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@vesperia avatar
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Hooked
'74 super, '07 tzaizhouzing (faux big ruckus)
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@vesperia avatar
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It sorta smells like turpentine. Or gas/oil mix. And there was a lot of it. I took out the fill screw first and it gushed out that hole, and then when it stopped I took out the drain screw and more came out. I just bought the scooter in February, and I'm pretty sure the oil hadn't been changed in years.

I had a 2T oil leak caused by incorrect gasket for autolube (no hole) so maybe some gas/oil got in there?? 2 stroke oil leak '74 super - carb/airbox gaskets?

BTW, it's running and shifting fabulously now that I changed out the oil. It actually ran pretty great before I changed out the oil. Spark plug is chocolate brown.

Should I worry? Or just change the oil again in a few months and see what happens?
@jamesjohn avatar
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Ossessionato
1970 Vespa Rally 180
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
Engine running the best it has in years?

Gear oil pours out like water over the edge of Niagra Falls?

Clutch side oil seal is toast. You can do a test before a complete engine overhaul. Just get the engine idling, and put your hand over the Venturi on the carb. Does the engine die or keep running?

Edit: not a pro, get some more opinions
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Sounds like your clutch side oil seal is bad. You can do a leak down test to verify. I wouldn't ride it till you've replaced the seal or verified it's good through the test. If you ride it without addressing the problem, the seal could go completely, suddenly causing you to run lean and seize.
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Hooked
'74 super, '07 tzaizhouzing (faux big ruckus)
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UTC quote
jamesjohn wrote:
Engine running the best it has in years?

Gear oil pours out like water over the edge of Niagra Falls?

Clutch side oil seal is toast. You can do a test before a complete engine overhaul. Just get the engine idling, and put your hand over the Venturi on the carb. Does the engine die or keep running?

Edit: not a pro, get some more opinions
Okay, so if it dies, or if it runs, what could that mean? which one is good? (i'm a glass half-full type)
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Hooked
'74 super, '07 tzaizhouzing (faux big ruckus)
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Neurotic-Hapi-Snak wrote:
Sounds like your clutch side oil seal is bad. You can do a leak down test to verify. I wouldn't ride it till you've replaced the seal or verified it's good through the test. If you ride it without addressing the problem, the seal could go completely, suddenly causing you to run lean and seize.
okay. I'm new, but I can probably search 'leak down test' and figure it out. Or you could explain? or just include a link to some explanation, that works, too.
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1970 Vespa Rally 180
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If you choke the normal aspiration, and it keeps running, then it's getting air from somewhere else which is bad.

Do the leak down test to know for sure. Thanks Neurotic
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It should die. If you block of the carb, no air should be albe to get into the engine, killing it. If it doesn't die, that means it's sucking air from somewhere else, which it shouldn't.
@aviator47 avatar
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2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
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I doubt your gasket issue could have caused 5his. Thus, as others say, check the 8ntegrity of the clutch side seal.
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Neurotic-Hapi-Snak wrote:
It should die. If you block of the carb, no air should be albe to get into the engine, killing it. If it doesn't die, that means it's sucking air from somewhere else, which it shouldn't.
So if it dies, that's good, right? I can try this out tomorrow, it's dark right now and my neighbors might be mad if I start it up.

Is that what a 'leak down test' is??
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Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
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Molto Verboso
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It's a simple test for the clutch side seal, not a full leak down test.
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Hooked
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Right. Thanks everyone!
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Some may not agree with this.... But it is normal for a healthy clutch seal to let a teeny bit of petrol through..you know how much that stuff stinks even a tiny amount so you may be ok
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healthy seals seal, not leak tinny or big amounts.

easy check is to put a lighter to drained oil. if it burns it's mixed with gasoline.

it should be noted that old, dirty engine internals smell horrible, even when all seals are in good condition. it's the issue of non-detergent oil that was discussed little while ago.
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'70 Super 150, Medley 150S, '23 Ducati Monster SP
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pullmyfinger wrote:
if it burns it's mixed with gasoline.

.
Don't blow yourself up.
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Hooked
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pullmyfinger wrote:
easy check is to put a lighter to drained oil. if it burns it's mixed with gasoline.
Well, I tried this. It doesn't burn. The oil is very dark and it doesn't appear to have any impurities in it, other than a few teensy metal shavings I fished out with a big magnet. It does smell bad, like turpentine. And it has a slight blue tinge, which makes me think 2T was getting in there somehow. Is it possible it was leaking in from under the carb box? It definitely had the wrong seal under there, it was too short.

Are there any other signs/symptoms of a clutch side seal leak that I would see from the outside?
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vesperia wrote:
pullmyfinger wrote:
easy check is to put a lighter to drained oil. if it burns it's mixed with gasoline.
Well, I tried this. It doesn't burn. The oil is very dark and it doesn't appear to have any impurities in it, other than a few teensy metal shavings I fished out with a big magnet. It does smell bad, like turpentine. And it has a slight blue tinge, which makes me think 2T was getting in there somehow. Is it possible it was leaking in from under the carb box? It definitely had the wrong seal under there, it was too short.

Are there any other signs/symptoms of a clutch side seal leak that I would see from the outside?
If it's just excess fluid in the gearbox, with no gasoline content, then yes, it could be 2T oil from the improper gasket, etc in the autolube. Autolube is driven by a shaft that comes from the gearbox. Gear oil lubes it, and there is a return path for gear oil to circulate. When autolube is correctly operating, the 2T is isolated from the gear oil path. Otherwise, with bad gaskets, or other problems, it is quite possible for 2T to cross over into the gear oil system.

Your plug color seems to rule out a leaking seal. Ride judiciously and check frequently for oil buildup and plug color.
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Neurotic-Hapi-Snak wrote:
It should die. If you block of the carb, no air should be albe to get into the engine, killing it. If it doesn't die, that means it's sucking air from somewhere else, which it shouldn't.
I tried this tonight, just to be sure. It died immediately when I blocked the carb.

Thanks to everyone for your advice, you guys are the best.
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Use a bigger flame and try again. Keep your eyebrows clear.
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pullmyfinger wrote:
Use a bigger flame and try again. Keep your eyebrows clear.
I did just that. It just won't light. I'm thinking no gas in the gearbox oil, which is a good thing, eh?
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UTC quote
no burn means you're solid good to go riding. the bad smell is your bike's unmentionables not being taken care of. likely scenario is you threw modern oil in the old girl and it dislodged some ancient sludge, thereby releasing nasty scents. flush the oil and go about your merry ways. nothing to worry about.
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UTC quote
pullmyfinger wrote:
no burn means you're solid good to go riding. the bad smell is your bike's unmentionables not being taken care of. likely scenario is you threw modern oil in the old girl and it dislodged some ancient sludge, thereby releasing nasty scents. flush the oil and go about your merry ways. nothing to worry about.
Pretty sure that oil has been in there a very long time, probably 15+ years? Previous owner only drove it 600 miles in all that time. I just got the scooter in February and only starting to figure it out this last month, but it seems like it's in decent shape, considering it had the wrong gaskets for the autolube for 15 years or longer.

Went on a little ride tonight, it was close to 90 degrees here today so it's a perfect day for it. Will keep an eye on the gearbox oil over the next little bit and hope I don't get a repeat of last night!
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Quote:
Will keep an eye on the gearbox oil over the next little bit and hope I don't get a repeat of last night!
If you're backing the fill plug out to check the oil level, it wouldn't hurt to also change the oil again, given how bad the stuff you just drained out was.
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Molto Verboso
2005 PX150 In a Part-time Relationship with a 2-Stroke Vespa Since 2007
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Molto Verboso
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Quote:
I tried this tonight, just to be sure. It died immediately when I blocked the carb.
Good sign!

Old oil will oxidize and smell like crap over time.
Change out the oil and check again after 500-1000 miles.
I'll bet you're fine.
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UTC quote
Aviator47 wrote:
Autolube is driven by a shaft that comes from the gearbox. Gear oil lubes it, and there is a return path for gear oil to circulate. When autolube is correctly operating, the 2T is isolated from the gear oil path. Otherwise, with bad gaskets, or other problems, it is quite possible for 2T to cross over into the gear oil system.
This makes complete sense. The gasket that was in there didn't go all the way over to the little gear that turns the oil pump in the air box. I bet it was leaking through there. I'll keep checking, but hopefully this problem is solved!
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