Modern Vespa

Ok, I've rebuilt my '74 rally and I can't get it to kick over.

I pull choke, throttle 1/4-1/2 open and kick and kick to nothing. Eventually I got a backfire or two putters then dead.

I know it's getting fuel, I remove air filter and saw the jet. I took out the plug, leaving attached and I get a bright blue arc.

I'm wondering if timing is off? Or if gap is correct? I don't have a gap tool so maybe I should buy one.

please help!

Timing and/or gap.
Is the plug wet?
Don't twist the throttle when it's choked.

Are you running a Femsa system on that 74?

Youre gap doesnt seem to be the problem because you have a spark...whether its the right gap is irrelevant at the moment.
All things are pointing to your timing. Whats it set at? If you havent set it you could probably kick it over all day long and still get the same splutter!
Kevin

You have spark, and should check the timing. Still, when kick starting, leave the throttle alone, the scoot should start on the choke if cold and no throttle if warm.

I didn't do anything with the timing, so it sounds like that is the place to focus attention.

I researched a bit and saw video on how to set timing on a small frame. I couldn't find any threads or vids on timing for a Rally. Other than that I need to make sure proper distance between points. I will check that distance next.

To answer question, I removed femsa and am using a new CDI. I've read enough threads of people saying femsa would fail so I figured I would just replace during my rebuild.

Thanks for all the help.

To just replace the black box with a CDI won't work. I figure that's what you did, anyway.

Here's an article with some instructions by Jan Haugsted.

http://vespa-klub.dk/Rally_CDI.HTM

That's a good explanation of the difference between the FEMSA and Ducati systems and what's needed to convert without swapping out the crank and stator.

If you Rally ran before the rebuild, and you still have the FEMSA, put it back on and check. You didn't say what your rebuild consisted of, but if you had the stator plate off your timing could be off as well as mentioned above. You referred also to distance between points-the '74 rally doesn't have points, but there is a gap between the sensor coil and trigger ring on the crank.

I tore down and rebuilt nearly everything. So yes, I removed stator. I had crank replaced as well, all new bearings, etc. I meant earlier to refer to the gap between pickup and the trigger ring. Is that the only adjustment to make for timing? Other than measuring/adjusting gap, I'm not sure what else I can adjust for timing.

My replacement ignition doesn't match that referenced Ducati CDI. I bought from SIP :http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/ignition+coil+effe+for+vespa+_85001000
It doesn't have a White lead. I think mine is intended to replace the femsa with a femsa-like ignition. But I'm a newbie to rebuilds so I defer to all of your expertise.

there it is mate, youve answered your own question.


that new coil needs a coat of looking at

Your gap is likely OK if you have a fat blue spark & looks like you found the right(and expensive) replacement CDI ignition for your Rally. I have the same type on my '76 Rally and the nice thing is that when mine 'died', I was able to fix it by just replacing the separate hi tension coil. If you marked the stator location before you pulled it & put it back in the same place, the motor should run, even if not yet as well as after you get the timing set perfectly. I've found these motors are fairly forgiving that way.

So... again, IS your plug wet? If you're seeing gas going thru the carb and you're choking w/ throttle open, I would guess it's flooded. Happens to me more than I'd care to admit. What I've done : Pull & dry the plug or use a another new one. Close the fuel tap & kick it over 15-20 times w/ plug out & throttle full open. Now install clean plug, try again w/ gas tap still closed, no choke & maybe a little throttle.

Now if it won't even pop, and if you find the plug is wet still/again, repeat the above. If it's dry this time put a spoon of gas right down carb throat & try again. Once it fires up & revs you can open the fuel tap & try it the normal way.

Note- if you used a lot of 2T oil for your motor reassembly, that may complicate things showing a 'wet' plug when you still haven't got enough gas in the cylinder. That's why I like the spoon of gas down the carb when the going gets tough.

There may be better methods but this has always worked for me when I have spark AND the timing is in the ballpark.

Good Luck!

I didn't mark the flywheel before I removed it originally. I guess that was the first mistake. How should I recover from that?

Also, I seem to recall the flywheel had a notch in it, to align with the woodruff? I could be wrong, but if so then is t that the means to ensure properly timed?

If you have the original Femsa stator you can only install it one way.

If you can post photos of what you have installed it'll cut down on a lot of guessing FYI.

I will pull the cover and flywheel and send photos.

Quick question. Did you make sure the timing cam was put on the right way? Did you see the letters pointing to you saying " Lato Esterno"? I was at the same place you are at, no start, only backfire. That was my culprit. You might want to make sure if you are not sure.

The slot in the flywheel aligns with the slot/woodruff key on the crank. To adjust the timing, the stator plate is rotated by loosening the mounting screws and turning the entire plate either clock-wise or couter-clockwise slightly. The slots in the stator base are there for this purpose.

As Voodoo mentioned, a fat blue spark indicates the trigger/sensor are gapped properly, so the timing is suspect if you have fuel. (I am assuming you have good compression after the rebuild.) As Dwight Schmidt mentioned, make sure the trigger cam is on the flywheel properly.

If you are going to comment at least know the differences between a Femsa stator on a Rally and the later Ducati stator.

The Femsa is static.

And who in the hell keeps saying something about points gap? Femsatronic is "electronic" and does not have points.

I guess on the weekends it is just the novices?

Read it all again, you are the only one mentioning points gap. Others were talking about sensor/trigger gap which seems OK and have moved on. CR already cleared that up AND explained the flywheel must be keyed properly to the crank. Nobody here is perfect, but MJ has ALREADY stated that stator is static(thanks for the reminder, Malcolm) and Dwight has explained that the timing cam needs to be on right.

Most here are trying to help OP get his motor going again, What are you trying to do to help, Mr Expert? Never mind, I think the novices have probably got him pointed in the right direction. Or maybe I got it all wrong.

Not seeing the writing on the cam. Guess I need to start by turning that around.

TWO specialty sites for Rally 200 owners that may help you on your next problem.
http://www.scooterrescue.com/the-rally-200.html & http://vesparally200.tumblr.com/

And the owners manual here if you haven't got it.
http://scooterhelp.com/serial/VSE1T.manual.html

Ok. Can reversed. Anything else I should check before reattaching flywheel?

Do I need to align the flywheel in any particular manner? Should this notch in back of flywheel align with woodruff?

I think you're on the right track. From the manual, here's the 'gap' being referred to, as you already know no points involved.

Yep, you almost got it, actually align the keyway in the tapered bore to the key. Now see if you can fire that puppy up!

That gap cannot be changed.

That's true, but it can be measured if you have no spark & are looking for possible causes or they wouldn't have put it in the manual. Are you within spec or not? It's the 'gap' being referred to here earlier by everybody else but you.

It has already been eliminated as the cause of OP's problem, so what's your point and how does this help him?

Just read the WHOLE thread first before posting if you'd like to help get this motor running. I acknowledge that you know a LOT more about this stuff than I do and could likely help this new guy if you wanted to.

I think he found the issue (trigger cam). He's a confessed new guy to this motor stuff, so I think pointing out a gap that can't be changed is foolish.

Put the cam on correctly, put the flywheel back on. Try to start it.

Does't start? Go back through a trouble shooting scheme.

OK, good. NOW you are up to speed and my post was foolish. Just wanted to clarify the gap you seemed confused about, which was apparently not necessary as new guy already figured it out before you posted. Fair enough.

Peace.

OK, semi guilty. Without checking I was relying on memory of a reworked stator plate I had in stock which I had looked at more recently than the one that's currently installed. But checking the one that's installed, it appears there might just be a couple degrees of adjustment, which is what Voodoo's diagram seems to show as well. I'll ride, wrench, and watch the sidelines and let the pros advise and opine.

I replaced everything and tried to kick it over. This time I'm not getting any spark. Multimeter shows nothing coming off the stator. So I've pulled the stator out and I'm discovering a mess.

Firstly, one of the leads from a coil came away from the solder point. I'm hoping that was the primary issue.

The stator has been modified from original. There are no yellow wires coming off it at all. I believe that someone wired the coils in parallel to cheaply convert to 12v. That would explain the single 12v regulator used in place of the rectifier and the 12v bulbs all around.

Guess I need to decide if I want to maintain the mods, revert back to original myself or send in to have the stator rewired.

I'm considering just getting this: http://www.scooterwest.com/items/?_pageCCS=t#page=/item_details/High-Output-Stator-Kit-P200-Rally-200/11041

Although it's awfully pricey. It may save me hours of head scratching.

It sounds like the stator was run that way to get 12v lights.

That stator your looking at buying won't work with your femsa set up. You would need to convert the crank, flywheel, regulator, lights, CDI...etc.

You can try rewiring your old stator, or try to find another 6v Rally stator, I think I still have my old one if your interested.

I would rewire the old stator......sounds like someone did something in there which needs to be addressed. Personally, I'm not one to drop $300 bills and think that'll solve the issue when your stator probably just needs some attention.

Second, I did the Ducati CDI conversion referenced above and I'd seriously recommend considering it. The CEAB Femsa CDI replacements which are available are trash. I got one and it didn't work out of the box. There's a reason Piaggio went with and stayed with a Ducati system, plus Ducati CDI's are cheap and readily available. Use the parts numbers from the page referenced above to obtain the capacitors and resistors you need to make the conversion then order some from any online electronic parts retailer...I think mine cost about $1 and I just made a proper wiring yoke to run the stuff into my Ducati CDI.

This should get you running but I'd still consider ditching any extra wiring crap in the body like signals and the such.....all I have on mine is headlight, taillight, and the key wired in to cut out the ignition because my kill switch was broken....once I source a good 12v A/C rally horn I'll wire that up as well but for now I've got no horn....anyow, post some more pic of the wiring on your stator...sounds questionable.

Good advice all, thanks for the help. I'm happy to attempt a rewire, but I'd like reliably good wiring diagram and parts list. Seems so many people have developed custom wiring Solutions I've lost track of good plans on a reliable starting point.

I will send photos when I can. Small kids and full time job make progress slow.

http://www.scooterhelp.com/electrics/pages/VSE1T.rally200e.htm

I wired up a bridge rectifier to my 6v A/C horn using Radio Shack parts specifically to deal with the 12v D/C coming off my stator. Another solution is to mount a 12v D/C horn somewhere else on the bike and keep the original horn for looks.

I've seen that. It doesn't show the wires meeting on the junction bar within the stator. That is the detail I'd really like to see.

Also, the indicator switch on that one is not correct for my year (1974). I have the round switch, not the rectangular switch.

If your bike has a battery with keys, then this should be the wiring diagram you need:
http://www.scooterhelp.com/electrics/wiring/VSE1.wKey.Batt.Blinks.B1977.pdf

But from your pictures, and the fact that you have no yellow wires, it looks like you may have the stator for a key, no battery set up:
http://www.scooterhelp.com/electrics/wiring/VSE1.key.nobatt.pdf

I'll PM some pics of my old stator when I get home.

You said you had spark when the "lato esterno" cam was on backward, but now nothing? Was the bike running before you got it?

If you're new and want it to work and willing to spend some bills, send that stator off to someone who's done one before. I recommend these three in no particular order:
Scooter West
Stooter Mercato
Scooters Originali

These guys know their stuff and you won't have to spend time guessing if you did it right. I know the forum is here to help us DIY, but some areas are worth farming out if you are a novice.

I am not convinced he has the right stator on his bike. It looks like a Euro stator on a US Bike. What wires are running to your rectifier? Since you are in Seattle: http://www.hodgespeed.com/