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If VW offered a simple software fix that rectified the problem but also gave the inevitable poorer performance would anyone take their car in? Would they still complain?
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robinm wrote:
If VW offered a simple software fix that rectified the problem but also gave the inevitable poorer performance would anyone take their car in? Would they still complain?
It has been brought up that once the recall is issued that owners will have to take the vehicle in for the recall. If the recall is not performed, federal and/or state agencies could deny registering (or renewing) that vehicle since it does not conform to emission standards.
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The operative phrase in the above comment is "could deny". That's a long way from " would deny".
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acejones wrote:
The operative phrase in the above comment is "could deny". That's a long way from " would deny".
I'm not sure the distance from "could" to "would" is all that far. What is the point of doing an emissions test on a vehicle that you know has been rigged to pass the test?
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acejones wrote:
The operative phrase in the above comment is "could deny". That's a long way from " would deny".
Not really. They already deny registration for cars that don't pass emissions tests in a number of states.
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FlandersWasp wrote:
[quote="spudster" He is still chairman of the board of directors of Porsche (owner of VW)! .
Uh, I think VW owns Porsche (not the other way around). I recall 2012?
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gregbenner wrote:
I think VW owns Porsche (not the other way around). I recall 2012?
Actually you are both right. Porsche is a division of Volkswagen, just like Audi - but Porsche SE is a large financial holding company that owns the whole shooting match.
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[quote="FlandersWasp"]
spudster wrote:
News Updates German & European press:
Meanwhile, VW chief Winterkorn did resign. There is however a funny detail to this. Some years ago, VW tried to take over Porsche, but in the end, Porsche took over VW. Now, Winterkorn is far from unemployed. He is still chairman of the board of directors of Porsche (owner of VW)! ..
Didn't realize that, good catch 8) Kind of surprised none of the local (US) news seem to focus on this (?) Or did I just miss it?

Will be interesting to see if he lasts the next few months
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gregbenner wrote:
Didn't realize that, good catch 8) Kind of surprised none of the local (US) news seem to focus on this (?) Or did I just miss it? Will be interesting to see if he lasts the next few months
There's more to it. Winterkorn, who's position was to become vacant in 2016, isn't best frieds with Ferdinant Piech, VW's still powerfull patriarch. And there's also the Porsche family and the Bundes state Niedersachsen in this play. Half a year ago, Winterkorn was able to get support of the VW board against Piech, so there's a spicy struggle going on, long before the current scandal. The good old power games for influence. Juicy stuff, suitable for a Dallas soap. Winterkorn, by the way, is (at least at this moment) also director of the board of Audi, even in Germany a lesser known fact. Porsche has 51% of Volkswagen AG shares. With all those powerfull people on positions at WV, Porche and Audi (and VAG also owns Seat, Skoda, Bugatti, Lamborghini and Scannia) a cat would no longer find her kittens between all that top brass. Bound to get some friction. Dallas' Taraa, taraa, taraa tatataaa would be an appropriate music theme Clown emoticon
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Volkswagen AG finally released a list of the affected vehicles. At this time they are claiming that approximately 5 million cars equipped with the EA 189 2.0 TDI turbo diesel engine are to be recalled worldwide over emissions, namely the sixth-generation Golf, seventh-generation Passat, and first-generation Tiguan. All Euro 6-compliant vehicles (current Golf, Passat, and new Tiguan) are not affected.

Let's also remember that all cars have "test modes" programmed into them. Since cars are now all electronically controlled, all kinds of crazy things could happen when the front wheels are spinning at 50MPH and the rear wheels aren't moving. At the same time the throttle position is not normal and intake vacuum is a wonky. Air flow is wrong, etc. Other car manufacturers (as far as we know at this time) just tell it you're on a test rig, deal with it and act normal. Obviously VW didn't do that and gamed the system.
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The real issue will be the loss of the buying publics trust.
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spudster wrote:
They already deny registration for cars that don't pass emissions tests in a number of states.
But the car does pass the emission tests as-is. I don't think the state looks at your car's lines of code yet. It may come.

Cheers,
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"Isn't it time for - a German opinion?" ;-)
So here's my 5ct. to the German auto scandal:

The testing of cars IMHO is by far not rigorous enough. Why test on a test rig, with switched-off AC, no lights, no radio, no heating, etc.? I call for a global on-road real-life testing sceme! Customers like us lot don't drive on test rigs, so what use are MPG and pollutants statements that don't reflect real driving circumstances?

So, what should we do with affected VW vehicles? - How about forcing VW to offer owners of affected cars to swap their's for a successor model that complies with newest regulations? That would teach VW a lesson and would be a compensation for deceived owners. Affected cars should be mandatorily scrapped: Eat this, shareholders! Because what is the main couse for such fraud? It's greed. Of course, greed is a problem in any company. That's also a reason, why I call for real life tests: To make it harder to swindle.
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Re: "Isn't it time for - a German opinion?" ;-)
Joachim wrote:
Affected cars should be mandatorily scrapped: Eat this, shareholders!
That's extreme - the pollution and resources that went into the manufacture of the cars, their delivery, and then their scrapping would, alone, make that disgustingly wasteful. According to some others above a computer code flash should suffice to bring it into compliance
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Bob Cowley wrote:
spudster wrote:
They already deny registration for cars that don't pass emissions tests in a number of states.
But the car does pass the emission tests as-is. I don't think the state looks at your car's lines of code yet. It may come.

Cheers,
Bob
Actually it does not conform to emissions regulations. Each vehicle sold is required to conform to emission standards for up to 8yrs/80K miles. The emission laws state that just passing the emissions test is not enough, a car could be determined to fail due to defective parts. Vehicles have been recalled for parts that are prone to fail early. Not all cars under these recalls have the failed part but are still under recall, even though they may still pass the test. They could easily flag each car by VIN number to see if this recall has already been done. There are already services online that allows you to put in your VIN number to see if all recalls have been performed.
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Re: "Isn't it time for - a German opinion?" ;-)
xantufrog wrote:
According to some others above a computer code flash should suffice to bring it into compliance
I wonder what the performance and fuel economy of the reprogrammed vehicle would be? The consumer bought these cars in good faith. VW did not sell them in good faith. Should the consumer be forced to accept lower performance and economy than advertised to correct VW's fraud? The fuel cost difference could possibly be priced out for a cash settlement, but if performance is dodgy, how do you compensate the consumer for that?

Can the environmental protection agencies really allow indefinite operation of uncorrected cars without effectively being hypocritical. This is not a matter of weighing societal costs and benefits before the fact. This is a matter of a corporation admitting that it willfully designed and marketed a product that was going to pollute at higher than allowed levels.

I think it's going to get more complicated before it is settled.
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Re: "Isn't it time for - a German opinion?" ;-)
Aviator47 wrote:
I wonder what the performance and fuel economy of the reprogrammed vehicle would be? The consumer bought these cars in good faith. VW did not sell them in good faith. Should the consumer be forced to accept lower performance and economy than advertised to correct VW's fraud?
I agree, this is a major issue - because the car will do less and cost more to own once made compliant. Nobody is going to want that - they bought it expecting a different product
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Re: "Isn't it time for - a German opinion?" ;-)
xantufrog wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
I wonder what the performance and fuel economy of the reprogrammed vehicle would be? The consumer bought these cars in good faith. VW did not sell them in good faith. Should the consumer be forced to accept lower performance and economy than advertised to correct VW's fraud?
I agree, this is a major issue - because the car will do less and cost more to own once made compliant. Nobody is going to want that - they bought it expecting a different product
My opinion is that whatever the "fix", the cars should end up performing as advertised, to the claimed pollution standards in short order, and entirely at VW's expense. Cost and inconvenience to the consumer should be as close to zero as possible. If that means replacing every car, then so be it.

And, the fines imposed should add to the correction costs to hobble the company for a long enough time to deter any other manufacturer from considering any similar fraud.
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The problem with that idea is that it's going to be impossible to modify these cars to keep the same performance and economy, and still meet emissions targets, and it's totally unrealistic to expect them to be replaced with newer vehicles at no cost to the driver. A trade in towards a newer VW might be offered, but a straight swap? Can't see it happening, and then there's the environmental impact of throwing away hundreds of thousands of serviceable newish cars.

I also find the irony of the situation quite amusing that the biggest moral outrage is coming from the country where Rolling Coal is a thing.
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I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers?
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Moment
I've worked in the car industry for about 12 years now and 7 of them with VW. I'm as surprised as everyone at the way they've approached the challenge.
They looked at the only time when the car will be tested and programmed it to pass that test, not perform as it should or even displayed as advertised.
It's so un-German to apply that way of thinking.
Germans are the best engineers in the world - especially those that work in the car industry so why did they resort to cheating when they could have resolved it ?
Time, talent and money we're never an issue with VW so why resort take the easy route while believing that they'd never get caught out ?
Every member of the sales team that I work with is as stunned as I am but there's one thing for sure they aren't the only ones finding a way of getting around the emissions test.
There's more to come I promise you.

Mouths open.

Bill xxx
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DR Zoidberg

So, you are suggesting that people who have been defrauded should just suck it up?

Bill Dog

Exquisite engineering skills does not guarantee quality and integrity. Simply means they can design whatever the company wants. If a properly compliant diesel would cost too much for a competative position in the US market, then simply have your genius engineers find a way to make a cheaper car appear to meet standards.

Sciense and engineering can be directed towards good and ethical ends or evil and unethical ends. It's simply a leadership choice. Siemens employs a huge number of excellent engineers, but still have used bribery, not product excellence, to get a large part of their business over the past century.
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Aviator47 wrote:
DR Zoidberg

So, you are suggesting that people who have been defrauded should just suck it up?
No, but then neither should they be given a brand new car to replace one that could be seven years old.

Any recompense or solution should be fair for both owners and manufacturer.
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Apart from the fraud they comitted, there's still a technical dilemma. You can lower the nitrogen dioxide emissions, but that requires a less lean fuel mixture and lower temperatures, and concequently will increase emitted greenhouse gas and decrease fuel efficiency, the thing they wanted to avoid in the first place. They solved a major invironmental issue with diesels in the past, but they created another, and that didn't pass the latest emission rules. And with "they" I meant the whole diesel industry. There are some tricks, like AdBlue, but we're simply at the end of the technical song. Let's not forget that the situation is far far far more disasterous for trucks. There's some serious thinking needed about where we want go with diesel. Personally, I'm more afraid from trucks for my kids health than from those few VW's. This, however, does not dismiss VW from their duty to either engineer clean diesels or quit producing them if they can't, instead of comitting fraud.
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Dr Zoidberg wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
DR Zoidberg

So, you are suggesting that people who have been defrauded should just suck it up?
No, but then neither should they be given a brand new car to replace one that could be seven years old.

Any recompense or solution should be fair for both owners and manufacturer.
The manufacturer deserves just, not fair treatment. The manufacturer commited the fraud, not the owner. That the fraud was committed last week or seven years ago has no bearing.
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So apparently Bosch gave VW software in 2007 to test and told them that it was illegal to use.

Also in 2011 an engineer warned VW of illegal practices.

http://m.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/a-1054926.html
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Aviator47 wrote:
Dr Zoidberg wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
DR Zoidberg

So, you are suggesting that people who have been defrauded should just suck it up?
No, but then neither should they be given a brand new car to replace one that could be seven years old.

Any recompense or solution should be fair for both owners and manufacturer.
The manufacturer deserves just, not fair treatment. The manufacturer commited the fraud, not the owner. That the fraud was committed last week or seven years ago has no bearing.
The issue of any fines for breaking the law should be entirely separate from compensation due to customers.
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I think that the swapping cars idea is an option, and that the used, reprogrammed cars could then be sold through the used car market for what they are - compliant, but lower-performing vehicles which some people may be willing to purchase for the right price. That way, VW may recoup some of the loss, although the flooding of the market with these cars may make it hard to sell them.

Another alternative could be monetary compensation for current owners - say starting from 20% of the original car purchase price, adjusted for year/mileage, or a 30% additional discount for trade-in on a new equivalent model.

Either way, there is a chance that VW may go (near-)bankrupt for this, depending on world-wide costs, and need government intervention. It will be fun to see if Germany will ask for EU support for this, and how Greece etc will vote....

Ultimately, however, someone at the top of this mess has to go to jail. I hope this is not deemed to political, but this robber-baron, short-term profit-centered corporate culture has to stop. The US frankly blew an opportunity in 2009, hopefully Germany and the EU will not miss this one.
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In my opinion Germany will make sure VW does not go bankrupt over this. It will not be worth fining VW into oblivion and then having a huge wave of unemployed workers on the street.

But I could be wrong.
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Claude wrote:
I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers?
Testing showed the NOx output was, in the majority of cases, 10 to 30 times over the emissions limit in actual use.
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Claude wrote:
I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers?
At any time, there are half a million civilians flying in aircraft that have no pollution controls. Add every boat, tractor, lawnmower, military vehicle etc. in the world to this mess. A bunch of small diesel cars will not kill the planet.

Cars are low hanging fruit for the regulators. Does anyone know where the money collected from fines to manufacturers actually goes?

Cheers,
Bob
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Considering that one of the German state governments owns a 20% share of the company, I doubt that the federal government will allow or cause the company to go totally belly up. They will find a way to appear to take the moral high ground while protecting state and corporate interests. Keep in mind that until 2000, bribery to get business was legal and tax deductable in Germany, as long as that business was outside Germany and not in competition with another German firm. Siemens and a few other German large corporations still were paying big bribes and kickbacks 7 to 10 years later.

German engineers may be world class, but many corporate execs are as corrupt as their brethern in other countries.
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Bob Cowley wrote:
Claude wrote:
I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers?
At any time, there are half a million civilians flying in aircraft that have no pollution controls. Add every boat, tractor, lawnmower, military vehicle etc. in the world to this mess. A bunch of small diesel cars will not kill the planet.

Cars are low hanging fruit for the regulators. Does anyone know where the money collected from fines to manufacturers actually goes?

Cheers,
Bob
One can argue who or what is the biggest polluter. However, none of those hydrocarbon burning machines you mention advertised themselves as "clean" to gain a market advantage. This was fraud on a massive scale.
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Some shame should fall upon the regulatory/testing agency for not identifying the problem sooner. Oh wait, I forgot it's a government agency... silly me! Wha? emoticon

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Aviator47 wrote:
Considering that one of the German state governments owns a 20% share of the company, I doubt that the federal government will allow or cause the company to go totally belly up. .
I agree. All anyone needs to do is look at the United States. General Motors, Fannie Mae, AIG, Bear Stearns, etc.

I would bet money no one will let VW go bankrupt over this, including the US. Impossible to predict now what will happen, but as they say in the banking world...

"Borrow a few $$, and you are a debtor. Borrow enough, and you are a partner".

Like it or not, VW is too big to cause failure (over this issue). JMHO.
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Location: South East Great England of Britishland
 
eeeee bip
@bill_dog avatar
BMW R1100RT The Problem Child Kymco Downtown 300 - I'm not the Uber Honda Cub - Scorched Earth Policy
Joined: UTC
Posts: 20935
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
UTC quote
Also
And VW owners will eventually forgive simply because they love the brand.

After all, people still buy Italian cars don't they ?

Bill xxx
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7192
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
Anyone know what the actual performance differences would be (fuel economy, horsepower, acceleration, top speed, etc.) between emissions-compliant diesels and the affected models?
@spudster avatar
UTC

Hooked
2007 MP3 250
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Posts: 226
Location: SW Florida USA
 
Hooked
@spudster avatar
2007 MP3 250
Joined: UTC
Posts: 226
Location: SW Florida USA
UTC quote
Bob Cowley wrote:
Claude wrote:
I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers?
At any time, there are half a million civilians flying in aircraft that have no pollution controls. Add every boat, tractor, lawnmower, military vehicle etc. in the world to this mess. A bunch of small diesel cars will not kill the planet.

Cars are low hanging fruit for the regulators. Does anyone know where the money collected from fines to manufacturers actually goes?

Cheers,
Bob
Actually all new aircraft, boat motors, lawn mowers and military vehicles have to meet emission standards. I worked on lawn & garden equipment for 10 years and the EPA standards have had a big effect on how your current equipment operates.
@dooglas avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
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Location: Oregon City, OR
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@dooglas avatar
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 13462
Location: Oregon City, OR
UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Anyone know what the actual performance differences would be (fuel economy, horsepower, acceleration, top speed, etc.) between emissions-compliant diesels and the affected models?
So far, I don't think anyone knows but Volkswagen AG - and they aren't telling.

Actually this article describes the study that begins to get at some of the answers. Shows the results of the test that demonstrated the problems US Jettas and Passats were having in meeting emission standards and how they compared to a diesel BMW X5.

http://www.citylab.com/crime/2015/09/the-study-that-brought-down-volkswagen/407149/
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