@bubbajon avatar
UTC

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RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
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@bubbajon avatar
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
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Posts: 5288
Location: Austin, TX
UTC quote
klaborde wrote:
BubbaJon wrote:
VespaGT250 wrote:
Quote:
Hi Keith,

Main problem of piston's cooling is not that much the temperature of the oil (even if lowering it is for sure always welcome!) but more the oil circuit's pressure.
As the piston is cooled by oil jet blowing from underneath, when the pressure drops under 1,5bar (this is the minimum pressure Piaggio recommends - higher is 4,5 bar) piston's cooling becomes insufficient or inexistent in the worst cases. Oil fluidity directly impacts oil system's pressure, here is what Motul writes about its 300V 15W50 on their website:

" The SAE 15W-50 viscosity enables to compensate high engine oil dilution by unburned fuel and maintains a stable oil pressure."

In our observations, the 5W40 oil running at high outside temperatures can cause system's pressure to drop under 1,5bar, jeopardizing the piston.
As already told, this is the most logical lead we've found when analysing deeper the cracked piston, there might be others.

Cheers!
Well depending on what my local shop reports back I will give this a try and take the bike on a good 70+ motorway ride to the state border and back and see what happens.

I dropped the bike off this past Saturday and they are doing some test that the Piaggio tech reps want done such as cold compression test, hot compression test and I believe one more.

So depending on what they find will determine if I keep this bike or not. I am really hoping it is very minor cause I do love this bike and will give the 15w50 a shot, but if they have to tear apart a brand new motor warranty or not, I'm not having it on a bike with less than 4k miles it's gone and off to something else.

Again, thank you for all this great info!!

Sean
BTW - simple test I devised. Put a pressure gauge on the breather outlet pipe. Should read around 10 psi or less even at higher rpms. If the pressure keeps climbing then you have a piston problem.
Can your provide a link to this Pressure Gauge so I can get one.
Great idea to monitor every now and then.

Keith,
Marietta, GA
I used one off an old bicycle pup. Stuck it on a piece of hose, got a connector from Home Depot and just stuck it in breather tube. If you put it on a "T" you could actually watch it as you're riding.
OP
@klaborde avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
2009 MP3/250, 2012 GTS Super 300ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4308
Location: Marietta, GA
 
Ossessionato
@klaborde avatar
2009 MP3/250, 2012 GTS Super 300ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4308
Location: Marietta, GA
UTC quote
BubbaJon wrote:
klaborde wrote:
BubbaJon wrote:
VespaGT250 wrote:
Quote:
Hi Keith,

Main problem of piston's cooling is not that much the temperature of the oil (even if lowering it is for sure always welcome!) but more the oil circuit's pressure.
As the piston is cooled by oil jet blowing from underneath, when the pressure drops under 1,5bar (this is the minimum pressure Piaggio recommends - higher is 4,5 bar) piston's cooling becomes insufficient or inexistent in the worst cases. Oil fluidity directly impacts oil system's pressure, here is what Motul writes about its 300V 15W50 on their website:

" The SAE 15W-50 viscosity enables to compensate high engine oil dilution by unburned fuel and maintains a stable oil pressure."

In our observations, the 5W40 oil running at high outside temperatures can cause system's pressure to drop under 1,5bar, jeopardizing the piston.
As already told, this is the most logical lead we've found when analysing deeper the cracked piston, there might be others.

Cheers!
Well depending on what my local shop reports back I will give this a try and take the bike on a good 70+ motorway ride to the state border and back and see what happens.

I dropped the bike off this past Saturday and they are doing some test that the Piaggio tech reps want done such as cold compression test, hot compression test and I believe one more.

So depending on what they find will determine if I keep this bike or not. I am really hoping it is very minor cause I do love this bike and will give the 15w50 a shot, but if they have to tear apart a brand new motor warranty or not, I'm not having it on a bike with less than 4k miles it's gone and off to something else.

Again, thank you for all this great info!!

Sean
BTW - simple test I devised. Put a pressure gauge on the breather outlet pipe. Should read around 10 psi or less even at higher rpms. If the pressure keeps climbing then you have a piston problem.
Can your provide a link to this Pressure Gauge so I can get one.
Great idea to monitor every now and then.

Keith,
Marietta, GA
I used one off an old bicycle pup. Stuck it on a piece of hose, got a connector from Home Depot and just stuck it in breather tube. If you put it on a "T" you could actually watch it as you're riding.
Ok... I need to consider this...

Just an update.
I got back yesterday from an almost 400 Mile Ride to meet the MV Gathering Riders at Highlands for lunch. Long day, started at 5AM, I took Georgia-400 North to Helen from I285, I kept the throttle at 70 / 75 MPH for a good 50 Miles. Checked the Air Box / Dip Stick, and I had no lowering of Oil, or Oil in the Air box. So 1500cc of Oil is my current "Sweet Spot". I am going to try 1600cc on the next change.

Keith,
Mariettta, GA
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@preddybaer avatar
UTC

Hooked
GTS300, CRF1000 & Moto 6.5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 489
Location: Berlin, Germany
 
Hooked
@preddybaer avatar
GTS300, CRF1000 & Moto 6.5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 489
Location: Berlin, Germany
UTC quote
Nano oils
gents, just wanted to ask if you have tried special motorsport NANO oils?

I have this oil https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/cfs-10w60-nt-plus-engine-oil from Millers in UK in my Alfa Romeo 159 3.2L V6 Q4 and had it in my previous GTS 300s

got to this one when read an article that on some racing Porsche GT3 and Nissan GT-R they managed to get several ponnies more (on rolling road) just by simple change of the oil.

I am normally pushing my Alfa quite a lot and am having no issues with it.

Vespas were also driven 125 km/h on German Autobahn for good 10-20 km also without problems.

maybe this grade could help this MP3's oil bubbling problem plus let the engine run bit easier?

food for a thought?
OP
@klaborde avatar
UTC

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2009 MP3/250, 2012 GTS Super 300ie
Joined: UTC
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Location: Marietta, GA
 
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@klaborde avatar
2009 MP3/250, 2012 GTS Super 300ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4308
Location: Marietta, GA
UTC quote
Re: Nano oils
PreddyBaer wrote:
gents, just wanted to ask if you have tried special motorsport NANO oils?

I have this oil https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/cfs-10w60-nt-plus-engine-oil from Millers in UK in my Alfa Romeo 159 3.2L V6 Q4 and had it in my previous GTS 300s

got to this one when read an article that on some racing Porsche GT3 and Nissan GT-R they managed to get several ponnies more (on rolling road) just by simple change of the oil.

I am normally pushing my Alfa quite a lot and am having no issues with it.

Vespas were also driven 125 km/h on German Autobahn for good 10-20 km also without problems.

maybe this grade could help this MP3's oil bubbling problem plus let the engine run bit easier?

food for a thought?
Thanks for posting this information.
I will certainly check it out.

Keith,
Marietta, GA
@maksor avatar
UTC

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Gilera Fuoco 500ie
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Location: Netherlands Olst
 
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@maksor avatar
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
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Location: Netherlands Olst
UTC quote
most people overfill they check the oil on the centrestand then the leverl is to low


1 make sure the spot where you check your oil is level not on a sloped
driveway

2 Put the bike on rolllock

3 Stay between halfway mark with a cold engine

it is simple
UTC

Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500 2016
Joined: UTC
Posts: 111
Location: Chicago
 
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Piaggio MP3 500 2016
Joined: UTC
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Location: Chicago
UTC quote
Maksor wrote:
most people overfill they check the oil on the centrestand then the leverl is to low


1 make sure the spot where you check your oil is level not on a sloped
driveway

2 Put the bike on rolllock

3 Stay between halfway mark with a cold engine

it is simple
This is probably a dumb question, but here goes. How exactly do you properly check oil level?

1) Wait till engine is cold
2) Do not put bike on center stand? Just use handbrake (roll lock)
3) Unscrew dipstick so that it is completely unscrewed
4) Take out dipstick, clean it
5) Put dipstick back in, do not screw it.
6) Take it out, that's your oil level. Is that accurate?

Thanks.
@madison_sully avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2013 Piaggio BV 350, 2014 Can Am Spyder RT
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@madison_sully avatar
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2013 Piaggio BV 350, 2014 Can Am Spyder RT
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7565
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
UTC quote
greenspam wrote:
Maksor wrote:
most people overfill they check the oil on the centrestand then the leverl is to low


1 make sure the spot where you check your oil is level not on a sloped
driveway

2 Put the bike on rolllock

3 Stay between halfway mark with a cold engine

it is simple
This is probably a dumb question, but here goes. How exactly do you properly check oil level?

1) Wait till engine is cold
2) Do not put bike on center stand? Just use handbrake (roll lock)
3) Unscrew dipstick so that it is completely unscrewed
4) Take out dipstick, clean it
5) Put dipstick back in, do not screw it.
6) Take it out, that's your oil level. Is that accurate?

Thanks.
5) Screw the dipstick all the way in.
@dooglas avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: UTC
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Location: Oregon City, OR
 
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@dooglas avatar
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
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Location: Oregon City, OR
UTC quote
Madison Sully wrote:
Screw the dipstick all the way in.
Yes, and this will make an important difference as far as overfilling.
UTC

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Scarabeo 500GT(hers), `07 250 MP3, `09 400 MP3
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Scarabeo 500GT(hers), `07 250 MP3, `09 400 MP3
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Posts: 2592
Location: Kingman, Az.
UTC quote
This is so basic even if you check your oil level in a car or truck. You don't check the oil level until you have stopped the motor and waited at least a few minutes for the oil in the motor to settle down. On my Suzuki MC you have to wait 20 minutes since it's motor oil is in the transmission too if you want to get an accurate reading. Don't be in a rush. God, I hope this isn't the real reason 500 MP3s have oil issues none of the other MP3s have. I've been steering away new 500 MP3 buyers from the 500 for all the negative complaints I've heard here for years to what I thought was a piston or design issue only on the 500 MP3 motor.
OP
@klaborde avatar
UTC

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2009 MP3/250, 2012 GTS Super 300ie
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@klaborde avatar
2009 MP3/250, 2012 GTS Super 300ie
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Posts: 4308
Location: Marietta, GA
UTC quote
This was posted on a different Thread...
I think it is worth mentioning here.
See Picture.

I think this is deserving of a Recall to all the other models.
But I am sure that wont ever happen.

I have been using the Motul 15W50 at the suggestion of our friends in France who frequently visit here.

Keith,
Marietta, GA
Piaggio making changes to 2018 Model with Engine.
Piaggio making changes to 2018 Model with Engine.
UTC

Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500 2016
Joined: UTC
Posts: 111
Location: Chicago
 
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Piaggio MP3 500 2016
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Posts: 111
Location: Chicago
UTC quote
klaborde wrote:
This was posted on a different Thread...
I think it is worth mentioning here.
See Picture.

I think this is deserving of a Recall to all the other models.
But I am sure that wont ever happen.

I have been using the Motul 15W50 at the suggestion of our friends in France who frequently visit here.

Keith,
Marietta, GA
I believe 15W50 is what Piaggio recommends, no? Are you still putting only 1500cc even with 15W50?
@frcx94 avatar
UTC

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2019 MP3 500 HPE Business
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Location: Paris - France
 
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Posts: 826
Location: Paris - France
UTC quote
greenspam wrote:
I believe 15W50 is what Piaggio recommends, no?
No, for Piaggio it's 5w40....
UTC

Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500 2016
Joined: UTC
Posts: 111
Location: Chicago
 
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500 2016
Joined: UTC
Posts: 111
Location: Chicago
UTC quote
frcx94 wrote:
greenspam wrote:
I believe 15W50 is what Piaggio recommends, no?
No, for Piaggio it's 5w40....
Weird. When I bought my Piaggio, my dealer put in 15W50 and told me to use 15W50... May be it's because I live in Chicago it's so cold here during winter.
@frcx94 avatar
UTC

Addicted
2019 MP3 500 HPE Business
Joined: UTC
Posts: 826
Location: Paris - France
 
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@frcx94 avatar
2019 MP3 500 HPE Business
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Location: Paris - France
UTC quote
greenspam wrote:
frcx94 wrote:
greenspam wrote:
I believe 15W50 is what Piaggio recommends, no?
No, for Piaggio it's 5w40....
Weird. When I bought my Piaggio, my dealer put in 15W50 and told me to use 15W50... May be it's because I live in Chicago it's so cold here during winter.
Just for information, for engine oils the first digit corresponds to the cold protection, and the second digit is for resistance to heat ....
For Chicago, the ideal would be to find the 5w50 !!!
UTC

Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500 2016
Joined: UTC
Posts: 111
Location: Chicago
 
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500 2016
Joined: UTC
Posts: 111
Location: Chicago
UTC quote
frcx94 wrote:
greenspam wrote:
frcx94 wrote:
greenspam wrote:
I believe 15W50 is what Piaggio recommends, no?
No, for Piaggio it's 5w40....
Weird. When I bought my Piaggio, my dealer put in 15W50 and told me to use 15W50... May be it's because I live in Chicago it's so cold here during winter.
Just for information, for engine oils the first digit corresponds to the cold protection, and the second digit is for resistance to heat ....
For Chicago, the ideal would be to find the 5w50 !!!
Actually, you are right! Damn dealer.
@bubbajon avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5288
Location: Austin, TX
 
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@bubbajon avatar
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5288
Location: Austin, TX
UTC quote
norCal Randy wrote:
This is so basic even if you check your oil level in a car or truck. You don't check the oil level until you have stopped the motor and waited at least a few minutes for the oil in the motor to settle down. On my Suzuki MC you have to wait 20 minutes since it's motor oil is in the transmission too if you want to get an accurate reading. Don't be in a rush. God, I hope this isn't the real reason 500 MP3s have oil issues none of the other MP3s have. I've been steering away new 500 MP3 buyers from the 500 for all the negative complaints I've heard here for years to what I thought was a piston or design issue only on the 500 MP3 motor.
I'm a skilled mechanic and my dad was a professional. I never filled mine up all the way and always checked the oil first thing before starting.
I had the problem really bad - started around 13,000 miles.
It's the engine not something stupid like oil level.
OP
@klaborde avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
2009 MP3/250, 2012 GTS Super 300ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4308
Location: Marietta, GA
 
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@klaborde avatar
2009 MP3/250, 2012 GTS Super 300ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4308
Location: Marietta, GA
UTC quote
greenspam wrote:
klaborde wrote:
This was posted on a different Thread...
I think it is worth mentioning here.
See Picture.

I think this is deserving of a Recall to all the other models.
But I am sure that wont ever happen.

I have been using the Motul 15W50 at the suggestion of our friends in France who frequently visit here.

Keith,
Marietta, GA
I believe 15W50 is what Piaggio recommends, no? Are you still putting only 1500cc even with 15W50?
Piaggio Manual states 5W40 AGIP, something Similar.

I am using Motul 15W50, only 1500cc, shows low to 1/2 on dip stick.
Depends if your on Center Stand, or off with Tilt-Lock engaged.
You put any more, like the 1700cc recommedation...
It will be in your Air Box, in your Air Filter, and if you ignore this and you keep adding oil. Your rear Oil Bubble will show oil, or the front Clear Hose will show Oil in it.

I monitor this engine very close...
Before I ride I check my Oil and take a picture of my Dip Stick, when I stop I compare the picture to what I see, and when I get home after cooling down I take another picture. I know this is a pain in the Ass to do, but until I get some more miles on this bike, I just don't trust it. I am out of warranty now, if I get any indication of the Piston Problem, I'm going to "Dump the Bike"...
Very happy with my Air Filter which I check after Cool Down, see attachment.

Keith
Marietta, GA
As long as I continue to see a filter like this, I am happy.
As long as I continue to see a filter like this, I am happy.
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