Modern Vespa

Automobile was wrong but the policeman made a bone headed mistake. Never, never put yourself in a position where you have no avenue of escape. You will get plenty of those without initiating them yourself.

I've never seen police block a lane on an expressway to allow an ambulance to merge. Anytime you start compressing two lanes into one you can expect problems even when you have merg warning signs hundreds of feet in advance. The officer pulled right out in front of a truck when it showed no inclination to pull over. The truck was very slow to react and pull over and only one car in the lane behind the truck moved to the other lane. There were three cars lined up on a collision course with the motorcop. Really, how much time did the yellow car really have to see the cop and process the fact that he wasn't moving. Not sure hi-viz had any bearing on the outcome.

I'm really puzzled by this blame-the-victim mentality, particularly from our UK friends.

Do you folks never have to stop or change lanes because of a disabled car in your lane, or a big pothole, or some major debris? Surely a public safety vehicle -- even a scooter -- with emergency lights strobing is more visible than any of these. Over here, one can rarely complete a freeway trip without encountering a large "road gator" (a detached large-truck tire tread) smack in the middle of one's lane.

Part of the problem may be following too closely for the speed so that the stopped vehicle or obstruction doesn't become visible until too late. Regardless, it's still completely the fault of the driver who can't stop, and the driver in this case was either following too closely, comatose, inattentive or distracted... or any combination of the above.

me too and i live here
i,m amazed its a police bike with sirens and flashing lights hi viz and you don't see it........in my opinion you shouldn't be on the road, to me the lorry moves over then the car behind moves over perfect visibility , probably on the phone

recent events in paris show the emergency services and military are the bastions of our safety and security and put there lives on the line on our behalf every day, hope the policeman has made a full recovery ,and you never know when your going to need one
george

EVERYTHING is a risk.

Is Hi-Viz more risk or less I can't say. On one side you have the Hi-Viz that some people will see you. On the other side you have "target fixation" where people may aim at you with your Hi-Viz. You also have the human "risk compensation" having you looking just a bit less.

The video that started this thread was a cop, hi-viz clothing, flashing lights, and was hit. In 50 years I have never tried to be visible, I expect to be invisible, I want to be invisible; it is my responsible to see and avoid everything else. So far, so good -- I have never been hit.

That's 3 "ifs" right there. It would be nice to think that all drivers on the roads are alert but after a couple of hours on the freeway anyone's mind can start drift without a break. Anyone who travels with their wife or kids knows it's hard to not get distracted (mobile phones & GPS are perhaps their automated equivalent). Everyone travels at what they think is a reasonable speed, unfortunately it doesn't always tie in with the speed limit. That's a lot of "ifs" to put your life on the line for. We don't have aggro for the police rider, they do a difficult job, but if you look at what he did from a risk and reward point of view then it doesn't look clever. The risks are obvious from the video and he was probably quite lucky to live. The ambulance could easily merge with the motorway traffic so there was no requirement to block the lane so there was no real reward to gain from riding his bike into the path of oncoming traffic.

I haven't got a blame the victim mentality

I am viewing this incident from a PTW riders point of view (my only point of reference), who is constantly reminded both anecdotally and from personal experience that we should consider ourselves invisible

I don't know the outcome of any resulting case against the car driver, but if it was in the UK, I should imagine he may have been convicted of the offense 'driving without due care and attention'. My experience (again) is that a good many cagers drive without 'due care and attention' and I factor this into my riding

whilst I understand that emergency service providers / law enforcers have to go above and beyond on a daily basis and don't necessarily have time to carry out a thorough risk assessment for every incident, it appeared in this instance that the LEO put his life on the line needlessly and without due diligence

It might not be fashionable these days but i see the police ,army ,etc as being a bit like our royal family ,and as they don't actually dictate policy just implement it, I back them whether i'm in favor or not because they are the custodians of our security and safety,

now i'm sure we've all encountered some young ,pompous ,obnoxious policemen "cos i have lol" but i temper my irritation because one day that pimply irritating kid may be asked to lay down his life on our behalf ,for that and there office they get special treatment

Rule 219 highway code
Emergency and Incident Support vehicles. You should look and listen for ambulances, fire engines, police, doctors or other emergency vehicles using flashing blue, red or green lights and sirens or flashing headlights, or traffic officer and incident support vehicles using flashing amber lights.

this incident cannot just be seen as just a guy on a bike "its a policeman hi viz sirens wailing flashing lights if he rode into the center of the road "slow and Stop" You should look and listen they have priority,i think what is very worrying is there seems to be a trend to blame others as it negates personal responsibility,

london bike thefts .........defective cosmetic surgery........fake medicine..........exploding fake power supplies..........i,m fat its macdonald ..i,m thin its the magazines..............website created for adultery

its never ending

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-19699/Alcohol-abuse-costing-Britain-6bn-year.html

this entitled to everything responsible for nothing mentality is outrages

if your tired or the kids are creating havoc,or the phone rings you need to look at a map ........dont kill some other poor sod
just "pull over "

george

the highway code could've been put to good use here, just drop a pallet of them in the middle of the road, same outcome without the injured cop

Precisely. We should not rely on others to notice us. It was a UK police rider who told me that, a dozen or so years ago. I've since been told the same thing by other police riders, when taking further training.

There were (I'm pretty sure) three police bikes escorting that ambulance, and there's a long entry lane onto the motorway, which runs parallel to the motorway for a fair while (i.e. traffic on the motorway would have a good chance of seeing a motorcade containing an ambulance and three police bikes with flashing lights and hi viz, and then moving over to allow them to get on the motorway).

Is anyone seriously saying that the safest way to ensure that the ambulance merges onto the motorway without undue delay was to have a single officer go on (very far) ahead and try to halt one lane of the motorway on his own? Do you think that unfortunate officer would do the same thing next time?

I like to see police officers doing their job, not in hospital. I think that rider was in a high pressure situation, made a poor judgement call, put himself in avoidable danger, and unfortunately paid a price for it.

Yes, the driver should have been travelling at a speed, and at a distance from the truck, that allowed him to stop more quickly. But was it sensible to trust your life to the assumption that other drivers would do the right thing? I don't think so.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery to the officer.

George, and others, I think you have to be careful not to confuse what's being said here.

Saying: "I don't think that's the safest way to get an ambulance onto the motorway", or "I think that, although people should be paying attention, it's not wise to trust your life to assume that they will be paying attention", has no bearing on whether people trust or respect or are in favour of the police.

How can we possibly know that the officer's action were needles?
I've never seen an ambulance escorted by the police. Looks very serious to me.

Lets say the policeman was a random object i.e blown out tyre or a run away cow,
If you put yourself in the car and had the same outcome (hit the object) who would you blame?
1. The tyre because it shouldn't have been there
2. The cow because it got lost
3. Yourself because you wasn't looking
My personal view would be that I would blame myself for not noticing the object or giving myself time to react. Just my 2peneth!

any Dutch speaking members..

They are, but they are also human and make mistakes just like the rest of us. Blindly backing things without any thought isn't good at all for democracy George. Quite the opposite George. Here we have a lot of people stating it's 100% the drivers fault for hitting him but if you're going to drive out onto a freeway and stop dead in front of other traffic then there's a little "personal responsibility" right there as well. I can't see what this has to do with anything here George. The foreign language and driving on the other side of the ride kind of suggest they probably don't follow our highway code. Even here in the UK, I believe the "you should" part of the sentence means it's not actually law, it's just saying you should stop as opposed to must stop. We all know what people should do but they don't. The whole point of riding defensively is to accept this. Just look at the traffic on the motorway. Would you have the slightest problem joining the traffic? At best the officers actions wouldn't speed the ambulance along, at worst (as actually happened), he delayed the ambulance from getting to the hospital.

I try to expect the unexpected, but then because I expected it, it wasn't unexpected anymore, so I didn't expect it, and then it became unexpected again, so I expected it, but then because...

arghhhhhhhhhhh

I see your point, but we still don't know what's really going on and why is the ambulance escorted.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the "the cop should have been more careful" argument.
A lorry changing into a fast lane on a dual carriage way is ,in itself, enough of a signal to those behind that there is something in the way. No rocket science here.

bear in mind that when he sees the lorry move over, closely followed by the car immediately in front, he may have thought it's because there's an ambulance about to merge from the right, so he checks his left wing mirror to see if it's safe to pull into the overtaking lane (it isn't, there's a car already there), but surely he can get past the junction before the ambulance...

oh shit, swerves

oh double shit

I'm no Sherlock, but in the space of a handful of seconds, I can see what may have happened..?

(but he was driving too close to vehicle in front, as was the one behind and in front of him)

with sirens hi viz and flashing lights ,its a police bike ........................ totally agree so to not notice sirens hi viz and flashing lights ............... because its indicative of the blameless culture,two posts on here where the police are blamed to some degree .i see no blame in either

I dont think it was malicious ,but i,m from a generation that hearing a siren and seeing flashing lights ,has an automatic reaction of caution and heightened awareness,the respect for the police is sadly at an all time low in the uk and where once if in doubt "ask a bobby" i have a mate serving that feels almost under siege..............

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-34441624

30 years ago viewing that footage, i think the automatic reaction would have been horror at a serving police officer being injured by a negligent driver.

Running into a burning building would seem totally foolhardy to me ,but put on a uniform and have to make that judgment call it changes everything,and in emergencies If flashing lights and sirens aren't enough to get your attention ...................what is
george

I'm a bit confused by this George. You're saying you don't like a blameless culture but then when we put some of the blame on the rider you say he's blameless. Would you say he needed to stop the traffic to allow the ambulance to join the motorway? Would you say that stopping in the middle of the road represented some danger to himself and oncoming traffic? Would you say his manoeuvre allowed the ambulance to get to the hospital quicker?

Sure the driver is 90% to blame for hitting him but if he didn't stop in the middle of motorway traffic then there wouldn't of been an accident in the first place.

The risk/reward point of view seems interesting. And it seems to me that the reward was potentially saving a life, you know, the one in the ambulance. Look, these guys and gals put themselves in risky situations all the time, it's their job and is worth noting I think. But it is one thing to knowingly put yourself in a risky position (as the officer did) and do so recklessly (which I do not think is the case here). It is entirely another thing for a driver to be inattentive or whatever caused the car to collide with the officer. The car, in my opinion, was following too closely. When was the last time in moderate traffic on an interstate that you saw cars following each other with a 2 second gap? Regardless of actual cause, the car driver is IMHO 100% at fault here.

The results of a quick Google search indicates that the rider came out of it relatively un-scathed (considering he was thrown 6 foot into the air!), so with that in mind, it's refreshing to think that we can debate an emotive subject without slinging bad karma about

Healthy disagreement is a good thing, it's when we start chucking things at each other that it all goes pear shaped

you are completely missing the point its not a rider "its a police officer sporting hiviz with sirens wailing and lights flashing" stopping traffic for an ambulance with lights and sirens ,denoting an emergency !!!!!!! no i dont .... i'm referring to the feckless and foolish ,not a serving police officer thats decision could mean life or death and puts his life on the line every day on my behalf,often without concern for his or her own safety.

I would go so far as to say it was a brave and selfless act as his only intention was helping the poor sod in the ambulance
i sleep better knowing our police and military are prepared to make those decisions most of us too frightened or are unwilling to take, and we are perfectly happy to avail ourselves of the protection it affords us


george

George, you seem to have missed my questions:
* Would you say he needed to stop the traffic to allow the ambulance to join the motorway?
* Would you say that stopping in the middle of the road represented some danger to himself and oncoming traffic?
* Would you say his manoeuvre allowed the ambulance to get to the hospital quicker?

[edit] You also seem to feel I'm anti-police in some way when I'm definitely not. I chair a neighbour hood safety group and work closely with the police on matters in my area. I also report at police inspectors meetings and get on very well with them.

But George, the fact that he's a police rider - with lights, sirens, hi viz, etc - does not make him invulnerable. IMO, he acts as if he is invulnerable, and IMO this is an irrational thing to do.

That officer's first responsibility in that situation is to make sure HE stays alive, so that he can help the ambulance get to the hospital. Putting yourself in harm's way unnecessarily is great in superhero comics, but not so much in real life.

We all know that other road users are far from perfect. In fact, we tell each other to expect them not to notice us. We all know that they should notice us, and of course - in an ideal world - they should have noticed that officer.

However, the fact that they didn't notice him in time to stop safely is (IMO) a foreseeable event, i.e. a real risk that's present all the time. I expect that officer knows this much more than I do, and I was really surprised to see him pull that manoeuvre.

None of the above implies any disrespect for the police. It would help the discussion if you accepted that and didn't keep harking back to it.

Like all human beings, however well trained, I'm just saying that he took a risk that:

- I don't think needed to be taken (as IMO the ambulance could easily have got onto the carriageway without that officer trying to stop the traffic)
- is well known and very predictable, and could have easily been avoided

you are still completely missing the point "its a police officer sporting hiviz with sirens wailing and lights flashing" your questions are not valid , you are required to stop ,not paying attention is just not good enough if he was in the same position because of a suicidal woman laying on the ground on the motorway or any life threatening emergency ,its a police vehicle lit up like a christmas tree with howling sirens ,its not open to debate you don't get to chose just slow and stop,

come on mate ......you ride ,you know how much time that car had,i ride a px125 with 10"wheels with dubious grip and i could have stopped lol dont think i'm making myself clear

If the lights are red ,i have to stop ...................there is no justification for not stopping,and i do see not complying with the lights sirens actions and directions of the police officer as disrespectful to the office ,yes he took a calculated risk to himself for a stranger ,i hope it hasn't frightened him from making others on our behalf ,as the world is in need of a few superheros,
george

I'll answer your points and then perhaps you can answer my questions.

It's a police officer: the lorry driver had lots of time to see what was happening and changed lanes. The time for the cars behind gets progressively less as they approach the police rider who has stopped in the lane. The driver of the yellow car has approximately 2 seconds between seeing the driver, comprehending that he is actually standing in the middle of the road, maybe they check their mirrors to see if outside lane is free, then they realise they can't avoid him. If they were looking in their mirrors as the lorry pulled out then that would give them even less time to see that the obstruction. I'm not saying the driver is blameless but I'm just describing what probably happened.

sporting hiviz with sirens wailing and lights flashing : we can see all that because we have a great view of the whole incident. The driver of the yellow car can just see the back of a lorry.

you ride ,you know how much time that car had,i ride a px125 with 10"wheels with dubious grip and i could have stopped lol : assuming your behind the lorry and only get to see the police rider once the lorry moves over. The distance is approximately 2 lorry lengths, say 70 feet. If you're travelling at 70mph then a super sports CBR600RR takes 126 feet to stop. If you jam your brakes on then you won't be able to steer. I think you'll hit him George.

its not open to debate you don't get to chose just slow and stop : as I said, in the highway code it states you should stop. That's different from you must stop. The difference about the wording is explained quite clearly in the front of the book. Needless to say this isn't the UK so the highway code doesn't apply in this case.

Perhaps you could now answer my questions?

Yes, if the lights are red, the law says I have to stop. And maybe there's some marvellous place where everyone follows every law all the time. But I don't think that place exists outside science fiction.

If I watch the lights turning red for the traffic on the road I want to cross, and, based solely on that observation, with no further checks on my part, I decide that it's safe for me to cross the road, when I know full well that a significant proportion of people don't obey red lights, and I get run over, then surely I'm contributing to my own downfall?

When I'm teaching my 6 yr old to cross the road, I don't just say: "Cross on the green man", because that would be giving her a view of the world that is too simplistic and downright dangerous. I tell her that even if the green man is showing, she needs to be aware of the possibility that not everyone will do what they're supposed to do, and so she has to have a darn good look before she crosses.

We all know what the law is, in simple cases like these, but we also all know that lots of people don't obey lots of laws lots of the time, so the sensible souls take that knowledge and use it to inform their choices.

Who would know better than a policeman that people don't always do what the law says they should do? Isn't that exactly why we have policemen in the first place?

all fake..

Policeman Hit (Video)

Search suggests not fake. Video from 2009. Some news reports indicated officer suffered fractured vertebrae and jaw as well as a concussion. Lucky to have survived--a testament to the benefits of good protective gear. Certainly, not the best way to stop traffic and a foreseeable result. Still, driver of the car was at least guilty of following too closely, as most do most often, and not paying attention. Been said before: we're invisible; ride as though no one knows you're there.

guys i'm not disputing any of your assertions people do stupid sh*t,you are right it's not a perfect world and not all the decisions we make are the right ones, the video was sent to me by a mate basically said "how fuc*ed up is this and how the fu*k dident they see the cop "as i said if a girl had fallen from a lorry was lying injured in exactly the spot he stopped ,she would have been run over

method doesn't matter ,its that the intention was caring brave and honorable,i'm sure several police officers have lost there lives making decisions i would possibly see as reckless or misguided or even stupid ,but the fact they risk there lives for our way of live is the important part

we are just looking at this from a different perspective,for me the blues and twos represent more than just lights and sound,i feel the fabric of society is slowly being degraded somehow and i don't want people to be frightened of the police but when i was a kid caught scrumping got a clump round the ear taken home,but felt safe there was law and order no one messed with the police , and i'm not saying anything in this thread is disrespecting the police .........sorry i,m a grumpy old man reflecting on easier pre road rage more courteous times
george



george

No problem George, have a good evening.

Ditto. I guess we'll always disagree on this, George, but all the best and thanks for putting your views forward.