@miguel avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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@miguel avatar
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UTC quote
Trotter wrote:
Miguel wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
jimc wrote:
Nautiker wrote:
I'm a big fan of Volkswagen cars, but this was just dishonest & incredibly dumb... Whomever approved this 'scheme' needs to be publicly sacked...
I think they should be prosecuted and jailed if it was wilful deception.
Hard to imagine it being anything else. Some news outlets claim that some VW sources have conformed the matter.
I agree. Amazing this has been going on since 2009 and just coming to light. Send like many in the company must have known.

I sure get tired of people doing illegal things and then apologizing for it when they get caught. If they are so distraught over it she didn't they do before getting caught.

Best Miguel
And think about all those higher-ups in the company who dumped their stock and left the lower guys to eat a 20% drop and counting. It is criminal, and should be enforced.
This too!!
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UTC quote
Somewhere, tonight, Jeremy Clarkson is smiling.
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UTC quote
It's not that German government leaders haven't encouraged a more ethical approach to business practices. It's just that businesses don't care to listen.

http://www.dw.com/en/merkel-presses-business-leaders-on-ethical-practices/a-3409903
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UTC quote
Miguel wrote:
......
I sure get tired of people doing illegal things and then apologizing for it when they get caught. ....

Best Miguel
Brother, you hit the mark, and how!
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
This dog has a long tail!!!

In California these vehicles were sold illegally! = fines

Since they cannot pass the strict emission testing they cannot be re registered.
Who is going to belly up to the bar and provide alternate transportation ?

Caculate the lost value of each TDI vehicle?

According to VW 5,000,000 people in the U.S. visit their dealerships each year.
What loss will be seen here?

This decision was made at the top? Any jail time?

A recent article in the L.A. Times cites a 79% decrease in Certian cancers due to air pollution in California. Endangering public safety.

What a headache, a needlessly created by big egos, corporate greed? Surely stupidity isn't the case here. Ass Hats.
@tex avatar
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
VW is just taking one for the team. They all do it.
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UTC quote
This article http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a17430/ezra-dyer-volkswagen-diesel-controversy/ suggests that VW were the only company in the US selling diesel cars without AdBlue to reduces NOx emissions.

I don't know enough about the US car market to know if that's true or not, but in the UK it definitely wasn't the case.

Until a couple of months ago, vehicles had to comply with the Euro 5 emissions standard which had quite a bit higher NOx limit than the US and as such almost no diesels needed it.

A few months ago we went to Euro 6 which lowers the limit and now a lot more need Adblue to comply. It's still not quite as tight as the CARB standards though.
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UTC quote
When Connecticut started emissions testing for registration purposes 40 years ago, I would make the carburetor extra lean, add about 32 ounces of "Dry Gas" (ethanol) to the tank and get tested during the hottest time of day. That way my German made car would pass. The car would smell like I was burning corncobs.
Was that cheating?
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amateriat wrote:
Somewhere, tonight, Jeremy Clarkson is smiling.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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UTC quote
Let's look at this from another - legal - angle. The fact that those non-AdBlue diesels were poluting much more than legally allowed is a VW design problem. They could not fix that, so they exploited the silly tests, implemented by the various government agencies, apparently all over the world (over 11,000,000 VW diesels by now!). What they did was illegal. No question! Suits and big fines are due.

Now, the reason why those diesels were actually approved for the californian roads and in other countries, is, IMHO, the full resposibility of the authorities that implemented the flawed tests. Those cars should neither pass our Euro 6 tests, but did. They should test whether a car's emissions is within legal limits. We can safely assume we're talking about emissions when a car drives (that's the purpose of a car, driving). Obviously, the EPA, and many other countries' agencies do not measure how much a driving car pollutes. It's not that hard: stick the sensors on the exhaust, take along the equipment, drive and measure, say at various speeds and temps on a test track. Alas, they had to be informed by a third party, CARB, and even they by coincidence, that those cars are big polluters. They did not do their job. We can safely assume that many cars of many brands will not meet the standards if tested properly, all over the world.

Now, if I want clean air in my city, I presume my gov does proper tests before approving cars. I always found it pretty silly not to test such an imortant issue on a car while actually driving. Don't misunderstand, I condemn VW but it's like printing false money and the bank putting it into circulation without checking the notes properly. VW has cheated for years, but the agencies have failed for decades. God knows how much pollution they accepted in the past. Since the competitors of VW are shrouded in silence and refrain from comments (how weird) I believe all agencies should urgently re-think their car emissions test. If they don't, I'd find that pretty suspicous...
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UTC quote
FlandersWasp wrote:
Let's look at this from another - legal - angle. The fact that those non-AdBlue diesels were poluting much more than legally allowed is a VW design problem. They could not fix that, so they exploited the silly tests, implemented by the various government agencies, apparently all over the world (over 11,000,000 VW diesels by now!). What they did was illegal. No question! Suits and big fines are due.

Now, the reason why those diesels were actually approved for the californian roads and in other countries, is, IMHO, the full resposibility of the authorities that implemented the flawed tests. Those cars should neither pass our Euro 6 tests, but did. They should test whether a car's emissions is within legal limits. We can safely assume we're talking about emissions when a car drives (that's the purpose of a car, driving). Obviously, the EPA, and many other countries' agencies do not measure how much a driving car pollutes. It's not that hard: stick the sensors on the exhaust, take along the equipment, drive and measure, say at various speeds and temps on a test track. Alas, they had to be informed by a third party, CARB, and even they by coincidence, that those cars are big polluters. They did not do their job. We can safely assume that many cars of many brands will not meet the standards if tested properly, all over the world.

Now, if I want clean air in my city, I presume my gov does proper tests before approving cars. I always found it pretty silly not to test such an imortant issue on a car while actually driving. Don't misunderstand, I condemn VW but it's like printing false money and the bank putting it into circulation without checking the notes properly. VW has cheated for years, but the agencies have failed for decades. God knows how much pollution they accepted in the past. Since the competitors of VW are shrouded in silence and refrain from comments (how weird) I believe all agencies should urgently re-think their car emissions test. If they don't, I'd find that pretty suspicous...
look, all previously written from your side sound like you are somehow supprting VW in what they did

sorry, everybody else invested billions in development of next gen engines, only VW/Audi though that they could play with the design of LED lights endlessly and sell it as new technology

well, now they will eat the mud they dug themselfs into!

the only problem I see is that all these people who bought their products were betrayed, all those workers in VW which will loose the job are not guilty for decisions that their managers make and all the people in supporting industry will suffer as well

but there is no forgetting to VW as brand what they have done! was not mistake, was intentional!

and they should pay for it dearly!
UTC

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UTC quote
Yes, I've ridden BMW motorbikes recently. Nice riding and also prone to quality issues.
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UTC quote
PreddyBaer wrote:
look, all previously written from your side sound like you are somehow supprting VW in what they did
Nope , I don't support VW on this, condemn what they did and wan't them to pay for what they did, as you can clearly read. No idea where you get that. What I'm saying is that they are not the first and will not be the last if we don't start demanding serious test. Some fail to ask why it took so long: bad tests that should protected your and my environment. We should not refrain from thinking critically about all players involved for a thorough solution to avoid such things in the future, or did you really believe this case will be the end of consumer fraud? FYI, an open mind to a problem is something else than beeing subjective
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@silver_streak avatar
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UTC quote
FlandersWasp wrote:
Let's look at this from another - legal - angle. The fact that those non-AdBlue diesels were poluting much more than legally allowed is a VW design problem. They could not fix that, so they exploited the silly tests, implemented by the various government agencies, apparently all over the world (over 11,000,000 VW diesels by now!). What they did was illegal. No question! Suits and big fines are due.

Now, the reason why those diesels were actually approved for the californian roads and in other countries, is, IMHO, the full resposibility of the authorities that implemented the flawed tests. Those cars should neither pass our Euro 6 tests, but did. They should test whether a car's emissions is within legal limits. We can safely assume we're talking about emissions when a car drives (that's the purpose of a car, driving). Obviously, the EPA, and many other countries' agencies do not measure how much a driving car pollutes. It's not that hard: stick the sensors on the exhaust, take along the equipment, drive and measure, say at various speeds and temps on a test track. Alas, they had to be informed by a third party, CARB, and even they by coincidence, that those cars are big polluters. They did not do their job. We can safely assume that many cars of many brands will not meet the standards if tested properly, all over the world.

Now, if I want clean air in my city, I presume my gov does proper tests before approving cars. I always found it pretty silly not to test such an imortant issue on a car while actually driving. Don't misunderstand, I condemn VW but it's like printing false money and the bank putting it into circulation without checking the notes properly. VW has cheated for years, but the agencies have failed for decades. God knows how much pollution they accepted in the past. Since the competitors of VW are shrouded in silence and refrain from comments (how weird) I believe all agencies should urgently re-think their car emissions test. If they don't, I'd find that pretty suspicous...
One of my tasks in my former job as head of the research group at the US Federal Communications Commission Laboratory was developing the testing regime that measures the amount of radio frequency power that your cellphone puts into your skull to keep it from frying your brain. It's a very similar problem with very similar measurement and political issues.

From a measurement perspective, it would be nice to be able to do the measurements under real-world conditions, but that is totally impracticable unless one can find volunteers willing to have a probe inserted into all parts of their brain to collect readings at thousands of individual measurement points which could then be integrated into a total power absorption. And then there are further complicating factors like different skull sizes and different ways of holding the phone that drastically affect the results. So, a one-size-fits-all measurement procedure that can be done in a laboratory with a generic dummy head and a six-axis robot had to be developed.

From a political perspective, the engineers developing the measurement procedures work for a government agency that -- like it or not -- is continually under tremendous pressure from the industry it regulates both through direct lobbying of top agency officials and lobbying of the legislators who hold the agency's purse strings. The poor engineers' marching orders unfortunately contain stipulations to develop tests that are as little a burden on industry as possible, sometimes at the expense of scientific accuracy. And -- believe me -- when the industry's bottom line is at stake (as it certainly was in the cellphone case and surely is in the case of auto emissions as well) they are ready and willing to exert terrific pressure. This forced subversion of principled science to the profit motive is one of the reasons I became disgusted with my job and retired early.
@mpfrank avatar
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UTC quote
I have tried to keep out of this thread, but, oh well.

First, I think that what VW has done is reprehensible and I can't imagine that it won't have serious repercussions for the company. I also think that there should be legal consequences for individuals who are found to be responsible.

But...

Wait a minute, there's no "but". Above stands as written.

Thoughts:

I grew up in Los Angeles in the 1950s and 60s. There were many days when you couldn't inhale without serious shortness of breath and some pain; and your eyes would redden, water, and hurt. You could barely see down the block, let alone to the beautiful mountains that ring the L.A. basin. The only thing that changed this was government regulation with California taking the lead (Sorry if I'm getting political here). I would not wish to go back to those "good old days".

Someone on this thread compared this to EPA fuel-economy tests. It is true that the EPA doesn't test fuel usage under real-road conditions. But they seem to overestimate fuel efficiency by a fairly predictable amount (like Vespa speedometers overestimate speed) and, more importantly, any magazine, web site, etc., can easily report on real-road fuel use when they test the vehicle. And they do. This is not the case for pollution tests.

So this is not just a false advertising or economic issue, but one that directly affects people's health.

And they knew all of this.

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UTC quote
If the end result is that we don't have any more DIE-sel dumped on the roads to act as an ice-rink for us PTWs then I will shed no tears.

50%-ish of the vehicles in the EU are diesel, compared with 1%-ish in the US (apparently, taken from a news site). I hope the EU numbers fall to the US proportion PDQ.
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UTC quote
The consequences are not stiff enough to keep Corporations from doing harm. Wall Street is a prime example.

GREED rules the world, don't you know?
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UTC quote
From out in the Interwildernessweb:

"I used to work on emissions control software for one of the Big Three. 

"The engine control and emissions diagnostics software is incredibly complex. We had hundreds of software developers, calibrators, validation experts, etc., working on these efforts. If you worked on oxygen sensors or catalytic converters, or vehicle speed or really anything, the software would interface with dozens of other functional areas.

"There is absolutely no way that one or multiple emissions tests could be disabled without dozens of people knowing. Maybe hundreds. We would sometimes review single lines of code with dozens of engineers in the room, for fear that a specific emissions test wouldn't run appropriately in real-world conditions. 

So, in my somewhat educated opinion, there is simply no way that this effort didn't involve a concerted effort by many individuals, and I would expect the evidence to prove that out."
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Ford did something similar in the early seventies....they passed the US Federal emissions test at the speeds EPA specified, but not at other speeds. It was rather widely known then, but the media and EPA didn't jump on it like this now.

Yeah, VW cleverly took into account steering wheel input, etc. when they certified some of their TDi diesels on a dynamometer. And as a result people love the way the perform, and the fuel mileage they get, without having the complex AdBlue system. And you can breathe easily when driving behind one.

All newer vehicles are far far far far far cleaner burning now than those using antique tags, or driving behind a cigarette smoker.

I have more faith in VW than EPA and its contractors who poisoned US streams, and don't get me started on ethanol fuels and the Iowa caucus that supports ethanol fuels in the US. I have a carburetor bike now that has sat for one month with ethanol fuel and won't run because of a plugged pilot jet again.......grrrrr.

The VW TDi vehicles have appealed to me for sometime.....now might be the time to buy one

fried okra
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UTC quote
fried okra wrote:
The VW TDi vehicles have appealed to me for sometime.....now might be the time to buy one

fried okra
Unless you would buy a used one from a private party, you can't get one. VW and Audi has stopped sales of all new and used ones that don't comply.

As a note, this does not just apply to the 500K diesel VW/Audi's is the US, it also applies to 10.5M vehicles sold elsewhere.
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Yup, for sure would buy a resale from a private party......

fried okra
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UTC quote
Instead of blaming VW for making an efficient great running car, how about we blame the EPA for not conducting a thorough test. How about we cut the EPAs budget by 18 billion. Ha ha. Sorry for the rant. Evertime I sweat out a pollution test, that's the only time I have trouble breathing. I feel like the EPA is choking me.
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UTC quote
So how do you propose a thorough test? One that can be done yearly, in 1000s of locations and inexpensively by states that requires them.

Let's face it, if a company (or person) wants to cheat on ANY test, no matter how thorough, they will be able to find a way to do it. It is obvious (they have admitted it) that VW when out of their way to cheat. If they wanted to, they could have gamed any test that was presented to them.

If course we could do away with the EPA and be back to the way China now is with smog chocked cities.
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UTC quote
I have always had a good opinion of VW, and a soft spot in my heart for their cars. My first car as a teenaged kid was a VW bug. I have owned several more VWs thru the years including a diesel. I am sorry to see all of this happen, but I have no doubt VW will pay the price. And I don't just mean the financial price of fines and lawsuits. I mean the lost sales, lost customers, and lost brand loyalty that is the inevitable result of this mess.
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UTC quote
On the up-side, there will be a larger supply of VW turbodiesels in salvage yards... which would make nice upgrade engine swaps for old Vanagons. Even downrated to pass smog without cheating, they'd still be an upgrade over the original power plant (especially the anemic diesels from the early '80s).
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UTC quote
So when is the right time to by be stock. It will surely come back.

Best
Miguel
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UTC quote
Let he who has not defeated his evap canister cast the first stone.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Heard that the EPA wouldn't certify the 2016 Passat unless they stepped up.
They should have gone the "recall" route but at this level who knows if it would help. Sounds like they made a big ole mess
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UTC quote
Hi guys whats tragic is i,m not surprised,corporate chicanery is now endemic
the world is spiritually and morally bankrupt ,but hey never mind go for a ride
and sing a happy tune

george
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UTC quote
robinm wrote:
Paddlenround wrote:
I have personally owned four V-Dubs and all of them have been utter crap.
I have an old beetle I bought decades ago. I still runs fine. I don't see many other cars on the road from the early 70's but then again, perhaps other people can afford newer cars Out of curiosity, are you saying that American cars are built better than VW then?
Absolutely not. I am a dedicated Subaru owner. The VW purchases were always as either a second car. I am on my fourth Subaru wagon and it's unlikely I will ever buy another brand of car.
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UTC quote
Chasbro wrote:
Let he who has not defeated his evap canister cast the first stone.
I'll be happy to cast the first stone.

The evap canister was an ill-conceived bodge perpetrated by industry to meet the letter of a perfectly reasonable EPA/CARB regulation at the lowest possible cost. The fact that it didn't work for any other purpose than to pass the requirement was irrelevant to the industry. They don't care about clean air; they only care about keeping their markets open and maintaining their profit margins.
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UTC

Member
2009 Aprilla Scarabeo 500ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 46
Location: St Petersburg, Florida USA
 
Member
@rickyray avatar
2009 Aprilla Scarabeo 500ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 46
Location: St Petersburg, Florida USA
@silver_streak avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8758
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@silver_streak avatar
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8758
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
UTC quote
No bias there...

The fact that the article is published under a self-professed Libertarian masthead is pushing this discussion into the realm of politics.

Unfortunate.
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7194
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7194
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
Silver Streak wrote:
Chasbro wrote:
Let he who has not defeated his evap canister cast the first stone.
I'll be happy to cast the first stone.

The evap canister was an ill-conceived bodge perpetrated by industry to meet the letter of a perfectly reasonable EPA/CARB regulation at the lowest possible cost. The fact that it didn't work for any other purpose than to pass the requirement was irrelevant to the industry. They don't care about clean air; they only care about keeping their markets open and maintaining their profit margins.
OMG... the evil industry you're referring to employs, pays salaries, pays health benefits, contributes to retirement plans, pays billions in taxes, and puts food on the table for millions of people. Of course they care about keeping their markets open.
@silver_streak avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8758
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@silver_streak avatar
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8758
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Silver Streak wrote:
Chasbro wrote:
Let he who has not defeated his evap canister cast the first stone.
I'll be happy to cast the first stone.

The evap canister was an ill-conceived bodge perpetrated by industry to meet the letter of a perfectly reasonable EPA/CARB regulation at the lowest possible cost. The fact that it didn't work for any other purpose than to pass the requirement was irrelevant to the industry. They don't care about clean air; they only care about keeping their markets open and maintaining their profit margins.
OMG... the evil industry you're referring to employs, pays salaries, pays health benefits, contributes to retirement plans, pays billions in taxes, and puts food on the table for millions of people. Of course they care about keeping their markets open.
The key word here is ONLY -- which you've omitted altogether. I've got nothing against free enterprise as long as it strikes a balance between profit and the public good.
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7194
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7194
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
Silver Streak wrote:
SoCalGuy wrote:
Silver Streak wrote:
Chasbro wrote:
Let he who has not defeated his evap canister cast the first stone.
I'll be happy to cast the first stone.

The evap canister was an ill-conceived bodge perpetrated by industry to meet the letter of a perfectly reasonable EPA/CARB regulation at the lowest possible cost. The fact that it didn't work for any other purpose than to pass the requirement was irrelevant to the industry. They don't care about clean air; they only care about keeping their markets open and maintaining their profit margins.
OMG... the evil industry you're referring to employs, pays salaries, pays health benefits, contributes to retirement plans, pays billions in taxes, and puts food on the table for millions of people. Of course they care about keeping their markets open.
The key word here is ONLY -- which you've omitted altogether. I've got nothing against free enterprise as long as it strikes a balance between profit and the public good.
They struck a balance with the evap canister... it meets the EPA/CARB regs without driving the cost of scoots too high, which would have driven sales down, resulting in plant closures, layoffs, etc. What exactly do you suggest they should have done differently?
@silver_streak avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8758
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@silver_streak avatar
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8758
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Silver Streak wrote:
SoCalGuy wrote:
Silver Streak wrote:
Chasbro wrote:
Let he who has not defeated his evap canister cast the first stone.
I'll be happy to cast the first stone.

The evap canister was an ill-conceived bodge perpetrated by industry to meet the letter of a perfectly reasonable EPA/CARB regulation at the lowest possible cost. The fact that it didn't work for any other purpose than to pass the requirement was irrelevant to the industry. They don't care about clean air; they only care about keeping their markets open and maintaining their profit margins.
OMG... the evil industry you're referring to employs, pays salaries, pays health benefits, contributes to retirement plans, pays billions in taxes, and puts food on the table for millions of people. Of course they care about keeping their markets open.
The key word here is ONLY -- which you've omitted altogether. I've got nothing against free enterprise as long as it strikes a balance between profit and the public good.
They struck a balance with the evap canister... it meets the EPA/CARB regs without driving the cost of scoots too high, which would have driven sales down, resulting in plant closures, layoffs, etc. What exactly do you suggest they should have done differently?
As I said earlier, it met only the LETTER of the regulation, not the INTENT -- which is to prevent unburned hydrocarbons from entering the atmosphere... the leading cause of smog (something -- as a Southern Californian -- you should have been familiar with, especially if you were around before the Clean Air Act). The system industry came up with was intended only to pass the test, not to be a viable long-term solution to the problem. A system that -- in real-world use -- effectively prevents the vehicle from operating properly isn't a real solution at all, just a major aggravation to customers who've already paid for their scooters. There are ways to engineer a hydrocarbon-trapping or recirculation system that doesn't get clogged up every time someone overfills their gas tank... they just require some re-engineering of the fuel filler, which the manufacturers didn't want to do. Sure, it would have cost a bit more, but it would have solved the problem. Some of us care more about clean air than we do about spending a few extra bucks on the cost of a new scooter.
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7194
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7194
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
You didn't answer the question.
What exactly would you have done instead of an evap canister?
And what would the incremental cost be per scoot?
@dooglas avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 13462
Location: Oregon City, OR
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@dooglas avatar
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 13462
Location: Oregon City, OR
UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
You didn't answer the question.
Actually Silver Streak did a pretty good job of answering the question. You were the one who said that engineering a better fuel evaporation control system would drive up the cost of scooters so much that sales would drop, plants would close, workers would be laid off, etc. On what information did you base that contention?
⚠️ Last edited by Dooglas on UTC; edited 1 time
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