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The 6 HP Tohatsu outboard I installed on my sailboat last year gets a California Air Resource Board (CARB) rating of 3, or "Ultra Low Emissions". It burns between 1 pint to less than a quart per hour around 5 knots, depending on conditions. This is a huge improvement from the previous 1995 engine of the same output.

I would guess that very few boats would show numbers like this, however.
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[quote="Aviator47"][quote="Dr Zoidberg"]
Aviator47 wrote:
DR Zoidber

The manufacturer deserves just, not fair treatment. The manufacturer commited the fraud, not the owner. That the fraud was committed last week or seven years ago has no bearing.
I agree, BUT, exactly who is the manufacturer. Sure, it's VW, but is it the 500,000 VW employees? or the other 500,00 to million + who tangentially get their income from VW related? or is the the shareholders?

I certainly don't know the answer, but I think the question is valid, and creates huge political issues. I sort of think maybe crucify those in the know, then devise a practical (imperfect) solution.
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spudster wrote:
Actually all new aircraft, boat motors, lawn mowers and military vehicles have to meet emission standards. I worked on lawn & garden equipment for 10 years and the EPA standards have had a big effect on how your current equipment operates.
I guess I should clarify this. "Tactical" military vehicles only have to meet the 1999 EPA standards. The reason for this is that ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel can not be counted on being available in overseas locations and/or during combat. ULSD is required to be able to use the particulate filters that are fitted to civilian trucks to meet the stricter standards.
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This whole situation would never have occurred if proper testing procedures were used under real conditions.

The cars would not have passed the first tests and therefor never been allowed.
Software or no software.
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paulm wrote:
This whole situation would never have occurred if proper testing procedures were used under real conditions.

The cars would not have passed the first tests and therefor never been allowed.
Software or no software.
The whole situation would also never have occurred if the manufacturer was ethical. I know, it seems a stretch nowadays. Besides, for any given test, and I do mean any test, someone will figure out a cheat to beat it.
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Re: "Isn't it time for - a German opinion?" ;-)
Aviator47 wrote:
xantufrog wrote:
According to some others above a computer code flash should suffice to bring it into compliance
I wonder what the performance and fuel economy of the reprogrammed vehicle would be? The consumer bought these cars in good faith. VW did not sell them in good faith. Should the consumer be forced to accept lower performance and economy than advertised to correct VW's fraud? The fuel cost difference could possibly be priced out for a cash settlement, but if performance is dodgy, how do you compensate the consumer for that?

Can the environmental protection agencies really allow indefinite operation of uncorrected cars without effectively being hypocritical. This is not a matter of weighing societal costs and benefits before the fact. This is a matter of a corporation admitting that it willfully designed and marketed a product that was going to pollute at higher than allowed levels.

I think it's going to get more complicated before it is settled.
Al, you are exactly right. I purchased a 2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI, which uses the AdBlue system. That engine is on the list as well. I suspect it will be simpler to "fix" through a software flash that probably will use AdBlue at a higher rate. Right now, the tank is designed to be refilled ever 10K when the car is serviced for an oil change. My guess is if the system was working properly, the interval will be 3-5K on AdBlue fill ups.

The larger question is compensation. I was defrauded. I paid a premium for a "clean" diesel. That value is now gone through no fault of my own. Similarly, if the software reprogram affects performance (I mean acceleration and torque), I don't have the car i "purchased." At the very least, I should be compensated for loss of value caused by the fraud, and, if the car's performance is degraded, VW should buy the car back from me for what I paid for it. They have no defense here, because they engaged in fraud, pure and simple. In a civil action, they would owe compensatory damages and probably get hit with punitive damages because of their knowing and long running bad behavior.
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UTC quote
[quote="gregbenner"][quote="Aviator47"]
Dr Zoidberg wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
DR Zoidber

The manufacturer deserves just, not fair treatment. The manufacturer commited the fraud, not the owner. That the fraud was committed last week or seven years ago has no bearing.
I agree, BUT, exactly who is the manufacturer. Sure, it's VW, but is it the 500,000 VW employees? or the other 500,00 to million + who tangentially get their income from VW related? or is the the shareholders?

I certainly don't know the answer, but I think the question is valid, and creates huge political issues. I sort of think maybe crucify those in the know, then devise a practical (imperfect) solution.
All of your questions are answered by a firm yes. There has to be a line.

I'm real sorry your stock tanked(not you, specifically), but the company was breaking the law. Go down with the ship and stop bitching.
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spudster wrote:
Claude wrote:
I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers?
Testing showed the NOx output was, in the majority of cases, 10 to 30 times over the emissions limit in actual use.
That's nothing to scuff at now is it? Maybe the "clean" diesel is a myth? I suspect the EPA or equivalent in each country is going to take a hard close look at diesels. If not, how could a company like VW not design a clean diesel when Mercedes and others could?
Anyone remember a General Motors commercial where two white lab coat wearing engineers put a white cloth over the tailpipe of a GM diesel car to show how clean the emissions are? If VW can't build a clean diesel, could GM?
⚠️ Last edited by Claude on UTC; edited 1 time
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UTC quote
Claude wrote:
spudster wrote:
Claude wrote:
I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers?
Testing showed the NOx output was, in the majority of cases, 10 to 30 times over the emissions limit in actual use.
That's nothing to scuff at now is it? Maybe the "clean" diesel is a myth? I suspect the EPA or equivalent in each country is going to take a hard close look at diesels. If not, how could a company like VW couldn't design a clean diesel when Mercedes and others could?
Anyone remember a General Motors commercial where two white lab coat wearing engineers put a white cloth over the tailpipe of a GM diesel car to show how clean the emissions are? If VW can't build a clean diesel, could GM?
Personally I don't think it is a matter of "could they". Rather, it is a question of how much could they promise in comparison to their competition. They cheated. Time will tell if the others did too.
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[quote="Trotter"]
gregbenner wrote:
Im real sorry your stock tanked(not you, specifically), but the company was breaking the law. Go down with the ship and stop bitching.
Funny. I have 10 shares ($250), I can accept the loss. Razz emoticon Razz emoticon Razz emoticon

So you see no need to worry about the million employees, and million shareholders? Must be nice.

Bless you AH Razz emoticon
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gregbenner wrote:
devise a practical (imperfect) solution.
Perhaps something along the lines of - no previous purchaser of these vehicles should be out of pocket when it comes to selling them on.

Just getting this put in place would cost a tidy bit, and at (huge guesstimate) ~USD 2,000 per piece on average would be a very salutary lesson.

The vehicles themselves are a very small (miniscule) part of global pollution, even in the EU, so this might be enough to keep the company going if the vehicles are allowed to stay on the road and customers mollified. It'd be a very expensive sword to dangle over the heads of any other company even considering doing anything similar. With ~11x10^6 vehicles, that'd be about USD 22 billion. They'd just survive.
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[quote="gregbenner"]
Trotter wrote:
gregbenner wrote:
Im real sorry your stock tanked(not you, specifically), but the company was breaking the law. Go down with the ship and stop bitching.
Funny. I have 10 shares ($250), I can accept the loss. Razz emoticon Razz emoticon Razz emoticon

So you see no need to worry about the million employees, and million shareholders? Must be nice.

Bless you AH Razz emoticon
Take those shares, sell them, and give me the money.

I promise it will go to a good cause.
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Dr Zoidberg wrote:
The problem with that idea is that it's going to be impossible to modify these cars to keep the same performance and economy, and still meet emissions targets, and it's totally unrealistic to expect them to be replaced with newer vehicles at no cost to the driver. A trade in towards a newer VW might be offered, but a straight swap? Can't see it happening, and then there's the environmental impact of throwing away hundreds of thousands of serviceable newish cars.

I also find the irony of the situation quite amusing that the biggest moral outrage is coming from the country where Rolling Coal is a thing.
This really has nothing to do with moral outrage. It has to do with fact that VW promised to deliver a car that met certain specifications and then lied about it. It's just that simple.
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UTC quote
Claude wrote:
If VW can't build a clean diesel, could GM?
Not cheaply, at least for small displacements.

A diesel engine is very efficient, cheap to run, but its effluent is toxic. Scrubbing that is the tricky bit, especially on a mobile unit.
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UTC quote
Claude wrote:
spudster wrote:
Claude wrote:
I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers?
Testing showed the NOx output was, in the majority of cases, 10 to 30 times over the emissions limit in actual use.
That's nothing to scuff at now is it? Maybe the "clean" diesel is a myth? I suspect the EPA or equivalent in each country is going to take a hard close look at diesels. If not, how could a company like VW couldn't design a clean diesel when Mercedes and others could?
Anyone remember a General Motors commercial where two white lab coat wearing engineers put a white cloth over the tailpipe of a GM diesel car to show how clean the emissions are? If VW can't build a clean diesel, could GM?
Pretty easy. Mercedes and BMW are using the AdBlue injection system. VW did not want to use this system on these engines because they are expensive and complex. The AdBlue system ads about $5K to the price of the vehicle. What's interesting is that some VWs that do use the AdBlue system still don't meet the standards.... and some do.

Edited: I was wrong, GM starting using DPF in 2007 that used a regen system to clean the particulate filter. (I owned one of them) The AdBlue system wasn't added until 2011.
⚠️ Last edited by spudster on UTC; edited 2 times
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But was the VW CEO really such a bad guy?
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UTC quote
spudster wrote:
Claude wrote:
spudster wrote:
Claude wrote:
I've been following the VW drama but can anyone tell me how much the emissions numbers where over/understated? Was it this enormous amount? Can people who have bought a Diesel golf say " Ok, that's not a big deal" or will they qualify as planet killers?
Testing showed the NOx output was, in the majority of cases, 10 to 30 times over the emissions limit in actual use.
That's nothing to scuff at now is it? Maybe the "clean" diesel is a myth? I suspect the EPA or equivalent in each country is going to take a hard close look at diesels. If not, how could a company like VW couldn't design a clean diesel when Mercedes and others could?
Anyone remember a General Motors commercial where two white lab coat wearing engineers put a white cloth over the tailpipe of a GM diesel car to show how clean the emissions are? If VW can't build a clean diesel, could GM?
Pretty easy. Mercedes and BMW are using the AdBlue injection system. VW did not want to use this system on these engines because they are expensive and complex. The AdBlue system ads about $5K to the price of the vehicle. What's interesting is that some VWs that do use the AdBlue system still don't meet the standards.... and some do. Diesel light trucks have used the AdBlue system since 2007.
That makes sense. People who are willing to pay for these brands can afford an extra $5k and some will be company cars.
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UTC quote
spudster wrote:
Pretty easy. Mercedes and BMW are using the AdBlue injection system. VW did not want to use this system on these engines because they are expensive and complex.
That is incorrect. Some of the VWs under scrutiny do use AdBlue.
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Midnight Rider wrote:
spudster wrote:
Pretty easy. Mercedes and BMW are using the AdBlue injection system. VW did not want to use this system on these engines because they are expensive and complex.
That is incorrect. Some of the VWs under scrutiny do use AdBlue.
If you read what I wrtoe I said:

"What's interesting is that some VWs that do use the AdBlue system still don't meet the standards.... and some do."
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