albero Motore or Alberi motore are Italian for crankshaft.

Below is Mazzy's official list of crankshafts for Vespa's:
https://www.nuovamazzucchelli.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/piaggio-alberi-a-motore.pdf

Possible options for you:
AMT-132
AMT-132 Race
AMT-133 (I think this is the modified P)
AMT-133/60 (I think this is the modified P)
AMT-135 (I think this is the modified P), I think this is a racy 133.

I think what you want is the AMT-132 RACE which I do not see on SIP's website. SIP relabels all the model numbers, but I still didn't see it.

I found it on some random Italian retailer's site, looks to have decent pics.
https://www.lavespadue.it/it/ricambi-accessori-per-vespa-ape/parti-motore/alberi-motore/albero-motore-mazzucchelli-amt-132-race-versione-racing-per-vespa-125-vnb-vba-gt-gtr-super-ts-150-vba-vbb-gl-sprint-veloce-super.1.25.1050.gp.13863.uw
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:59 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:59 am linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
What's the issue with buying a 60mm? Will give quite a bit more power than a 57. Can't see a downside.
Basically... the piston travels FURTHER each stroke(or revolution of the crank) therefore in the middle of the stroke its going FASTER, therefore there is more HEAT generated... not something I need more of
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:27 am

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2813
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2813
Location: London UK
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:27 am linkquote
And that faster opens the transfers earlier letting more fuel in, so it increases the power and runs cooler.
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:58 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:58 am linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
And that faster opens the transfers earlier letting more fuel in, so it increases the power and runs cooler.
Hmmmm.... i shal consider that though
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:01 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4045
Location: That bushfire place
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:01 am linkquote
Captcha wrote:
I can't vouch for a company to buy from for your situation, but maybe I can give you some background. I recently went down the crankshaft path to figure out who really made what (but for P series).

First: Albero Motore or Alberi motore are Italian for crankshaft.

Below is Mazzy's official list of crankshafts for Vespa's:
https://www.nuovamazzucchelli.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/piaggio-alberi-a-motore.pdf

Possible options for you:
AMT-132
AMT-132 Race
AMT-133 (I think this is the modified P)
AMT-133/60 (I think this is the modified P)
AMT-135 (I think this is the modified P), I think this is a racy 133.

I think what you want is the AMT-132 RACE which I do not see on SIP's website. SIP relabels all the model numbers, but I still didn't see it.

I found it on some random Italian retailer's site, looks to have decent pics.
https://www.lavespadue.it/it/ricambi-accessori-per-vespa-ape/parti-motore/alberi-motore/albero-motore-mazzucchelli-amt-132-race-versione-racing-per-vespa-125-vnb-vba-gt-gtr-super-ts-150-vba-vbb-gl-sprint-veloce-super.1.25.1050.gp.13863.uw
Thanks for that... it reminded me that I've brought AMT-132 RACE sometime in the past & pretty sure I was happy with it, don't recall what ended up happening with it though.. now to find one again
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