Modern Vespa

Hi
Our teammate Gonzo has had some problems with the p200 motor on the cannonball. He was riding in 4th gear and suddenly no power engine running but won't go. When he kicks over the motor the engine won't turn. Tried to push start won't engage. Long story short we have been group texting and calling and we can't figure out what happened. He disassembled the motor yesterday internals look fine but still won't kick over. The piston doesn't move when kicked. He can spin the flywheel and that turns the piston. Flywheel and clutch woodruff keys both are fine and intact. Visually inspected clutch( not disassembled ) passed it around to the vintage cannonball riders and everyone said it looks good. Also the crankcase oil is very dark every day he is changing it.
Any suggestions on what is causing this problem?
He is in the rv for the second day and is going nutty trying to figure this out.

If the piston doesn't move with the kickstart, but moves when you spin the flywheel by hand, sounds like something's up with the cush drive.

Thanks for the reply. Is there any way to test that? My guys say they rebuilt the Cush drive with new parts when they upgraded the gears a few weeks before the cannonball. Still could have failed tho

When he turns the flywheel and the piston moves, does the clutch side of the crank move also?

ill ask him. He's riding on the rv and they are getting spotty cell service

Gonzo texted me when the flywheel is spun the clutch shaft spins.Rotating flywheel by hand sends piston up and down and spins clutch. Kicking the kickstart the flywheel begins to spin but doesn't. And the piston doesn't move

id disassemble the clutch maybe the cork plates are fubard

I put this motor together. We have all been trying to put crew this via text message and FaceTime from home while Gonzo has been on the ride. This is definitely one of the most baffling problems we've come up against.

The motor is a 79 P200, completely rebuilt with all new bearings, and EFL transmission, new crank, etc. the Cush drive was rebuilt using a mallossi kit with a shorter primary, stiffer springs, and a taller clutch drive gear. The clutch is a brand new cosa2 with the malossi drive gear, an SIP 16 rivet basket with 10 springs.

He pulled the clutch out the other day while we were on FaceTime and it looked fine, he also passed around to other vintage riders on the cannonball I may agree to also look fine however it was never opened up.

Every single thing we have thought of and tried has come back fine. No sheared keys, no internal damage, etc. on the second day Gonzo change the case oil and said that it was black and smelled burnt, I thought maybe the clutch plates could be frozen together, although I'm not sure I understand how that would create the issue he's having.

Check out:

https://m.facebook.com/NOLAScootCoop

For a play by play of the last few days of his cannonball adventure.

Thanks for the reply. I'm thinking the same thing the cork is shot

does it have a standard or a Cosa clutch?

Cosa

Nevermind...I just saw that it's a cosa. Maybe the rivets sheared off of the clutch bell?

Nope, they are fine. It's the sip 16 rivet basket

Well it might help to think that there is an interruption in motion between the crank and the wheel. The kick start could be dragging your attention away from the real matter at hand, since the bump start also failed.

Since turning the flywheel turns the clutch basket, your motion loss is either at the plates or closer again to the wheel. Is the cruciform actually selecting gears? If the loss isn't at the plates, then the Christmas tree is turning and the loose gears must also be turning, but the power isn't transferred to the axle, right?

Cruciform is fine. It was checked out when he cracked the case. He did say that he could loosen it from the shift rod by hand. He tightened it up and put everything back together.

He should be getting to the hotel soon and the clutch will be the first thing he checks. He has access to another clutch as well so I advised him to swap them and see what happens.

I'm just throwing out another possibility here... Sometimes those fancy clutches are a bit taller and require about a 1/8" clutch cover spacer (SIP or DRT makes them). If there's not enough room in there, it can push the clutch actuating arm against the clutch bell, causing the clutch to slip.

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/spacer+clutch+cover+for+vespa+_17640000

I thought this too. I told him to pull the cover off and kick it to see if it still happens. The weird thing is that it ran fine for the test and break in period as well as a few days on the cannonball when he wasn't seizing up or otherwise breaking down for some other dumb reason. He is also running this fancy little guy.

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/main/base/Details.aspx?ProductNumber=50040000&_language=en

If it freewheels when he kicks it, then either the plates are slipping, sheared the key or the little kickstart gear broke. Kickstart action wouldn't go through the cruciform. I read that he can't bump start it leading me to think clutch is slipping, so more easily fixable. If the kickstart gear broke he shouldn't try to run the motor. When he pulls the cover & kicks it he should able to see if the christmas tree spins or not. If it does & flywheel doesn't turn, it's the clutch slipping or a sheared key. Or stripped primary gears, but that's unlikely & would be rather noisy I think.

Good luck, I'll be waiting for them in or before Mukilteo.

I'm leaning towards a clutch with burned up cork plates. The clutch key was ok. The kickstart internals were ok when he split the cases.
Hopefully he will get a chance to straighten t out tonight when the rv makes it to the hotel.
Thanks everyone for the help much appreciated.
We will continue to try and get this fixed today so he can ride again.

good luck hope you get it sorted

The spring for the little kickstart gear slipped out of place or is broken, or missing?

I had an issue where the main drive plate (the one with the gear) was buckled. Only 1 in about 20 kicks would start it. Worth a like when you get the clutch apart.

What about trying a spare clutch? Might be the quickest test method if you have one.

Gonzo found that by removing the clutch cover it would kick over. Removed the sip pressure plate with the bearing in it http://www.sip-scootershop.com/main/base/Details.aspx?ProductNumber=50040000&_language=en
And installed a stock pressure plate and spring clip. The Cosa 2 clutch is a little thicker and when first started the rivets were just slightly rubbing the arm in the clutch cover. Let it run for a bit and it quieted down , changed the oil and looks like he's good to go for today. Just changing the gear cables this morning and will be rolling out.
It looks like that thicker clutch does need the special spacer, not sure why it worked for all this time over the first few days and started having problems.
Thanks for everyone's input we really appreciated the help.
Today's ride looks like a great one!

When the corks start to wear the slack in the cable goes away really fast making the slip even worse. I suspect the rubbing on the case is also an indication of wear as the basket is now sitting higher than before.

If he has them, change the corks now as it will not get better.

I don't think he has a set of corks. He can't swap clutches either since nobody else has a cosa 2 and he's running a straight cut malossi primary gear.

Thanks for the reply Patrick
We will just have to keep our fingers crossed that he can make it

I might have one of those spacers on my shelf...

at least keep an eye on the slack in the cable and make sure to have a bit more than normal.

What's the difference between the cosa 1 and 2 clutch? They use the same plates right?

You can also grind down the clutch arm shaft a bit for more clearance. I was having the same problem with my T5. I used a flapper wheel on a angle grinder to remove about a 1/8" of material. In the end I still had to use a spacer as well though..

Just talked to Gonzo. He got the thing running by removing the bearing thrust pusher and went back to the original. Was still slipping a bit. Pulled over to loosen the clutch cable a bit. It worked, and he said the scooter was pulling well, a little too well apparently. He hit some gravel dust in a slow turn and lost the rear end. Went down and broke his clutch lever:/

Poor guy cant catch a break... Or can he. Either way, sucks. He's at a power sports dealer finding something to fix it. We are going to overnight some fresh cork plates, lever, and other bits.

i did find a clutch cover spacer on my shelf of spares...

I had a dream last night that he snapped the crank, luckily it turned out to just be the clutch

i did find a clutch cover spacer on my shelf of spares...[/quote]


I just sent a pm to you we want that spacer shipped out today nda
My contact info is in the pm
Thanks Chas

i did find a clutch cover spacer on my shelf of spares...[/quote]

Will he need longer bolts to pass through the spacer?


He is currently riding by the way!

http://followride.com/rider/58

Nope, the normal bolts will work just fine. Spacer should be ~1mm thick

He made it past check point 3!

oh, one more tip for limping a slipping clutch to the finish.

Power is what you need at the rear wheel to make you go, but torque is what makes the clutch slip.

Power = torque * RPM

So if the clutch is wanting to slip you can get the RPMs up and keep them there to get enough power to the rear wheel but keep the torque down at the clutch.

I'll pass the info along! We sent him another overnight care package, a spare cosa 2 from my P200, a set of oiled corks, a new clutch lever, and a bunch of other stuff. Plus a big thanks to whodatschrome for sending him the clutch cover spacer! Fingers crossed his current clutch holds out one more day.

I only had a situation in which my P200E engine wouldn't turn. One time I over tightened one of the 4 rods in which the cylinder and cylinder head slides in and it was touching the oil gearing mechanism in a way that it was preventing the piston/crankshaft to move, it was virtually "lock".

Your situation is different because you were rolling in 4th gear already. My incident was a freak accident.