Ossessionato
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If VW offered a simple software fix that rectified the problem but also gave the inevitable poorer performance would anyone take their car in? Would they still complain?
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robinm wrote: If VW offered a simple software fix that rectified the problem but also gave the inevitable poorer performance would anyone take their car in? Would they still complain? |
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The operative phrase in the above comment is "could deny". That's a long way from " would deny".
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acejones wrote: The operative phrase in the above comment is "could deny". That's a long way from " would deny". |
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acejones wrote: The operative phrase in the above comment is "could deny". That's a long way from " would deny". |
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FlandersWasp wrote: [quote="spudster" He is still chairman of the board of directors of Porsche (owner of VW)! . |
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gregbenner wrote: I think VW owns Porsche (not the other way around). I recall 2012? |
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[quote="FlandersWasp"]
spudster wrote: News Updates German & European press: Meanwhile, VW chief Winterkorn did resign. There is however a funny detail to this. Some years ago, VW tried to take over Porsche, but in the end, Porsche took over VW. Now, Winterkorn is far from unemployed. He is still chairman of the board of directors of Porsche (owner of VW)! .. Will be interesting to see if he lasts the next few months |
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gregbenner wrote: Didn't realize that, good catch 8) Kind of surprised none of the local (US) news seem to focus on this (?) Or did I just miss it? Will be interesting to see if he lasts the next few months |
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Volkswagen AG finally released a list of the affected vehicles. At this time they are claiming that approximately 5 million cars equipped with the EA 189 2.0 TDI turbo diesel engine are to be recalled worldwide over emissions, namely the sixth-generation Golf, seventh-generation Passat, and first-generation Tiguan. All Euro 6-compliant vehicles (current Golf, Passat, and new Tiguan) are not affected.
Let's also remember that all cars have "test modes" programmed into them. Since cars are now all electronically controlled, all kinds of crazy things could happen when the front wheels are spinning at 50MPH and the rear wheels aren't moving. At the same time the throttle position is not normal and intake vacuum is a wonky. Air flow is wrong, etc. Other car manufacturers (as far as we know at this time) just tell it you're on a test rig, deal with it and act normal. Obviously VW didn't do that and gamed the system. |
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spudster wrote: They already deny registration for cars that don't pass emissions tests in a number of states. Cheers, Bob |
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"Isn't it time for - a German opinion?" ;-)
So here's my 5ct. to the German auto scandal:
The testing of cars IMHO is by far not rigorous enough. Why test on a test rig, with switched-off AC, no lights, no radio, no heating, etc.? I call for a global on-road real-life testing sceme! Customers like us lot don't drive on test rigs, so what use are MPG and pollutants statements that don't reflect real driving circumstances? So, what should we do with affected VW vehicles? - How about forcing VW to offer owners of affected cars to swap their's for a successor model that complies with newest regulations? That would teach VW a lesson and would be a compensation for deceived owners. Affected cars should be mandatorily scrapped: Eat this, shareholders! Because what is the main couse for such fraud? It's greed. Of course, greed is a problem in any company. That's also a reason, why I call for real life tests: To make it harder to swindle. |
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Re: "Isn't it time for - a German opinion?" ;-)
Joachim wrote: Affected cars should be mandatorily scrapped: Eat this, shareholders! |
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Bob Cowley wrote: spudster wrote: They already deny registration for cars that don't pass emissions tests in a number of states. Cheers, Bob |
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Re: "Isn't it time for - a German opinion?" ;-)
xantufrog wrote: According to some others above a computer code flash should suffice to bring it into compliance Can the environmental protection agencies really allow indefinite operation of uncorrected cars without effectively being hypocritical. This is not a matter of weighing societal costs and benefits before the fact. This is a matter of a corporation admitting that it willfully designed and marketed a product that was going to pollute at higher than allowed levels. I think it's going to get more complicated before it is settled. |
Moderibbit
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Re: "Isn't it time for - a German opinion?" ;-)
Aviator47 wrote: I wonder what the performance and fuel economy of the reprogrammed vehicle would be? The consumer bought these cars in good faith. VW did not sell them in good faith. Should the consumer be forced to accept lower performance and economy than advertised to correct VW's fraud? |
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Re: "Isn't it time for - a German opinion?" ;-)
xantufrog wrote: Aviator47 wrote: I wonder what the performance and fuel economy of the reprogrammed vehicle would be? The consumer bought these cars in good faith. VW did not sell them in good faith. Should the consumer be forced to accept lower performance and economy than advertised to correct VW's fraud? And, the fines imposed should add to the correction costs to hobble the company for a long enough time to deter any other manufacturer from considering any similar fraud. |
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The problem with that idea is that it's going to be impossible to modify these cars to keep the same performance and economy, and still meet emissions targets, and it's totally unrealistic to expect them to be replaced with newer vehicles at no cost to the driver. A trade in towards a newer VW might be offered, but a straight swap? Can't see it happening, and then there's the environmental impact of throwing away hundreds of thousands of serviceable newish cars.
I also find the irony of the situation quite amusing that the biggest moral outrage is coming from the country where Rolling Coal is a thing. |
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I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers?
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Moment
I've worked in the car industry for about 12 years now and 7 of them with VW. I'm as surprised as everyone at the way they've approached the challenge.
They looked at the only time when the car will be tested and programmed it to pass that test, not perform as it should or even displayed as advertised. It's so un-German to apply that way of thinking. Germans are the best engineers in the world - especially those that work in the car industry so why did they resort to cheating when they could have resolved it ? Time, talent and money we're never an issue with VW so why resort take the easy route while believing that they'd never get caught out ? Every member of the sales team that I work with is as stunned as I am but there's one thing for sure they aren't the only ones finding a way of getting around the emissions test. There's more to come I promise you. Mouths open. Bill xxx |
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DR Zoidberg
So, you are suggesting that people who have been defrauded should just suck it up? Bill Dog Exquisite engineering skills does not guarantee quality and integrity. Simply means they can design whatever the company wants. If a properly compliant diesel would cost too much for a competative position in the US market, then simply have your genius engineers find a way to make a cheaper car appear to meet standards. Sciense and engineering can be directed towards good and ethical ends or evil and unethical ends. It's simply a leadership choice. Siemens employs a huge number of excellent engineers, but still have used bribery, not product excellence, to get a large part of their business over the past century. |
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Aviator47 wrote: DR Zoidberg So, you are suggesting that people who have been defrauded should just suck it up? Any recompense or solution should be fair for both owners and manufacturer. |
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Apart from the fraud they comitted, there's still a technical dilemma. You can lower the nitrogen dioxide emissions, but that requires a less lean fuel mixture and lower temperatures, and concequently will increase emitted greenhouse gas and decrease fuel efficiency, the thing they wanted to avoid in the first place. They solved a major invironmental issue with diesels in the past, but they created another, and that didn't pass the latest emission rules. And with "they" I meant the whole diesel industry. There are some tricks, like AdBlue, but we're simply at the end of the technical song. Let's not forget that the situation is far far far more disasterous for trucks. There's some serious thinking needed about where we want go with diesel. Personally, I'm more afraid from trucks for my kids health than from those few VW's. This, however, does not dismiss VW from their duty to either engineer clean diesels or quit producing them if they can't, instead of comitting fraud.
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Dr Zoidberg wrote: Aviator47 wrote: DR Zoidberg So, you are suggesting that people who have been defrauded should just suck it up? Any recompense or solution should be fair for both owners and manufacturer. |
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So apparently Bosch gave VW software in 2007 to test and told them that it was illegal to use.
Also in 2011 an engineer warned VW of illegal practices. http://m.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/a-1054926.html |
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Aviator47 wrote: Dr Zoidberg wrote: Aviator47 wrote: DR Zoidberg So, you are suggesting that people who have been defrauded should just suck it up? Any recompense or solution should be fair for both owners and manufacturer. |
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My wife owns a 2010 Audi A3 TDI. She loved that car.
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/b296414db0/basic-girls-break-up-with-jettas?_cc=__d___&_ccid=6bzasb.nvb5x7 |
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I think that the swapping cars idea is an option, and that the used, reprogrammed cars could then be sold through the used car market for what they are - compliant, but lower-performing vehicles which some people may be willing to purchase for the right price. That way, VW may recoup some of the loss, although the flooding of the market with these cars may make it hard to sell them.
Another alternative could be monetary compensation for current owners - say starting from 20% of the original car purchase price, adjusted for year/mileage, or a 30% additional discount for trade-in on a new equivalent model. Either way, there is a chance that VW may go (near-)bankrupt for this, depending on world-wide costs, and need government intervention. It will be fun to see if Germany will ask for EU support for this, and how Greece etc will vote.... Ultimately, however, someone at the top of this mess has to go to jail. I hope this is not deemed to political, but this robber-baron, short-term profit-centered corporate culture has to stop. The US frankly blew an opportunity in 2009, hopefully Germany and the EU will not miss this one. |
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In my opinion Germany will make sure VW does not go bankrupt over this. It will not be worth fining VW into oblivion and then having a huge wave of unemployed workers on the street.
But I could be wrong. |
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Claude wrote: I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers? |
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Claude wrote: I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers? Cars are low hanging fruit for the regulators. Does anyone know where the money collected from fines to manufacturers actually goes? Cheers, Bob |
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Considering that one of the German state governments owns a 20% share of the company, I doubt that the federal government will allow or cause the company to go totally belly up. They will find a way to appear to take the moral high ground while protecting state and corporate interests. Keep in mind that until 2000, bribery to get business was legal and tax deductable in Germany, as long as that business was outside Germany and not in competition with another German firm. Siemens and a few other German large corporations still were paying big bribes and kickbacks 7 to 10 years later.
German engineers may be world class, but many corporate execs are as corrupt as their brethern in other countries. |
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Bob Cowley wrote: Claude wrote: I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers? Cars are low hanging fruit for the regulators. Does anyone know where the money collected from fines to manufacturers actually goes? Cheers, Bob |
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Some shame should fall upon the regulatory/testing agency for not identifying the problem sooner. Oh wait, I forgot it's a government agency... silly me!
Paul |
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Aviator47 wrote: Considering that one of the German state governments owns a 20% share of the company, I doubt that the federal government will allow or cause the company to go totally belly up. . I would bet money no one will let VW go bankrupt over this, including the US. Impossible to predict now what will happen, but as they say in the banking world... "Borrow a few $$, and you are a debtor. Borrow enough, and you are a partner". Like it or not, VW is too big to cause failure (over this issue). JMHO. |
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Also
And VW owners will eventually forgive simply because they love the brand.
After all, people still buy Italian cars don't they ? Bill xxx |
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Anyone know what the actual performance differences would be (fuel economy, horsepower, acceleration, top speed, etc.) between emissions-compliant diesels and the affected models?
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Bob Cowley wrote: Claude wrote: I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers? Cars are low hanging fruit for the regulators. Does anyone know where the money collected from fines to manufacturers actually goes? Cheers, Bob |
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SoCalGuy wrote: Anyone know what the actual performance differences would be (fuel economy, horsepower, acceleration, top speed, etc.) between emissions-compliant diesels and the affected models? Actually this article describes the study that begins to get at some of the answers. Shows the results of the test that demonstrated the problems US Jettas and Passats were having in meeting emission standards and how they compared to a diesel BMW X5. http://www.citylab.com/crime/2015/09/the-study-that-brought-down-volkswagen/407149/ |
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