Modern Vespa

Hello all,
I have a 74 rally 200 I need to do a ground up restoration. I might start this winter so i'm doing my research now. When I bought the bike the cylinder and head were off. Upon inspection the piston was cracked. I bought a new piston, rings, and jug thinking ill just put it together and try to get it running. I haven't done anything with it yet. After thinking about it I thought id be best off splitting it all and going through the whole motor and transmission. I was talking to an experienced vespa guy the other day and he asked why don't I just keep the original motor aside in my garage and replace it with a newer p200 motor. He said the new ones are reliable and easier and cheaper to get parts.
I just want a (half decent) reliable bike to ride around with that can do highway speeds for 20 min before getting into major city. I don't want to butcher the bike but I'm not dead set on keeping it all original, numbers matching.
Any advice if anyone has done this and/or pros and cons would be appreciated
thanks in advance

You can always put the Rally motor back in if you went with a P. I have a later Rally200 and the motor is very similar to the P200.
Both can be reliable.
I don't think "numbers matching" applies to Vespas.
I'll let other people chime in about the highway speeds question.

But, I would just rebuild the Rally motor and use that. It would cost less, and you'd learn a lot in the process about how they work so you won't have to pay people to work on your scoot.

Or you could probably sell the Rally 200 and get yourself a really nice P200.

Do you have the money for a spare motor? What specific problems did your friend say a Rally motor has compared to a P motor? What's the highway speed you want to go? A good stock motor tops out around 60-65 mph.

As far as swapping motors, they swap out nicely but you may have to play with the harness to get the wiring to match.

I'm not opposed to having a spare motor. I have to put in a brand new wiring harness regardless of my decision of motor. 60-65 is fine with me. His argument was a better electronic ignition with a p motor and better availability and prices with the p motor. Is there any difference in reliability etc. I'm guessing if done right either one would be fine? I'm thinking to redo my rally motor would cost me around 2k to do it properly? And to get a p200 motor and tranny would be around 800? Any pros or cons? Are my numbers accurate?

If done right there shouldn't be a difference in reliability. You definitely can find more parts easier for a P motor, but there are still plenty of places to buy Rally parts too.

As far as buying a motor and tranny it's all in one unit, not two separate pieces.

I think for $600 in parts you could overhaul the entire motor. You can also upgrade from the Femsa ignition to the later Ducati ignition if you want.

Thanks for the reply. That doesn't sound bad since I already have a new piston, jug and rings. So really as Long as my crank looks good just replace the bearings and I should be good. So it should be better to stick with the original plan and rebuild the rally motor?

There are plenty on here that think the rally engine as the better engine overall.I dont own one, id like to but theres not many here.

I dont think your numbers sound right. they sound like your guessing and theres no detail.

It does depend on what kind of work youll be doing yourself or out-sourcing to a shop.

i tend to direct people toward the SIP website to use their notepads to price up all their parts for a build. (Not saying you have to purchase from there)

That way youve done what you said youd do...your own research.

There you can price up for all sorts of wild combinations that may not even be correct but at least you have an angle to ask questions from.

The reason im even bothering answering here is that it sounds like you will be pulling your scooter completely down and and your looking for a quick cheap way to get it back together. Id say the old saying of you can have 2 out of 3 is appropriate here

quick
cheap
fast
your choice of what you want but you can only have 2.

look at the whole picture from the end result back (including the body and whatever you want to be doing with that) and price up your options properly from the sip site. (Include any special tools) Youll have most of your basic questions answered before you start.

Best of luck

Thanks for info
I'm not trying to do this on the cheap at all. I just want the best value for the dollar. I still haven't really heard of any arguments for or against. I realize I won't know where I'm at in terms of parts needed and price until I actually crack it and evaluate what I have on my hands. I was just wondering if putting in a p motor was ludicrous or the cats meow. This rally is going to be mint when I'm done. Once I get going on it I will be posting pics regularly.

Unless your casings are trashed or something you should probably just rebuild the Rally motor. Seems wasteful otherwise. It is unlikely that a rebuild would be as expensive as a replacement p2 motor, and it is unlikely that you would find the p2 motor more reliable given how similar they are. Also, if you are doing a loving ground up resto it seems weird to go with a non-original motor.

Thank you. Much appreciated info

good to hear your not just trying to do it on the cheap. great news for you.

I think xantu is correct in saying about your case condition being a large factor in your decision of engine you end up with. But hey, youve got a rally atm, so you can still investigate the sip notepads for planning beforehand to collate a wishlist approach, even though you might not have the cases apart. i do a worst and best case scenario based on what i want, then whittle away at costings or a more realsitic approach, this works for me, it may work for you too. The website also helps give you an idea of weight for postage which is very useful for me (even if postage from your own country is different the weight is very similar)

When youve actually got the cases apart all the research for the concise worst to best case layout is done and you can then ask the difficult questions about electrics or piston types or whatever. and you can delete and add parts to your list once youve seen inside your worm can or got good answers from the members here.

Sorry, i cant definitively give any information on whether the px engine is a better choice than your rally, but what i do know is you cant get a new rally 200 engine, nor can you get a new px200 engine either. it might be a case of the devil you know, once you see the condition of the rotary pad. id guess there wont be much costing difference to restore either one. except their are a lot of cheap LML px type 200 parts coming from india. your choice whether you want to risk buying those. Ive bought them in the past, (wouldnt buy their bearings or crank though) theyre ok i suppose but time will tell as to whether it makes for a good engine
As i have said there have been musings from members who do or have owned both saying the rally being the overall better engine.

Are you going to rebuild it yourself or send it out? Also, as mentioned, there isn't a lot of difference between the Rally 200 and P200 engine. You could switch over to the Ducati electronic ignition during the rebuild. If you are going to send it out, look up Rob Hodge on this forum. He does rebuilds, sells parts and can also offer some advice. Good luck

Thanks for the reply. I like the plan of using the sip website. Ill be going on it today. I plan on doing the motor myself. When I bought the bike I just wanted an older vespa at a decent price. I was just about to buy one three provinces away. All of a sudden this one came up locally. Upon buying it and learning of what I had I realized i lucked out on getting a rally. Thanks for the help

The Rally motor has a better fly side bearing, thus making a built motor much more reliable. I bought a set of Rally cases for a build that Al Harpham did for me several years ago, and it turned out to be a very reliable, strong running motor. Also, when looking for a Rally, anyone looking to spend coin on a nice bike will generally shy from one not having the original motor. The motor is one of the key components of the Rally equation, and buying one with a P motor screams bodge. Of course this is my $$.02. As long as your cases aren't cracked, there shouldn't be an issue putting them back right. I know of a Rally that's been for sale for sometime that's fairly cheap and has a built P motor. It's been advertised numerous times without any serious genuine interest. The paint is decent, the body solid, but it falls into the cheap P200 category due to the engine. Not sure the owner has aligned themselves to sell it for its real worth.

What does this mean? I don't know of the P200e flywheel bearing being a notable failure point. Are there data on this? This feels a bit over dramatic. I agree (as I noted myself above) about the value taking a hit with it being non-original, but "bodge"? Really? "Cheap"? The P2 engine is very desirable, costly to buy, and powerful - it's just not original Rally fare. If someone buys a Rally they want a Rally.

Hi. I have three 74's myself. If this bike is going to be "mint" when you are done, the Rally engine is the only choice. I have redone two bikes already so if I can help, don't hesitate to ask.

Buy the best only cry once.

I'd keep the Rally motor but having just rebuilt my Rally motor as well first thing I'd do if I were you is ditch the Femsatronic ignition and go with a Ducati style CDI. It's what I did but if I were to do it again I would have replaced the crank with a P crank, stator and flywheel. The reason being the P flywheel is one piece while a Rally Femsa flywheel is bolted together and two pieces I believe. With a one piece unit there is less to fail.

You can do what I did and reuse the femsa Rally crank, flywheel, and stator plate and just do a Ducati CDI conversion. I had to because my Femsa unit was toast and the reproduction units out there for Femsa don't have a good reputation. I bought one and it didn't work out of the box....a CEAB piece of crap actually. Personally, I'd get a P crank so you can run a P200 flywheel and ducati ignition and shove all that in your Rally cases. Also, if you buy a P200 motor and don't replace the kickstart quadrant you'll have to use a P style kickstart. There's nothing inherently wrong with that but it's different than a Rally kickstart (and less visually appealing IMO). There's a lot of older 60's bikes out there with LML and P series motors shoved in them which retained the more modern style kickstart. I personally don't care for that style kickstart lever on an older bike where it doesn't look proper but I'm probably splitting hairs. Good luck!

Thanks so much for your input. This is the info I was looking for. That makes sense about the crank and I was thinking of going with the Ducati ignition. That being said the plan is stay with the rally motor. Stock piston and jug, p style crank like Advised. And possibly a sip 2.0 exhaust? Anything anyone would add or remove?