Modern Vespa

This is in response to George's proposal to fraction NSM into separate "banter" and "technical" subforums

Firstly, to be blunt, it's not gonna happen. Jess runs the site and NSM is a privilege that he allows to exist for our benefit but he's not going to rework the site to add more forums for us. NSM didn't exist at one time, and it was almost taken away several times.

But, for the sake of explaining why the idea wouldn't offer much anyway...

I previously argued: George responded: Why can't they - we have very real very correct knowledge posted all the time. Yes, there's always the risk that someone posts something they aren't sure 100% about, but even if they do the knowledgeable step in and say "No. Don't listen to this guy. The answer is...". I know you recently had your head spinning because you got a bunch of contradictory advice, but... frankly, it's not always black and white and sometimes you have to use some judgment to choose what to do.

You also need to realize that people with different levels of experience can still be right about different things. I'm not going to tell someone about port timing because I don't know anything about port timing. But I know plenty about tuning my SI 24/24 carb or changing a cruciform, so I'll happily offer advice on those issues even though I'm not even remotely close to a Rob Hodge. Ideally people weigh in on what they know and sit back and read on what they don't know. Who gets to say who has "the right" to post in the new "facts only" subforum, when someone who doesn't know squat about one thing might still be able to answer questions about another?

Conversely, what's to ensure that someone who truly THINKS they know 100% the correct answer (but doesn't) can't post a response? And then a back and forth ensues - and we are exactly where you don't want us to be: with the reader having to decide who to listen to. In my opinion, it's usually obvious. But sometimes it's two vets disagreeing, and then, again, you just have to use some judgment.

NSM is what it is - I think NSM would suck if we siphoned off much of the technical discussion. What would be left? 95% of the threads here are technical discussion. Then a handful of "shooting the breeze" posts and a dash of "anyone have opinions on what color to paint...". And likewise I think the new subforum would morph into a variant on NSM anyway.

maybe sub forums like wiring, body work, and engine work? but then again, I do like just clicking on "not-so-modern" and just scrolling through all the threads with a title that interest me.

X-frog, Thanks for trying to do this, but I betting 95% of the questions asked have already been answered. Sometimes the answer to a question is hidden in a thread that went off topic somehow, but most of the time it's there and takes the click of a mouse and two seconds to find. Also, it's just that when you tell a relatively new member to do a search they get pissed. Just sayin'

Yeah I agree. Maybe I wasn't very clear above - I'm not pitching the idea (it was george's), I just wanted to start this thread give a space for people to discuss it outside of other folks' misc threads.

https://modernvespa.com/forum/search.php

Thought this an excellent technical subject as its not been answered on the forum
george

I hope i,ve linked this correctly and giramassi finds his way here

I knew it was around here somewhere!

Sorry guys not intending to step on anyones toes ,i,ve been irritating lots of you guys with questions and you cant be expected to know everything on our silly euro emissions stuff

thought this was a good place to get new info posted on what's called " scatalizzare" sounds so cool i might even spoil my px with a sticker
george

Noted. If this was site that was concerned only with older Vespas, I would say OK. But it is not, so, nice suggestion, but it's not really needed. My 2 cents.

Hi George,
This wasn't meant to put you on the spot - this was just meant as a place for us to move our conversation out from scooterrorist's thread. There is nothing wrong with not knowing stuff and wanting answers. I think the Euro 3 thing is very interesting, and it's true many of us Americans probably didn't know about it until you brought it to light through your questions

Hi Mate cool ,i personally blame piaggio keep changing stuff its like a jigsaw all the parts fit ,but the pictures still wrong
I am eagerly awaiting "scatalizzare"every time i think i,ve got the definitive list ................................

george

how dare you sir,older vespa ...........my px is 12 weeks old lol
george

no

Hi guys sorry my humble apology its obviously a terrible idea..................i thought instead of sending private messages ,we could all possibly benefit from some of the unambiguous tech questions, and have topics that have general consensus ............. I have a PM that didn't want it posted on the open forum because he wanted to avoid getting embroiled in..........
george:wink:

After doing a little reading on the on the Vesparesources,con forum, I think you will find that "scatalizzare" is a generalized term used for all kinds of vehicles, and that there is no secret, magic bullet there for the new PXs. Just more of what has been discussed here: Exhaust, jets (all), carb slide and a check of timing. Nothing at all about specifically restoring to "pre-Euro 1", as in your quest.

xantufrog hit the nail on the head. There isn't a hell of a lot of "corporate experience" here about the Euro 3 PX. Maybe 6 to 10 members? So lots of speculation based on older pre-Euro 3 engines. And, since emissions controls are seen by many as an instrument of Satan himself, those folks who have never been within an oceans width of a Euro 3 Vespa can dream up some pretty demonic ideas about how it is done.

Funny thing is, for example, the variable timing. Some folks condemn it, because it is part and parcel to Euro 3. But then, take a peek at this thread, and variable timing is the cat's pajamas for performance.

Hi mate we are set on a spare px project engine ,new build or

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/engine+lml+for+vespa+p150x_78005500

or a newer low mileage euro 3 the new availability is a consideration and getting the right info will impact on which way we go,i now have a swanky camera and
i benefitted greatly from the xs650 video tutorials as i dont personally seem to absorb without images,

there are lots of not open to interpretation servicing mechanical procedures that would be nice to have in one place,clutch strip brake shoes etc we thought we would completely strip rebuild post in little video clips and others could do the same ,on the xs650 forum it actually cut down on duplicating the same questions "tech section Cam Chain Tensioner Adjustment-Video"

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13058

taking the laptop into the workshop watching the videos was a godsend

my only intention is learning about these great little bikes and perhaps a blog would be a better idea "didn't know what a blog was until late night lol"
my mate,s far more net savvy than i ,

PM,s have convinced me there are newer px owners that feel not quite
part of the classic but not really in the new vespa so are sometimes bewildered by the information they get,

Next year according to the shop guy there will not be a new px ,lml production is stopping on the 2 stroke so we will slip gracefully into the classic and 20 years from now the px125cc 2015 will be considered ..................................... who knows lol

george

By EU mandate, PTWs manufactured starting in 2016 must have ABS for larger than 125cc and linked braking systems for 125. That would mean hydraulic systems for front and rear. Possibly could do linked as was done on the COSA, but I would imagine fitting ABS to the rear drum brake would be quite the task.

So, whether 2T or not, Piaggio would have some high hurdles to cross to continue the PX, even without emissions issues. LML, will also face the brake issue on their 4T Stars, and will be interesting to see if they give it a go.

Hi mate I understand all the emissions and reg,s and i honestly do believe in recycling carbon footprint but no 2 strokes ............................. brought up on a diet of roberts sheene rainey mamola ,fast freddie brands hatch transatlantic trophy donington ,mamola snetterton mighty ....


http://www.gizmag.com/honda-two-stroke-with-fuel-injection-patent-filing/38529/
if this is correct might be time to buy a honda,just got back in from a ride sunny day in the uk in november ,soon as the bike starts brings a smile to my face

george

of course, everyone has the right to super secret PMs of real advice. But, two comments on that:
1) unless it is a PM from one of the flat out experts on vintage Vespas, what's to tell you their advice is correct while advice from someone posted publicly is not?

2) assuming they do have the requisite expertise, it would sure be nice if they DID post "the facts" publicly. I'm picturing some thread on Euro 3, with a bunch of public speculation and argument, and then someone who knows sent you a PM with the real dealio "because they don't want to get embroiled"... but that does the group a big disservice, because the rest of the mob is in the dark. Hopefully, if an expert has expertise to offer, they take the time to post it publicly. No need to see it as getting embroiled - if the mob ignores the advice, at least the expert made an effort and maybe some wise members of the mob will listen

Well, george, as I noted elsewhere, there are perhaps 6 - 10 Euro 3 owners active here. Many are new to Vespas like yourself. The vast majority of folks here have probably never seen a Euro 3 Vespa, no less worked on one. So the odds are that some pieces of the info you are looking for are not available from the usual suspects here. All we non-Euro 3 guys can do is speculate, based on theory of operation of internal combustion engines.

As to dealers, all they will typically know about the new stator and variable advance ignition, for example, is what's in the shop manual. Shop manuals rarely cover theory, just troubleshooting, repair and replace. The Euro 3 PX has a variable advance. What's static advance, and what's the curve over the RPM range? Is a different static and curve required if you drop the cat exhaust and make the resulting jetting corrections? Ain't gonna find other than STOCK static advance and perhaps advance at a set higher RPM in the shop manual, so unless the dealer has done some experimenting and dyno testing, he ain't gonna be an expert on removing the Euro 3 stuff.

So, NSM is not the optimal place to ask, "How can I return my brand new Euro 3 engine to pre-Euro 1". We've never seen nor worked on a Euro 3 engine, so we can only speculate. Do you visit a proctologist when you have a sinus infection? Just because he's a doctor doesn't qualify him as the best source of info for all parts of the body. The NSM crew has no animosity towards newer PXs. We just can't answer the above question with confidence.

We'll help you as best we can, and I trust that if you do find out how to de-Euro 3 your scooter and prove it's efficacy, that you will share it here for other Euro 3 folks to ponder and for us non-Euro 3 guys to learn from.

if ya want a more in depth tuning chat try sbw .... its a slow site as basefook has taken over but tuners go on there ... if you want an answer in a hour thats not gonna happen ... maybe a month

youve gotta seen ozs rotax or pxts1