Modern Vespa

I am amazed how quickly some people are to drop , renounce their GB citizenship. It's amazing, no loyalty whatsoever. It's no wonder why they won't to belong to the EU opposed to being your own Indipendant country.

I said the morning after the vote that I've never been more ashamed to be British. Nothing since has changed that.

Sad times.

Didn't you folks have a civil war to stop some states from seceding and becoming independent??
Look at it as the United States of Europe and GB seceded.
Now try the United States of America and California trying to secede.

you're making the mistake of assuming that British values and the British sense of identity (particularly among the under-40s) are identical to American ones. 'Independence', to many British people, is perfectly compatible with being part of a larger political and economic union. And as I said before, a lot of younger people feel that their identity and their future as British members of the EU has been sold down the river by an older generation of voters. As one of my students said to me last week 'I've grown up feeling European, and all of a sudden I'm not any more, and I hate the people who took that away from me.'

As another example, without getting (directly) into other banned topics, there are certain 'freedoms' that Americans insist on and British don't - freedoms that we've never wanted, and without which our lives are a lot safer.

The UK population is around 20% of the USA population, and yet the UK is smaller than Oregon..

You work it out why nearly half that voted want to remain British and yet be part of a bigger UNION

Most of my friends are super pissed off with the result. Myself, I feel a sense of shame as I have to go about my daily business.

I think when some people see the end result of their decisions they will regret what they have done.

I may have already posted this but what the hell .

1 My blood ran cold when I saw the results on the TV that morning because I knew that the short sighted and bigoted voters had won.

The EU is in no way perfect but it's a whole lot better than the uncertainty that could ruin our country, just when we were getting back on top.

2 On a selfish level a third of the money that I had put by for my US vacation just disappeared within a week so thank you once again to the narrow minded types.

3 Arse.

Bill xxx

Personally I only know one person who voted to stay in.
I believe my parents and others had a vote in the 1970's to join a ''common market'' so way back then the wool was firmly pulled over their eyes. I don't think they voted for devolution of power to a faceless bunch of people in Brussels, people you cannot vote out of office if you dislike their policies. I find it very odd that some people feel it's acceptable to be dictated to by unelected cronies, cronies who cannot be ousted out by the democratic process.
I rather dislike being called a bigot or a racist, I am neither of those, for some reason the vote inners have decided that half of the UK's population is racist.

Are you aware that an ever increasing number of US citizens living abroad are renouncing their citizenship due to the shabby treatment they receive from the US government, particularly taxation laws passed starting in the early 1980s.

no, we haven't. and we apologise if that's the impression that's been given. I know a handful of people who voted to leave, and none of them are bigots or racists - they just have different views on how the country should be run.

there's no denying, however, that there are bigots and racists among the leave campaigners, and the press has had a field day 'outing' them - including this fine specimen of British tolerance and open-mindedness, who apparently lives in my local area

Very good point. It also proves that history and the rules are written by the victor. Prior to 1865 the principle of a non bloody secession was considered a tenant of the US Constitution. The state is Massachusetts put succession to a vote on, I believe, two seperate occasions, in the early years of the 19th century but voted to stay in the union. Had the Confederacy been successful the war between the states would not be known as the Civil War because there was no attempt to overthrow the Federal government. In the first 120 years of our country the federal government was considered an off spring or child of the Union of states, implimenting the collective will of the states. The tables were reversed during the Woodrow Wilson administration (1910's). When the federal government obtained the right to tax individuals directly through the income tax and elimination the appointing of Senators by the state legislatures.
Now Senators are elected at large. These seem like minor changes but it reversed the roles of the States and the Federal Government. For better or worse the Federal Government is now the parent of the States.

The irony of my decision is that, my great grandparents came to the UK from Poland and Germany, probably to escape persecution (they were Jewish)

The operative example would be Texas. A petition there has gained many thousands of supporters. A similar process has been initiated in several other Southern states. Texit actually has a nice ring to it, now that I think about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements

Great first half of points. Kids don't identify with being a Brit by itself they need to feel part of the EU. That's sad and a bit dangerous for your future as a sovereign and Indipendant country. They, the youth, will sell out all of what your predecessors have fought and died for just to be part of that union.
Second part of your points. We, Americans, have secured that right that we won't mention , because YOUR of country. Lol, no more of that now.

I bit different. You are a COUNTRY!! Not a state in Europe. Your right I'm not in your shoes I do not judge I am just looking to be educated.

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You do not have a monopoly on that across the pond. In today's world you can not disagree with anyone on principle, especially in politics, without it turning personal. The very best way to defraud a discussion is to cry racism and as you indicate the press loves dividing people. There is not a single news source that I trust as they are all colored by ideology, some more than others.

As Sgt. Friday*used to say, "Just the facts, lady, just the facts".


*1950's TV program "Dragnet"

Are you acquainted with The Map of Consciousness, as revealed and calibrated by Dr David R Hawkins? He also calibrated the level of consciousness of many countries, including the UK and EU. The UK calibrated much higher than the EU, so perhaps that contributed to Brexit...

The sovereignty argument was one of the major misunderstandings of the debate. It is quite possible to be within the EU and still retain our sovereignty. The No1 legislating authority in the UK is, and would remain, the British parliament, in or out of the EU.

People that claim to be ashamed of being British just because they lost a vote are quite frankly off their rockers.
I've stayed out of this because it's quite an emotive subject but I voted out and defy anyone to call me ignorant and uneducated just because I exercised my right.

I don't find that ironic at all. Your ancestors came to Britan for what ever reason and I would guess within a generation they assimilated into their adopted country. You probably still hold some Polish and/or German traditions but you have become British.

Maybe that is not strange to me because America for the most part is a nation of immigrants who come together to forge a life as Americans. I myself am no more than two generations from European emigrants but I am American first.

I'm fed up of being called a bigot too.
Surely those hat voted to remain are cornering the market in that particular attitude of late?

It's merely a reaction to the dissatisfaction with the direction the country is headed. Loyalty has nothing to do with it. If Piaggio started making bikes that polluted 30 times more than any other bike, many of us would stop buying their product. If you found out your best friend was a serial killer, you'd probably stop hanging around with him. Many people dislike the whole thinking behind exiting the EU (xenophobia, nationalism, racism) and they feel like this change doesn't make them want to live or be associated with it any longer.

We also need to remember, we aren't members of the Team USA or Team UK..or wherever. Nationalism is small minded. We all live on earth, we are all human and while these places are our homes, they are not who we are. I am proud to be from the USA and even have a flag hanging in front of my home. However, if the USA had a severe change in values, I would consider leaving without question. I honor and respect people who choose to leave their homes (not an easy thing to do) when their homes no longer feel like a good place to be. I have been fortunate to live in Europe and Asia and as an Expat, and in those countries I have been proud to call myself American. If that should ever change, I will definitely consider moving.

hmm. you seem to be doing rather a lot of judging, actually. so far you've accused remain campaigners of being disloyal, of selling our identities, and of throwing away all the 'sacrifices that our forefathers did'. For what it's worth, our forefathers didn't die for some tubthumping notion of 'independence' (from who???) - they fought and died for a lasting peace in Europe. Part of the reason the EU was created was to act as a guarantor of that peace. That at least, seems to have worked. why is it sad and dangerous to have a sense of identity that isn't single-track, and that doesn't stop at the borders of one's 'native' country? Some Canadians identify as anglophone, others as francophone, but we're still all Canadians - is that sad and dangerous?

Oh and by the way, I wasn't suggesting that those who voted for Brexit were Xenophobes, racists or nationalists. People may have voted for any number of reasons. I watched a ton of interviews and to the point, many people who voted to exit never felt like the EU was benefiting them much. I know that the organizations that promoted Brexit (UKIP) did capitalize on the negative sentiments but many people who voted to exit felt like the UK has never really been a "full" EU country in the first place. You still needed a passport to enter the UK and still used the Pound. When I lived in France, it drove me crazy every time I wanted to go over and see a West Ham match. I could drive to ANY other country with my French ID card but not to the UK.

^^^this

I find it very curious that you lump those three together.

I have not issue with having a national identity. I am not one of those "my country right or wrong" types but I believe without a national identity and culture you are just a refugee.

'nationalism' has a specific and quite unpleasant set of connotations around it at the moment, both here and elsewhere in Europe. while the meaning of the term is simply one who advocates political independence, over the past decade or so that advocacy has increasingly come to be linked to the rise of violent and narrow-minded right-wing ideologies. hence the frequent association of the term with xenophobia and racism.

it is still possible to be a nationalist without those qualities, however

My honest experience

Brexiters = (a combination of) old, young, rich, poor, upper class, middle class, working class, educated, uneducated, tory, labour, liberal, straight, gay, Bi, bigoted, north, east, south, west, racist

Bremainers = (a combination of) old, young, rich, poor, upper class, middle class, working class, educated, uneducated, tory, labour, liberal, straight, gay, Bi, bigoted, north, east, south, west

Oh I don't know - nationalism is proud in small countries, dangerous in large ones.

As a political philosophy it is reductionist and ultimately limited. You end up wearing costumes and chanting in large crowds if really goes wrong, burning books and people eventually to look at history. Nationalism can carry all sorts of unpleasant ideas along with it when it becomes the prism of how you view the world. Innately, the rest of world is flawed because they weren't born on your collection of rocks.

I'm learning a lot here. I am not trying to be judgmental but I do have my opinions.
Judgmental or opinion my last thought. When a generation chooses to leave a country because they rather be part of an outside entity, in my opinion, that's dangerous and puts that country on a very slippery slope. Not to be dramatic but where does that persons loyalty lie? In times of need or war what side does that person choose? Forgive me but I'm a Soldier and I am in the business of loyalty and service so I always take it to the extreme but it's a question worth asking. Where do your loyalties lie?

Again, forgive me but this a very interesting subject and both sides are stating some good points.

Out of interest, what did you want to happen as a result of your vote, and what do you think will actually happen?

That was sort of my point. I am not really lumping together as much as I believe they were the reasons people pushed for Brexit. Obviously, many people are proud of their national heritage and felt a stronger Britain was one which remained independent of Europe. I imagine there were nationalists who felt a stronger Britain was one with the EU. However, you cannot argue that aligning and remaining a European state does diminish the UKs role as a single national entity. Most of the complaints I read from the Brexit camp were Euro regulations, Euro expense, etc. The whole point of being a member state of the EU is to act as a single economy internationally, thus buying/trading with the collective power of 28 (er...27) countries. Good or bad, Leaving behind the EU signified a single nationalistic movement by declaring independence from European rules.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2016/06/29/brexit-will-put-the-u-s-back-atop-the-world-gdp-rankings/

I also feel like the parties in the UK touting nationalism did bundle xenophobia and racism in hand. I apologize if that offended.

By the way, we had a wonderful video here from John Cena to address EXACTLY your sentiment.

https://www.facebook.com/LoveHasNoL/videos/1691835861068286/

With humanity I guess.

Older men declare war. But it is the youth that must fight and die.
Herbert Hoover

A patriot loves his country, a nationalist hates everyone else's.

So the only difference is the Brexiters are racist?

here's an analogy: I see from your avatar that you live in North Carolina. So you're a 'north carolinian', or something, right? you're not a texan, or a new yorker, or a californian. (or maybe you are - I don't know where you grew up - but you get my point).

but you're still an American too. So for me to ask you where your loyalties lie - with your state or with your country - wouldn't make sense, because those two parts of your identity are linked together in the same way that each individual state is part of the country. the United States of America isn't an 'outside entity', it's the matrix that draws the individual states together.

the situation is similar for British citizens in the EU. yes, we're still British - we're not French or Italian or Romanian etc. - but at the same time we are part of this larger unit that encompasses us all and binds us all together. it's no more an 'outside entity' than America is 'outside' to North Carolina. And in times of need, the idea is that the EU member states, rather than taking sides, or running off to their own corners, would pull together as a unit. So the question of where our loyalties lie is as difficult for many of us as it is for you.

Not!

Why is it that so many have to resort to name calling and assaults on character?

A, lower case "n", nationalist supports and defends the right of a people to be a sovereign nation. Hating other countries is only your interpretation.

Great analogy Genie.

I do think our histories are a bit different. BUT, the reality is that we had a very close situation to this in both 1770 and 1861 economically. In these conflicts, there were clear and vital financial reasons to remain/leave with the crown/union. In both cases, we ended up having to go to war with the UK/ourselves to solve the issue. Most Americans forget that our history isn't as romantic or pretty as it has been painted.

In 1770, our leaders were looking for financial independence from the UK, good or bad, it worked out okay. Independence wasn't about freedom in as much as it was about money staying in the colonies. Our great distance (especially for the time) and the fact that the French were taking over Europe made it easier for us to Brexit. Less than 100 years later, the southern states tried to secede for mostly economic reasons. Their economy depended on slavery.

Read this and see some interesting historical correlation:

Humanity?? Really, then why join the EU? H Hoover was once young so he too had to pay the price. The youth....

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Again, GB is a country the EU shouldn't be considered the source of your central power. Texas, Texas on the other hand has their own history of independence, lol.