Modern Vespa

Hi Guys!

So i just bought my first Vespa some time ago.

A 1983 P200E its done about 25000 km.

But in very good condition and running really well!

However i would like to, have it a bit more easy/comfy to ride. Lets just say i wanna make it a little more modern.

I have some ideas of what to do, but im not 100% sure, and would love to hear your advice.

I'm not going for a faster bike - just a "better" one.

My thoughts so far is:
1. Change the clutch, to make gear shifts more effortless - which one would you recommend?
2. Install a front full hydraulic front disk brake
3. Install a new exhaust, since the old is rusty

And thats pretty much it.

What do you guys think?

- Micki

Im thinking of going with a BGM clutch - http://www.scooter-center.com/en/product/BGM8096/Clutch+BGM+Superstrong+made+in+Germany+CNC+machined+10+springs+Cosa2+type+Vespa+Cosa2+PX+from+1995+20+teeth+for+6768+teeth?meta=?cat=C_V_VSX1T&catmatch=CAT_ANTRIEB_KUPPLUNG

And this disc brake kit - http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/steering+column+lml+for+vespa+_62812000

For the exhaust my first thought was a Sito+

Better shocks are a must.SIP Road exhaust. Disc brake is a good idea but don't know if new clutch is worth the effort on a stock motor.

The P200 will be an excellent daily driver.

Exhaust - Skip the Sito - there are better stock/clubman exhausts out there. SIP or BGM. If you want to spend more then Pipedesign S-Box or Megadella.
You will need to upjet carb - easy.

Clutch - BGM wont do anything for you really. If you want smoother clutch operation. Start off with a new teflon lined cable and housing. I lubricate mine with Tri-FLo (not sure if you can get there) but I always get a butter smooth clutch like this.

Disc Brake - The comlete LML for is fine, but its made for PX style column lock/ignition switch. WHich if you have a 83 PX it should be correct. You will need to mount master cylinder on handlebar. You will need to modifly lower part of headset by cutting off some material, using a bracket from SIP and getting a PX Grimeca/Heng Tong Master Cylinder/Lever.

Shocks - a must to get a good set of uprated performance shocks and tires. This will transform the ride.

This would give you a good setup with planty of traffic power and a nice top end of 70mph all day.

You have basically described my vespa.

Stock 1980 P200e, upgraded to front disc brake and a performance shock, BGM Pro clutch and running an SIP Road 2.0 exhaust.

These things all made the scooter better, but it's a lot of money you are talking about for modest performance gains. I recommend it, but just be aware of that!

Anyway, it's wise, IMO. Ruins some of the "authentic" old school flavor of the scoot, but mine is a daily commuter and I wouldn't give up any of these upgrades

I disagree, the BGM has a heavily modified Cosa 2 design that is easier pull than the original P200 clutch. It also has far finer tolerances that make it all around much less sloppy / much smoother to use. I went from stock to Cosa 2 to BGM Pro and the BGM Pro is slightly harder pulling than the Cosa 2 but much better than stock.

I also disagree that going with an SIP Road is going to make it a 70mph scooter... not even close. It makes a 50mph cruise, 60mph top scooter into a 55mph cruise, 65mph top scooter. But I agree he should skip the Sito for something better like the Road or BGM

Sito out - road in!

With The fork i would buy a new lower headset, so i dont have to modify

Can you recommend any shocks?

Still thinking about getting The clutch if The budget can take it..

With the disc brake, you can find them salvage on eBay, often with the fork, hub, lower headset, front fender, and master cylinder.

With older PX models, I think the column lock would require modification, though.

You may still need some modifications. There is a super slim hydraulic line you can run through the fork like a drum cable, but if you want to run the normal LML Star / PX way you will need to dremel the opening into the frame wider so the hose fits and doesn't obstruct handlebar rotation. You will also want to modify your fender or mount a PX-type one in that case. I recommend the slimline "sleeper" hose option if you can find the parts and such, but I went with the traditional route.

http://xantufrog-vespas.blogspot.com/2011/06/disc-brake-conversion.html

I like something like this fine:
http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Front-Shocks/174446IP_2
I had a Bitubo at one point and didn't like it, at least not for the price and my lower performance application. Was too rigid.

**I recommend saving the one-piece cast top of your stock shock top and using that on the new shock. Saves a bunch of headaches. So much better than the two pressed together pieces + nut that a lot of the "budget" perf shocks use. Allows more flexibility in how you "hold" the shock to tighten the top nut among other things

Oddly, when I had a 20mm LML fork it still worked. But my Piaggio one I have now does not. Go figure. Oh, but the LML had funky issues with the ring nut atop. PITA the whole thing has been.

Regardless of which clutch you use, pay close attention to the cable prep & routing. I like the idea of the teflon lined cable and find that the routing and length of the cable outer can make a big difference.

Starting in the headset, I've started running the clutch cable down the FAR side of the column, over by the throttle cable. I haven't seen this on any I've taken out & don't know if anybody else does this, but it gives you a larger bend radius and that helps makes pulling in the clutch easier.

Once you have your new clutch cable run through the frame nice and straight as you can, see if the outer extends much beyond its seat in the adjuster - some do. If so, pull the inner back a ways(so you don't cut it too) and cut the outer to the appropriate length. Now there will be no S curves inside the frame adding friction to the system.

Wire cutters, ect. won't do as they'll mess up the end. I use a cutoff wheel in an angle grinder but you can also use a Dremel cutoff wheel or a proper cable cutter tool if you have one. Now heat the end with the cap that you cut off w/ a cig lighter to soften the plastic jacket so you can pull that end cap off to reuse. Deburr your new outer cable end and push & twist something like an awl into the hole so there are no burrs lingering there, then drive a taper into the open end of your salvaged end cap to enlarge it enough to push back on the cable outer.

Ok,I know that's a lot of fussing around, but ppl are usually surprised by how easy the clutch is to use on my bikes. Another thing that I like a lot and probably helps here as well is adjustable dogleg levers.

Maybe I should have phrased that differently. To keep cost down - the BGM isnt necessary for smooth oreration. It is a far better clutch. I have one sitting on my bench going in a later build.
70mph? Ive never owned a good running stock P that wont touch 70 mph. And sit there all day if you wanted. If youre only getting 65 - somehting in your setup not right. Adding a big box type of exhaust will help.

Oh yeah, the bgm is definitely overkill for a stock bike in many respects. You do 70gps or indicated? I've never known one to go that fast, although I've only personally owned two (motors) so I can't speak with great authority. Just my 2 and word of mouth

against car speedos back in day and my current P2 72mph GPS - and im not exactly light. Its stock minus Boomstick chamber and lightened flywheel.
Ive been riding P200s for nearly 30 years and have never had one that wouldnt go passed 65mph unless it was a pile. Even then. The first P200 I ever bought was not the nicest looking. It was probably the fastest stock motor.
But - I dont leave things stock for long. Malossi 210 on its way for current P.

Lot more experience than me. I've never gpsed 70 with either motor, but every scoot's different. Mine might just be sluggy. At any rate, I agree it's a great upgrade

I agree with Xantufrog's recommendation on shocks. I have had my 1979 P200E for a year and 1000 miles on these shocks and they are the best addition that I have made on this scooter. I can also recommend the tubeless aluminum wheels and Michelin tires from Scootermercato.

FYI you can buy a used 400cc+ motorcycle in the $1000 range, this will already have a bigger engine and disc brakes, and will likely need less maintenance and will have better gas mileage. Plenty of motorcycles are running strong even with tens of thousands of miles, no need for maintenance like on a 2 stroke.

Just saying, you might want to have the P200 be a backup, I wouldn't make it a daily driver, even rebuilt. It's like my moped - an occasional driver. I think they are nice backups & for riding around town, I definitely wouldn't rely on it. Another option, you could put a downpayment on something like a Suzuki Burgman, dual disc brakes and ABS w/ storage, many advantages over a vintage scoot, this is a much more reliable vehicle.

A disc brake/kit, etc. sounds like a good idea, but when you think about what you're getting for the money, it's not really worth it. But sure, if you have money burning a hole in your pocket, go spend a ton of cash on SIP parts that give marginal gains. I wouldn't buy parts unless your stuff is worn out/broken.

I say keep the P200 stock, just fix things that are broken. Change oil and spark plugs often. Don't rely on it, and be careful w/ the crap brakes in wet weather.

Your money will be better spent on getting it running to top notch stock condition, and enjoying it for what it is.

You're still here?
Why do you keep trying to talk people on a vintage scooter forum into buying motorcycles?

I dont think the guy mentioned anything about it being his only vehicle and a daily commuter.
Ive been riding these things for 30 years and know that the P200 is absolutely reliable as a daily driver. Especially in stock to mildly upgraded form. Even fully tuned scoots are reliable and solid. As long as you do weekly preventative maintenance, inspection and adjustments you will be fine.

Disc brake makes a significant improvement over the stock drum setup. And for your money is a great deal. Have you ever owned or ridden a disc brake equipped Vespa? I didnt think so.

Just because you are sour about your brainless cotter pin incident doesnt mean you need to rain on this guys parade and point him to something he doesnt want or excited about. Go away dude

Because he is a sour broke dick with issues

The Carbone are a good value and a big step up from the stock wet noodles. Yes - there are even better shocks. But these will give you what you need at a comfortable price.

First off, I'm not saying give it up, I'm saying make a car/bus/motorcycle your main driver, and have the P200 as a backup.

I just don't want someone to go down the same road I did, right after I bought the Vespas, and even before I fixed the P up, I was already regretting the decision, and wish I'd instead bought something like a Suzuki GS550 as a main rider, they're about the same cost or less (you can get one in perfect running condition for under $1000), but with lots of advantages in terms of reliability and performance.

A Vespa scooter is all about the lifestyle, don't kid yourself into thinking this has the reliability or cost effectiveness of a japanese car/bike.

The P200 is way more fun to ride than the motorcycle or car, but I'd never consider it a daily driver. It's good as a backup, or for nice weather.

In general Vespas are overpriced because it's all about the lifestyle, not the practicality of it. I was too stupid to realize this before I bought them. In terms of practicality, you'll want a Honda CB or a new scoot/motorcycle, not a vintage scoot.

I like new scooters, the Burgman 400 looks like, but at $8000 I'd rather but that towards a nicer motorcycle.

Look, if you want to convince yourself that it's a great daily rider, go ahead. For that matter, you can make a 50cc moped a daily rider and add a disc brake to that too. Does it make sense for more than a very small select group of people? Nope.

Sounds like a personal issue. I dont need to convince myself. Ive been riding these nearly 30 years. I have HUNDREDs of friends that have too. If you couldnt handle a Vespa, a Lambretta would be murderous. Go away!

Oh my god. I don't have much money. I don't have many tools. I don't have professional mechanic training. And you know what, my P200e has been my daily rider for YEARS now. Literal "daily rider". It has been CHEAP. It has been RELIABLE. How can someone with no miles under their belt on a P200 spend so much time telling everyone on the web about how flawed they are?

Sell it, buy your Suzuki, and move on to greener pastures and leave us alone. Or learn to love what you have and hang around.

Jesus, it's like you bought an ASUS, spilled coffee on it, showed up on a PC Gamer forum, and are telling all the PC folks to go buy a Mac. It doesn't make sense

Oh boy, denial....

Pros of a Vespa (like all 2 strokes): simple to work on, cheap to rebuild, and one of the most fun bikes to ride. If you like to tool and keep up on it, it can be awesome

Cons: probably one of the least reliable vehicles out there, and will need more attention than just about any vehicle besides maybe a vintage moped

To deny this is insane, my Honda goes 15,000 miles between needing maintenance of any kind, whereas the P200 will need a TON of work in that time, from tires/cables/spark plugs/carb clean, etc. Motorcycles can easily go 50,000 miles without needing any engine work, you'll have rebuilt the P long long before that.

You don't have to have 30 years of riding Vespas to point out the pros/cons, it's widely known

You. Don't. Know. How many miles have you put on a P200e? From where I am sitting, you are just saying things for the sake of saying them.

The user who made it 10 feet down the road wants to talk about "years of experience". I never made any claim about 30 years experience... but I sure HAVE been riding, in rain sun and snow for literally years. What's your story beef? You ever go 300 miles in a day over f%$^ing mountains and dirt roads on your P200? You ride in 10 degrees with 6 bags of groceries hanging off the P200? My P is a f$%^ing tractor, and it carries my ass where it needs to go, in ways it probably wasn't designed to do. It's a good damn bike.

You don't want to listen to me because my cred isn't enough? Fine. We can't all be 50 and grew up on these things when they were new. Instead, listen to Almogavar who HAS been riding for 30 years. Or Rob, or any of the other vet riders on here you ignore and insist on contradicting based on ____?___

I've just about lost all patience with your attitude, and unfortunately for you this is a private forum.

Get on your Honda. Go find a Burgman forum and Go Away !

Agreed Xantufrog is a P warrior and can profess on reliability as daily transpo. Like I said - I have tons of friends that have ridden vintage scooters as daily transpo or their only source. My friend rode his Lambretta Jet200 everyday daily for 3 years straight with only oil changes, plugs and adjustments. Then finally it needed a new CDi as it was backfiring. Easy $35 fix. Still rides daily. Back in 90s I rode my very tuned and kitted P to work every day for 5 years without a hickup. In addition to rallie where the ride to get there was 110 miles RT and then all of the riding over the weekend. NEVER an issue. Yes - they can be unreliable especially if they are not properly maintained which cause major issues. Vintage scooters are not for people who think they can put a key in and ride into the ground without maintenance. They require commitment and dedication for sure. Even modern twist and go's need their fair amount of maintenance and usually not DIY and very costly services.

why dont you challenge these guys on reliability? Why dont they just go get KTM's and be done?
http://www.vesparaidmaroc.es/videos/

If you dont like Vespas or vintage scooter and think they are trash. Go elsewhere like a Burgman forum. You couldnt or cant deal so... GO AWAY !

If you owned a P2 for a while you would know, the maintenance on a P2 vs a Bergman, is miles apart.
P2: motor oil (trans), spark plug plug. Poss clutch cable
Burgman: Small service, Oil & filter. every 3k Large service, belt, rollers, guides, valve adjustment, oil, plug & air filter. every 5/7k
And if you get a flat on the P2, you have a spare, not on the Burgman or motorcycle.

In the UK, the P series are used as daily riders, in the wind, rain, snow & road taxes. They are the best 2t series Vespa ever made, hence the P series revival and LML spitting out crappy Indian copies.
I commuted on my PX for a year and half before switching back to a car.

Ive never owned anything other than a Vespa since 85. I dont need you to tell me about P2 series and life styles.

The hipster honda pages will love you.

Please tell me someone is still making that patch.

Goes with my Pist N Broke 'L'ambretta and "Power and Reliability" P200 patches.

I woke up this morning, and while waiting for the coffee to brew, read maintenance advice from someone who thinks cotter pins are optional.

Now do I take his advice to heart or just drink my coffee?

Oh, the burden of 8 AM decisions when retired on a Greek Isle.

Going to the veranda and contemplate the sea with a cup of joe.

Well that escalated quickly...

It's all a matter of taste really. Let's be honest: if we wanted ultra reliability, protection from the weather, ease of maintenance and safety, none of us would be on two wheels. We'd all be in Corollas or something.

I once did a round Europe trip on a Triumph Trident. Unreliable, chain-chewing, oils-consuming monster. I absolutely loved it. I also bought a Triumph Thunderbird Sport brand new. Super reliable, high quality finish and looks to die for. Hated it.

Now, at 53 years of age, I commute on a noisy, smelly, gutless PX. My kids say I look ridiculous on it. I love it.

I guess I'm saying there's no logic to Vespa ownership but anyone who says you can't commute on a PX (a) hasn't done it and (b) hasn't noticed that millions of people have done it for years.

Do it! They are fantastic.

And I wish I was drinking coffee whilst staring out to sea from a Greek island. But I'm not. Bugger.

You hit it on the head. We choose the adventure to accompany our travel. And there is a serious character flaw in my case, because for rain/cage travel I have old Alfas.

I just want to add that I learn new things on here all the time. I'm so grateful to this place and for everyone being willing to inform/debate with/suggest stuff to me. If I showed up every day insisting I knew more than all the folks who had been riding and wrenching for 30 years, and that Vespas are worthless piles, I wouldn't have gotten anything out of this site. Why you would show up, demand information, and then spit in the face of everyone who tries to help you is beyond me. No community is going to put up with that

@beef: Do you have lots of downtime at work & unrestricted internet access? Bad combination in your case methinks...

Hope you sold your Vespas(if so, please remove 'P200' from your profile), are getting over your crash, hit the lottery for your medical bills and are able to move on soon. You DID get us thinking a bit more about safe practices & what not to do, so thanks for that.

OP must be scratching his head wondering "what did I say???"

Your list is pretty good, the P doesn't need much to be a good daily. I'd add a rack is a good thing to have if you're riding often.

General rack thread,show us yours & hauling stuff howto

Hopefully wheresthebeef gets the message and splits over to the burg man forum

One vote for the BBQ rack. Amazing capacity which also facilitates the occasional wheelie.