Modern Vespa

Hello Gang,

I have a friend who purchased a 2016 MP3/500 Sport a few months after I purchased mine (Was part of the same group of bikes delivered to our dealer.). He has experienced some disturbing observations with Oil Loss which I will explain, so hear me out as you read this post.

I know we have talked about this on different posts here on MV, some of the folks here have made modifications to their bikes, so I thought I would start a new one so I hope you guys don't mind.

I hope we can stay on topic here, and maybe get some good conversation on just how much oil should we put in our bikes?
Please don't post information about your Mods you did to your bike, please stay on the topic of how much oil you put in your bike, and what you are seeing in your air filter. All Master Engine Bikes please post comments.

If you bring your bike to a Piaggio / Vespa Dealer, it makes sense they will put the 1700cc that is documented in the Manual, to probably insure they being a representative of Piaggio Warranty, they did what they are supposed to do.
But we all know, a large amount of this Oil will blow to the Air Filter and what shows on the Dip Stick as Full, will show Low.

When I change my Oil, I use less.
Here is my observations on why I do what I do.

1. When my bike landed at the dealer over a year ago, I purchased the first 2016 MP3/500 ABS in Atlanta. The first thing I did, was check the oil on the bikes while they still had plastic on them to see just how much oil Piaggio put in them. They were just taken out the Crate, had no windshields on them, or even batteries installed. They all showed Low...
That's right, they did not put the recommended amount of oil at the factory, and I checked 3 of the 5 bikes delivered to my dealer.

2. After the first 100 Miles, and this was recommended by OAD who I value his knowledge, I changed my Oil. I checked for Metal Shavings, and anything obvious and the Oil was Clean, and no oil in the Air Filter. I was doing a normal break in on the bike.

3. When I replaced the Oil with Shell T-6, I put in the recommended amount in the Manual and a new malossi oil filter, 1700cc and started riding low/high speeds on the Interstate for the next 250 miles. After the first 100 miles, I saw oil in the "Bubble".
Ok, time to lower the oil, the manual has to be wrong?

4. On my next Oil Change at 350 Miles, I put 1200cc which showed very low on the Dip Stick. No Oil Blow..

5. On my next Oil Change at 650 Miles, I put in 1300cc, which showed low on the Dip Stick. No Oil Blow...

6. On my next Oil Change at 1000 Miles, I put 1400cc, which showed (see picture). Minimal visible Oil Blow and not enough to go to the bubble, I felt this is the "sweet spot" to have a balance of Oil, and reduced Oil Blow. This is what I do now, and have about 5K miles on my bike now. Whenever I check my oil, it is consistent on the Dip Stick.

So here is my question to the Group...

1. Should we put the 1700cc in the bike as recommended by Piaggio, and continue to clean the Air Filter and Add Oil?

2. Should we reduce the Oil as I have done?


Now let me talk about my Friend's MP3/500.
We spent some time chatting about his problem, and observations we both shared. Now his bike after an Oil Change by the Dealer, in less than a month, and a few 1000 miles, his oil went to hardly showing on the Dip Stick. He drained oil out of the Air Filter, but my impression it was not enough to say, it was just Oil Blow, maybe the engine is burning the oil? He is going to do some more testing as I suggested to see if he has an Engine Problem. But he feels he has a 2 stroke bike now, and has to carry oil with him all the time.

So what you guys think?
Post a Picture of your "Happy Spot" of your Dip Stick.

Keith,
Marietta, GA

Hi keith,

Since replacing my cylinder and piston at only 3000 miles (thanks warranty..), I closely monitor my oil level, like you I am used to put a little less (1600cc)

I find it interesting how Piaggio changed the Dip Stick.
Your has better markings on it compared to mine.
I have a Low mark, but no high mark.
Trying to make a joke? Maybe they don't know where Full is Anymore?

Keith
Marietta, GA

I do not measure how much I put.
I go the extra steps to fully empty the old oil with the finger in the hole, scooter lean ect... at the en d I may have to put a little bit more than you.
When I fill it, I fill it up to the max...start the engine to let the pump oil filter ect run with some oil... and then add more just to be between Min and Max.

I have never seen any oil in the bubble.

Now I'm very gentle on the throttle...may be this it the reason...

Understand...
I guess its how you define Gentle?

The Oil Blow from what I have seen is a period of time on the Interstate Highway, and not sure how fast you have to go to get it to Blow Oil?

I do know riding on divided highway's say 45mph and under, it does not happen to me. You get on the Interstate, your going to get some in the Air Filter if you have to much oil in it. If you have a phone with a camera, please post a picture of your dipstick that would represent your normal oil levels.
Do you ever have to add any oil, or do you remain at a stable level.

Thanks for input,
Keith

I owned a 250cc for 7 years ( 24,000 miles) and never had to add oil.
I have only 1100 miles on my new 500cc. I have to admit I have never taken Darwin II on the high way here. Max speed so far, only 70 mph on a short distance. It might explains the lack of oil in the filter.
I'll take a picture

Bump...
Please post your "Happy Spot" on your Dip Stick...

I agree that the oil shouldn't be filled to more than just above the minimum mark on the dipstick.

When going pretty fast (highway speed 80-90mph) there´s definetly a lot more oil blow by when the oil is is filled to just under the maximum mark.

I´ve added a couple of arrows to frcx94's picture to show what I mean.
I have very little oil in the air filter when filling up to the black arrow, so that´s where I want to keep it, but after an oil change I filled it up to the red arrow and after that I had oil in the air filter "bubble" for the first time.

(Sorry for "stealing" your pic frcx94

I top my up and never have a problem. I don't do any WOT for more than it takes to get up to the speed I want to ride at, never go down the highway WOT for any distance.

I stopped topping off my oil and magically drastically reduced my oil consumption. When I first bought my MP3, I was needing to add oil to top it off every two weeks. I do ride at 70mph plus on I-70 regularly. Now with keeping the level at the pictures shown in previous posts, I seldom need to add oil.

Since my last oil change of 1400cc on 04/02, Dip Stick pictures are stable. I have seen very little "Oil Blow" to Air Filter (I only keep a few screws in it for easy verification.). I am taking pictures of my Dip Stick every week now since my friends problem started to see if I see any sudden changes. Wish it was not Black... Grrrrr...

Thanks for keeping this post on this topic...
I would like to share, there is a very good conversation going on with this thread here on MV about the Engine.

Mp3 500 2015 business oil lose / eatong oil
Go check this out if you had not.

I wish more Master Engine Bike Owners would post a picture of their "Sweet Spot" of their Dip Stick where the level they are sharing is where their oil stays consistently.

It is very possible that is not possible, maybe the way this engine is designed it will always show a reduction over time. My friend who has a Black Sport has good observation, "I don't want to carry Oil with me like a 2-Stroke." My joke to him was... Well we can always stop at a WalMart and pickup a Quart of Shell T-6 vs carrying it.

Thanks,
Keith
Marietta, GA

[/b]

I posted this also in the MP3 500 2015 business oil loss below. I am the friend Keith is referring to and I am going to try some of his ideas while a wait for a response from the rep.

"This is starting to bother me. As I told Keith and my local dealer here in Georgia I feel like I am driving a 2 stroke.

I have had two Vespas a 200 and a 250 and never had to add oil between oil changes and would do 3 day weekend rides upwards to 800 miles + and highway to boot!

This past February I bought a brand new 2016 MP3 500 with only 3 miles on it and did the proper break-in. Once I hit the 600 mile mark I had the dealer do the first oil change which was around the end of April I believe.

On the 10th of June my bike had over a 1200 miles and my wife and I went on a 3 day trip to NC and did about 700 miles mostly back roads and some motorway coming back with speeds from 60 to 73mph. Before I left for our trip I fueled up and checked my oil. I was between high and low. When we got back on Sunday evening I did not check my oil till the following morning and was shocked to see nothing registering on my dip stick. It took about an ounce get back just above the min mark.

Not knowing of the issues with this motor and going back and forth to work for the rest of June the oil stayed in the middle where I filled it. 5th of July my son and I went on a 367 mile trip in the GA mountains and came home via highway the next morning I was down to the min mark on the dip stick and also for the 1st time noticed the oil bulb full of oil and got almost 56ml once I drained the air filter.

I have informed my dealer and am waiting for a response from the rep and also learned a lot from Keith and will try some of his ideas to see where my sweet spot is, if I have one.

I really hope I don't have a major issue and I really do not like the idea it seems anytime I go on a long trip to bring plenty of oil."

I tried that on mine with mixed results. Sometimes it resulted in less blowby sometimes no difference. The differing results appear to be related to riding conditions. Around town with short super slab - not as much oil blow. Mainly high speed 70+ - plenty of oil blowing.

Update:

Keith and I went on a 400 mile round trip day ride from Atlanta to the Cherohala Skyway to Robbinsville, NC Tail of the Dragon and back home with our MP3 500s Labor Day Weekend. When we left my house our oil was just barely over the min mark on both dipsticks and no oil in the oil bulbs or filter box.

We drove together the whole time doing the same speeds, highway, back roads going and coming home.

When I got back home my oil bulb was full and and no oil registering on the dipstick, it took 238 ml of fresh oil just to get it to register back to the min mark.

I drained right at 59 ml of oil out of the filter box and front and back oil bulbs, my concerns is where did the other 177 ml go?

I have notified my dealer last Tuesday due to being closed Monday for holiday and they have contacted the Piaggio Rep Still waiting on a response from the rep hopefully will know something tomorrow.

I am also in the process of looking at other alternatives evening going to a motorcycle. The bike is great and great power for what I do, but the reliability i'm starting to question on a engine with just 3,500 miles on the clock. I broke in in right and even pampered it for another 1000 miles.

I have had two Vespas a 200cc and the 250cc and once the motors were broken in I used to WOT out of state all the time due to riding with big bikes and I never had oil issues like this.

Just feeling a little down right now.......

Yea this was a Fun Trip, see picture I am in the Rear.
My oil level on the Dip Stick was in the same spot as when I left (1400cc just a hair above the Min Mark). I also opened my Air Box, and it was clean except I picked up some bugs in the Air Filter from the Trip.

I sure hope Piaggio does something about this issue...

I changed my Oil later, and went with 1500cc this time to see if I see any Oil Blow. Trying to find the "Sweet Spot".

Keith,
Marietta, GA

Between 1500cc and 1600cc seems to be a good compromise for me...

What I think is that you're working on the presumption that the full mark is excessive and exacerbating oil consumption.

I do not think this is correct for a simple reason: if the level had *anything* to do with excessive consumption then it would stop when it reached the "correct" level.

To my knowledge nobody has stated that the level stabilizes at any given position on the dipstick. Instead we read about somebody filling halfway and that "seems to work".

I would submit that the engine sump isn't a pump and dump where you fill it too far it dumps all your oil. My guess is that the rings rotate and cause periodic "episodes". It's human nature to try and associate an effect to a cause - the results can sometimes be filed under "superstitious behavior".


Rotating rings can be caused by an incorrect or too deep hatch pattern in the cylinder or variations in the ring lands.

Well? Let me try and explain my Logic, and so far its working for me.
See my pictures for documentation so far using 1400cc.

If you fill the Oil to the Full Mark on the MP3/500 Sport ABS.
It will blow out the overage if you ride on the Interstate Highway's doing Max Speed. We have proven this on multiple Bikes here in Atlanta.

Its difficult to Calculate the right amount "Sweet Spot" is, with all the variables with soaking in the Air Filter, Splatter in the Air Box, etc...

So what I have been doing is the opposite approach, and trying to find the exact amount of Oil to use (Based on my Riding/Speed) where I don't have to spend all my time cleaning out the Oil in my Air Box.
I have proved that 1400cc does not blow... I just did a ride of 400+ Miles on Labor Day with my Friend in the picture above, and I had "No Oil Blow".
So now, I am pushing it up by 100cc. Our Friend Frcx94 is using the same method, and it looks like his sweet spot is around 1600cc.

I do know, if you put in the recommended Oil Levels in the Manual recommended by Piaggio and fill it to the Full Mark, you will have Oil in your Air Box, "if you ride the Interstate". You put-put around the City, it won't blow probably.

I am convinced, this high compression engine of 500cc, a modified 400cc Master Engine, has this issue. They may have put the PVC type device in the bike to offset the compression, but I want to know what my "Sweet Spot" is. I change my oil on my GTS/300, my MP3/250, and I don't even think about it. The oil always stays the same. I check it before I go on a ride, and it's rare I have to add oil. I used the MP3/250 and went to Amerivespa with a group of Friends, we did Interstate most of the way. When I got home, my Oil was in the same spot.

This bike has an issue, and I am learning to "Manage it" the best way I can. Comments always welcomed... No one person rides the same.

Thanks,
Keith
Marietta, GA

consumption is where your off some. the engine is not consuming any.

is the full mark excessive? I say yes it is because when the level is at that mark you do get a lot of excess oil in the airbag.

lots of folks me included HAVE Stabilized the amount of oil loss into the airbag assy. by ONLY filling to the half way mark on the dipstick.

rings on the piston do not rotate once they have been bedded in. this takes anywhere from 5 miles to 50 miles for them to bed in when new.
this is evident when inspecting the top end and you can match the ring lines to the cylinder lines.

Unfortunately, from my Buddy "VespaGT250" (Black ABS/500)
He's blowing his, and its disappearing somewhere as well.
See his post above, he's very frustrated...

His Dip Stick did not register any Oil when we returned from our long Ride.
The amount of Oil in the Air Box, did not equal the amount to get back to Min Dip Stick Level where we started.

Mine was fine...

We both started with similar levels on our Dip Sticks.

The method may seem to empirical for great technician.

But allows, without damage to the mechanics, not to fill the projection in the air box

Of course it's necessary to verify that the level remains sufficient and without excessive variation !!

and he should have his at the dealer since its under warranty to have them figure it out and correct it.

Exactly what he's doing OAD.
Dealer has phoned the Piaggio Rep that is here in Atlanta, and no Response.
He's been waiting since the Tuesday after Labor day for an answer to what the next steps will be.

Put yourself in his shoes...
Bike has about 4K miles on it.
Would you want a Repaired by Dealer under Warranty Engine, Replacement Engine, New Bike... Not sure what I would do myself?

Keith

That's not what I was saying. If it's true that "overfilling" is the source of excessive oil - then it should stop at the level which is the real "max fill point".
Seems simple enough.

That is what I am saying...
I am trying to identify the "Sweet Spot" !
1400cc works, now going up to 1500cc and monitoring Air Box for any Blow.

Keith

Update:

I have been asked by my dealer to bring in the bike this Saturday and they are going to run some tests and report the findings back to the regional Piaggio techs, crossing my fingers it's something simple!

Again I love this bike and hope whatever it is is a simple fix. I have been out looking at Indians and Harleys due to after this being my first maxi scooter I can never go back to a smaller Vespa. Motorcycles for me are not the same in storage and conveniences that the MP3 provides and I do not like the Burgmans or the BMW scoots.

But as Keith stated its just frustrating that this is happening with under 4K miles. I do understand $h^t happens and I am blaming anyone but I do want something reliable for many years to come especially coming from the very reliable Piaggio 200 and 250 engines.... at least they were for me.

I'll post again soon when I find out what it is.

Thanks for letting me vent!

Hi all

It's been a while since a group of MP3/Fuoco owners here in France has deeply analysed the oil blowing and cracked piston issue.
To share with you the results of our research, here are the main conclusions that we've made:

1 - Massive oil blow almost always is a consequence of a cracked piston. Rarely are the rings concerned, it's normally the wall between ring grooves that pops partially. It's uncommon that the cylinder wall is damaged. That leads to a logic deduction that it is a piston overheat and dilatation problem, cylinder is not to blame.

2 - The piston is cooled via oil jet coming from the crankshaft axle. It's useless to say that the performance of the piston's cooling is directly proportional to the oil circuit pressure. Well, making some measurements, we've identified that this pression is often under the minimum required of 1,5bar when the oil is hot (>80°C). The consequence is an overheated piston, that will cause blowbacks and at extreme conditions will crack.

3 - We've came up to several hypothesis: oil is overheating due to the lack of an oil radiator (all GT scooters are equipped with oil heat exchangers, like Yamaha T-Max or BMW C650 for example) and/or recommended oil viscosity is wrong. 5W40 leads to a too fluid oil at high temperature, which decreases the oil circuit pressure. We've obtained 0,5 bar on a heated engine.

After considering all these matters, we've started to try several modifications. The simplest to apply is changing the oil grade to 10W60 (or 15W50 in my precise case, with the esther based Motul 300V). Just by doing that, you'll already hear a smoother engine. Not joking...
Also, for those who have the 493CC engine and cracked a piston, we've replaced the "shitty" die-casted OEM piston by a forged CNC machined one, able to endure harder conditions without cracking like glass. This is fitted with a custom bored cylinder with nicasil treatment. This allows the engine to better endure the overheating periods.

For the forged piston: http://www.protoxide.eu/fr/pistons-pour-motos/1040-piston-nexus-beverly-500cc-94mm.html

For the ceramic cylinder treatment: http://www.poetonaptec.co.uk/apticote.htm (there are several suppliers for that, just google for it)


These are only assumptions and results of our personal cases. I don't want to put all this as unconditional truth. We're still running our tests, but after having 5 cracked pistons among 8 scooters, we've felt like going deeper to understand this critical issue. I'm sure that Piaggio knows perfectly the endemic problem that its engines faces, but it's cheaper for them to apply warranty policies than doing a recall or whatever other solution.

Ride safe!

Regards from Paris
8)

canonballrt,

Thanks for taking the time and posting your groups issues with this engine. I do hope mine is not bad but hopefully will find out soon after tomorrow.

Sean

I'm skeptical on this point. If you 'overfill' once, you then get some blockage of the air filter by the oil, which causes some additional vacuum in the downstream system. So the issue becomes self-propagating in the sense that, while the oil is no longer 'high', the air filter's characteristics have changed. So to fix it, it is not sufficient to allow the oil to remain 'low enough', you also have to clean the air filter AND have a 'low enough' condition at the same time. This has been my experience anyway.

This makes some sense to me. 15W50 is the recommended oil for the BV350 after all.

We appreciate your comments !
I do have a question, and I am thinking from my experience with cars from my former Corvette days... Rather then change the oil weight, wouldn't changing the thermostat accomplish the same thing to run cooler? Maybe they are not available.

Keith,
Marietta, GA

Hi Keith,

Main problem of piston's cooling is not that much the temperature of the oil (even if lowering it is for sure always welcome!) but more the oil circuit's pressure.
As the piston is cooled by oil jet blowing from underneath, when the pressure drops under 1,5bar (this is the minimum pressure Piaggio recommends - higher is 4,5 bar) piston's cooling becomes insufficient or inexistent in the worst cases. Oil fluidity directly impacts oil system's pressure, here is what Motul writes about its 300V 15W50 on their website:

" The SAE 15W-50 viscosity enables to compensate high engine oil dilution by unburned fuel and maintains a stable oil pressure."

In our observations, the 5W40 oil running at high outside temperatures can cause system's pressure to drop under 1,5bar, jeopardizing the piston.
As already told, this is the most logical lead we've found when analysing deeper the cracked piston, there might be others.

Cheers!

Thanks...
It looks like I may give this a try on my next Oil Change.

Best Price I have been able to find, also cheaper then Amazon.com
http://www.ebay.com/itm/391348795626?
I will continue to use Shell T-6 on the MP3/250 and GTS/300.


Keith,
Marietta, GA

Well depending on what my local shop reports back I will give this a try and take the bike on a good 70+ motorway ride to the state border and back and see what happens.

I dropped the bike off this past Saturday and they are doing some test that the Piaggio tech reps want done such as cold compression test, hot compression test and I believe one more.

So depending on what they find will determine if I keep this bike or not. I am really hoping it is very minor cause I do love this bike and will give the 15w50 a shot, but if they have to tear apart a brand new motor warranty or not, I'm not having it on a bike with less than 4k miles it's gone and off to something else.

Again, thank you for all this great info!!

Sean

Keep us informed...
I just noticed someone has a Brand New Sport on Ebay.
This is the second one I have seen so far, a Black one, now a Gray one.
Possibly another bike purchased for a Wife/Girl Friend, and they did not like it...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Other-Makes-MP3-500-Sport-ABS-/282182696268?

Will do Keith, yup maybe my wife won't like it either....... Will see?

Sean

Outstanding work! Glad to hear someone else thinks the pistons are shitty. They are bad castings plain and simple. Interesting idea on the oil pressure drop - I would have assumed the pistons were lubricated from splash.
Problem here is the dealers are waffling on warranty repairs refusing to acknowledge there's a problem or that it's covered.

BTW - simple test I devised. Put a pressure gauge on the breather outlet pipe. Should read around 10 psi or less even at higher rpms. If the pressure keeps climbing then you have a piston problem.

Can your provide a link to this Pressure Gauge so I can get one.
Great idea to monitor every now and then.

Keith,
Marietta, GA

Thanks BubbaJon for the info!! If I get a report it's the piston it's gone! I've read and know many of you are aware..... to many horror stories even after a rebuild.

Sean