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Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VSX Li150 C125 - (o9c vmb vse)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9943 Location: Hustletown, TX |
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Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '74 VBC1, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1864 Location: Tucson, AZ |
UTC
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Birdsnest wrote: Lolz… one man's trash… 😂 We put the Geely on the curb and somebody took it. We didn't keep *all* the trash. I know some of you have Riva 80s lurking in a corner, so I don't feel bad about keeping mine. |
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Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VSX Li150 C125 - (o9c vmb vse)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9943 Location: Hustletown, TX |
UTC
quote
I don't judge!
Every stray scooter (dog) saved is a star helping navigate towards happiness. Good on ya! |
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Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
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Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
UTC
quote
Hey, at least you got a pair of free vice grips out of the deal!
I finished dropping the port timings on my P200 motor, then threw the 8" hub on it and installed it into the VBB this evening. Naturally, I managed to install the shift cables backwards. I have something broken in my brain about that, because I get them wrong way more than I get them right. I figured that out when I took it for a quick test ride. It explained why first gear seemed kind've slow, though. So I'll have to swap those out, then do a little test riding. The carb is pig rich, too. It's been so long since I really did anything with that motor, though, that I don't recall what I might have been halfway through doing setup-wise. Obligatory start, because while it's only sort've a first start, I did have the motor on the bench and the top end off. Carb is rich, which is interesting, so I'll have to get that sorted. And I'm going to keep the autolube and install an oil tank in the glovebox. I did that on my GL at one point, but then went to the premix setup and deleted that, but I still have the tank and it's not difficult to set up.
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Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VSX Li150 C125 - (o9c vmb vse)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9943 Location: Hustletown, TX |
UTC
quote
Number of the beast showing up with some hard starting issues… acting like it's flooded.
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UTC
Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
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Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
UTC
quote
Birdsnest wrote: Number of the beast showing up with some hard starting issues… acting like it's flooded. |
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The Dude
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2461 Location: PNW from LBC |
UTC
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chandlerman wrote: Wait... Does this mean scooters *aren't* The Devil's Ride???
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UTC
Ossessionato
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2628 Location: Philadelphia |
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Ossessionato
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2628 Location: Philadelphia |
UTC
quote
Been doing house work of late. When we bought the house there was a huge walk in closet in the middle bedroom on the 2nd floor. That closet was put in to hide a prior leak and the "fix" they did. Which was running the friggin drain pipe out of the wall and up through the ceiling. Makes sense right? Didn't think so either. So finally got around to fixing all that. Tore out the closet over the summer and got motivated to finish up so I can paint the room finally. Found some sagging plaster, scraped that off and found a bunch of rotted lathe. Removed that and grabbed some old lathe from a friend who's renovating a house. Getting ready to replaster the hole and while I had some energy I cut a piece of the crown molding out to make a jig to redo the crown where it's missing. Took a hundred cuts to get it close and now I'm ready to plaster….. in like a month when my arms/neck/spine recover and hopefully before I need to replace both knees.
Onwards and upwards!
Here's the pipe
The closet is gone.
To make things better, first you make it worse!
Cut this piece out to get a good clean template
Classic crown. Historic even.
Traced the crown.
Gonna use this to make a proper jig. Maybe out of plastic or something that plaster won't stick to so much.
Highly Rated
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The Dude
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2461 Location: PNW from LBC |
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Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VSX Li150 C125 - (o9c vmb vse)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9943 Location: Hustletown, TX |
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Ossessionato
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '65 VBB, '66 Allstate SF, '66 180SS, '58 LD 125 (150)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2411 Location: S.Salem, NY |
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I love that kind of thing, though I've never taken on complex crown molding. I spent some time learning how to make a coped 45 joint on basic moldings. Works a lot better than mitering them.
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UTC
Ossessionato
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2628 Location: Philadelphia |
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Ossessionato
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2628 Location: Philadelphia |
UTC
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Moto64 wrote: You're going to pull the crown in place ? Cool. Doh! |
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UTC
Ossessionato
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2628 Location: Philadelphia |
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Ossessionato
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2628 Location: Philadelphia |
UTC
quote
GeekLion wrote: Very nice Friday! I like the attention to detail to match the original crown molding |
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UTC
Ossessionato
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2628 Location: Philadelphia |
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Ossessionato
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2628 Location: Philadelphia |
UTC
quote
orwell84 wrote: I love that kind of thing, though I've never taken on complex crown molding. I spent some time learning how to make a coped 45 joint on basic moldings. Works a lot better than mitering them. |
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UTC
Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
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Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
UTC
quote
Today was VBB Punch List Day in the workshop.
Now that the 210 motor is in it, I took a little time to tighten the brake cables so that I can actually stop (well...stop by 8" standards, anyway), replaced the side stand with a center stand, and little stuff like properly hooking up the electricals. But, as we all know, what one wrench giveth, another wrench taketh away. I was a checking out some of the new construction along the river when I missed a shift and realized that the shift arm had come off the shift tube. Yeah, that was a problem. Luckily, I was in 2nd gear, so I rode home by running up to 40 MPH, then coasting until I dropped back down to 30, running up to 40, etc. etc. etc. Got home and it took all of three minutes to fix. Fortunately, the bolt and washer were still in the headset and the spacer rings were in place, so I just had to put it back together. A sub-optimal ending to an otherwise fun ride.
That's not right!
No bueno! I hadn't even noticed the cable is frayed. Now I need to fix that. Always somethin'.
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Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '74 VBC1, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1864 Location: Tucson, AZ |
UTC
quote
chandlerman wrote: But, as we all know, what one wrench giveth, another wrench taketh away. I was a checking out some of the new construction along the river when I missed a shift and realized that the shift arm had come off the shift tube. Yeah, that was a problem. Luckily, I was in 2nd gear, so I rode home by running up to 40 MPH, then coasting until I dropped back down to 30, running up to 40, etc. etc. etc. Got home and it took all of three minutes to fix. Fortunately, the bolt and washer were still in the headset and the spacer rings were in place, so I just had to put it back together. A sub-optimal ending to an otherwise fun ride. |
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UTC
Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
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Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
UTC
quote
az_slynch wrote: Nice save, man! Any scooter adventure that doesn't involve riding in the back of another vehicle is a win in my book.
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FridayMatinee wrote: Been doing house work of late. When we bought the house there was a huge walk in closet in the middle bedroom on the 2nd floor. That closet was put in to hide a prior leak and the "fix" they did. Which was running the friggin drain pipe out of the wall and up through the ceiling. Makes sense right? Didn't think so either. So finally got around to fixing all that. Tore out the closet over the summer and got motivated to finish up so I can paint the room finally. Found some sagging plaster, scraped that off and found a bunch of rotted lathe. Removed that and grabbed some old lathe from a friend who's renovating a house. Getting ready to replaster the hole and while I had some energy I cut a piece of the crown molding out to make a jig to redo the crown where it's missing. Took a hundred cuts to get it close and now I'm ready to plaster….. in like a month when my arms/neck/spine recover and hopefully before I need to replace both knees. Onwards and upwards!
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UTC
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FridayMatinee wrote: I still haven't wrapped my head fully around how to do the one corner I need to do by doing the pull method. I may have to make that part on the ground then set it in the corner. We'll see. Might be okay only doing that one small part with my shoulders. Fingers crossed!
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Molto Verboso
P200E DN 1982
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1195 Location: Vva. del Rosario - Málaga - España |
UTC
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chandlerman wrote: ´ Always somethin'. |
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Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '74 VBC1, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1864 Location: Tucson, AZ |
UTC
quote
Learned a new trick today: how to swap the lock cylinder on a 2000's era Yamaha scooter gas cap.
Little value here, but some tricks do translate down the road. I'll caption the pics with notes if you ever need this trick. Took two terrible caps and made a crusty-but-functional one to get by until the new part shows up. Now I can send my buddys wife's scooter home...until the new parts show up.
Last key-pin is open at the bottom and has a notch at the top. In order to actuate it, you want to insert the key all the way in, then pull it back one notch.
The actuator that pulls the locking tabs in is held in with an O-ring. You may just be able to grab on of the tabs with a pair of pliers and wiggle it out, but an O-ring installation tool may be needed if things are crusty/stuck.
The locking pin is visible at 12 o'clock at the bottom of the barrel. Insert the key fully, them pull it back one notch so the other pins don't fly out. Use a jeweller's screwdriver or a pointed probe to catch the pin in its central notch.
Once the pin is depressed, slide your tool to the 11:30 position to ensure the spring is fully compressed. Use a pen or thin rod to push on the center of the lock cylinder to extract it.
⚠️ Last edited by az_slynch on UTC; edited 1 time
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UTC
Member
'74 Rally 200, '77 P200, Project P125/200 and '74 Jet 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 45 Location: IE |
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Member
'74 Rally 200, '77 P200, Project P125/200 and '74 Jet 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 45 Location: IE |
UTC
quote
Speaking of holding on to trash.
Leftovers. Stuff that didn't go to England or Mecum and I thought was cool/quirky enough to keep and pretend that I'll fix em up. I'll need to cut it down more.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 63 VBB (Storm)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5139 Location: Florence, OR |
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Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '74 VBC1, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1864 Location: Tucson, AZ |
UTC
quote
The presence of a bugeye Zuma (YW50) in the presence of a herd of classic tiddlers amuses me greatly.
It has a really good engine that can be made pretty fast and the chassis is robust enough to make hot-rodding the engine a less-dangerous proposition. What all else is in your stash? |
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UTC
Member
'74 Rally 200, '77 P200, Project P125/200 and '74 Jet 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 45 Location: IE |
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Member
'74 Rally 200, '77 P200, Project P125/200 and '74 Jet 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 45 Location: IE |
UTC
quote
I'll look into go fast parts for the Zuma. Seemed like a simple thing to keep to ride into town to get little things instead of firing off the F250.
As for stash, the visible stash in that photo or the overall stash? In that container: All projects to some degree, no stuck engines and no zero compression either. Honda CL 125/175/450, CT, XR 200 Yamaha RT1, XT200, TT500, YCS1, Zuma Suzuki FA 50, TC90, M12 Rickman BSA Mustang mini/moped Kawasaki G3(?) Puch I think there's a Benelli/Husky/Bultaco or something rather in there too. Can't remember which one I kept and what went in the to go container. Passed on all the remaining street bikes, not my thing. Might be a CB or two to change my mind, but as of now, to go container.Little RX50 in there that looks stupid as hell but might be fun if there's go fast parts available. 3 containers full of parts.
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Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '74 VBC1, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1864 Location: Tucson, AZ |
UTC
quote
Today I ..... took my crappy old Yamaha for some ice cream.
Technically, took it along for ice cream. Very stoked that we finally got a Handel's down in the Dirty T. This is usually a guilty pleasure after a trip up to the Scottsdale datacenter.
Keep meaning to hit a coin-op and blast the hantavirus off of it before I unload it.
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UTC
Hooked
GT200/GTS300/Primavera 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 167 Location: Olympia, WA (US) |
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Hooked
GT200/GTS300/Primavera 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 167 Location: Olympia, WA (US) |
UTC
quote
I noticed about a week ago that one of the tail light lamps on my GT200 was not functioning. Simple, I thought, just replace them. Source 2 new LED lamps, remove the cover and replace the old with the new, and *thud*. Not only no tail lamps, but no license plate lamp, instrument lamps, or headlight indicator lamp. Now, the important stuff still works, and I can certainly ride safely in the daylight with what remains, but it annoys me to have things not function, so I delved into the problem.
Research indicated that these features are all powered through the same fuse, so check the fuse (good), check the fuse slot (power), check all the plugs along the way to the back (tight). Now I'm at the end of my knowledge (I think), and phone a friend: Mark Helgen at South Sound Scooters fielded my call, and referred me to Jason Frederick (mechanic extraordinaire), who patiently listened to my recitation and invited me to stop by for a look, as he was not overly busy. A very brisk ride up to Tacoma, then, where Jason had it all sorted within about 15 minutes, and the solution was pretty simple: replace the *other* fuse that had failed (and that I totally overlooked), and we're off again, like a thundering herd of turtles with everything working as it should. Afterward, an uneventful run south to Olympia and since the sun was still out, my dirty and salty scooter was washed and restored to her natural beauty. Get out and ride, scooter friends, the favorable weather days are nearing an end for a while. Cheers, Bob/Curmudgeon
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Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '74 VBC1, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1864 Location: Tucson, AZ |
UTC
quote
Picked up a '11 Vespa LXV for a buddy of mine (howardr) today from our local Italian dealer. They called me to see if I was interested once the insurance paperwork cleared. Howard had a better use case for it than I did, so I agreed to nab it on his behalf.
Ignition was drilled and the steering lock was jammed. The techs were unable to free the steering lock and the repair quote well exceeded the scoot's value, so insurance totalled it. Guy kept the scoot, so I bought it off of him for a salvage price. The dealer brought it around with a forklift and set it next to my truck. I asked to borrow a few Torx bits and a flathead screwdriver from the assisting tech, and he kindly obliged. Popped off the horn cover and the glovebox, then removed the immobilizer antenna to better look at the lock. It was a real mess, so I returned the tools. It took three guys to load it in the truck. After my help left, I looked at the lock some more...remember how I said that knowledge sometimes transfers? I was able to fix a few bits in the lock with a set of PC tools in my truck, clean out some lock body shavings and fit a key in. Had the steering unlocked in ten minutes. Reinstalled the transponder ring and checked a few other connections out. Scoot was running within fifteen minutes of putting it in the truck. Still don't have a brown key, but at least I know it runs. Still may need the ECU "revirginized" before I can put a non-junky keyswitch in it, but that's not a big deal when I got this thing at a fire sale price.
The patient.
Unlocked!
Oh noes, such body damage. 😋
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Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VSX Li150 C125 - (o9c vmb vse)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9943 Location: Hustletown, TX |
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UTC
Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
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Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
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Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '74 VBC1, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1864 Location: Tucson, AZ |
UTC
quote
chandlerman wrote: Wait a minute! Is that a Servetta in the truck need next to your little stolen friend? That's an '84 Yamaha CV80L, aka "Beluga". Yamaha's first swing at a modern scooter, they came out in '81 and were available in the US by '83. Slow-as case-inducted 80cc 2T. 13mm carb, heavy rollers in the CVT, tall final drive gears, good for maybe 37mph. They got a bit faster for '85-'87 with a cylinder mounted reed, a 16mm carb and a quasi expansion chamber pipe. Those versions go 46mph. In either case, a Honda Aero 80 with 2-up will out-accelerate one of these. Body has a surprising amount of metal paneling in it. Possibly the last scooter sold in the US with a 6V electrical system. It's so weak, the e-start only has a chance of working when the electricals are perfect and the engine is already warmed up. Lighting is crap as well. I bought it fifteen years ago for $40, with the Vice Grip included. Engine still rolls over. I figured I should at least make a parts list and start looking before no spares exist. I had a Tamiya kit of this scoot when I was a kid and I told myself I'd find one someday. They're uncommon, most likely because they were crap when new, nevermind now! I also have the book.
It's weird, which is why I like it.
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Ossessionato
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, 2003 Malaguti F12 Phantom,Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2015 Location: Ventura, CA |
UTC
quote
az_slynch wrote: Picked up a '11 Vespa LXV for a buddy of mine (howardr) today from our local Italian dealer. They called me to see if I was interested once the insurance paperwork cleared. Howard had a better use case for it than I did, so I agreed to nab it on his behalf. Ignition was drilled and the steering lock was jammed. The techs were unable to free the steering lock and the repair quote well exceeded the scoot's value, so insurance totalled it. Guy kept the scoot, so I bought it off of him for a salvage price. The dealer brought it around with a forklift and set it next to my truck. I asked to borrow a few Torx bits and a flathead screwdriver from the assisting tech, and he kindly obliged. Popped off the horn cover and the glovebox, then removed the immobilizer antenna to better look at the lock. It was a real mess, so I returned the tools. It took three guys to load it in the truck. After my help left, I looked at the lock some more...remember how I said that knowledge sometimes transfers? I was able to fix a few bits in the lock with a set of PC tools in my truck, clean out some lock body shavings and fit a key in. Had the steering unlocked in ten minutes. Reinstalled the transponder ring and checked a few other connections out. Scoot was running within fifteen minutes of putting it in the truck. Still don't have a brown key, but at least I know it runs. Still may need the ECU "revirginized" before I can put a non-junky keyswitch in it, but that's not a big deal when I got this thing at a fire sale price. |
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UTC
Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
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Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
UTC
quote
az_slynch wrote: Might want to check your lens prescription, hamigo. That's an '84 Yamaha CV80L, aka "Beluga". Yamaha's first swing at a modern scooter, they came out in '81 and were available in the US by '83. |
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Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '74 VBC1, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1864 Location: Tucson, AZ |
UTC
quote
chandlerman wrote: I saw that snippet of fork and fender, which I still think look quite Servatta-ish, but can't deny that I forgot there are more weird scooters out there than just Lambrettas. https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/lambretta-serveta-jet-200.1393055/ Maybe Yamaha was looking at Serveta's notes when designing the Beluga? While the Serveta is clearly the cooler scoot, going team Yamaha got you bougie accessories like a tennis racket carrier! |
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Hooked
Primrose: 1979 ET3; Roland: 1980 P200E; Scarlett: 1981 ET3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 322 Location: San Jose, CA |
UTC
quote
Today, I tried to kickstart my ET3 - after three or four kicks I realized it works better with the ignition key, which was still in the house.
I went out, put petrol in, then, a minute or two after I pulled away, realized it also works better if you turn the fuel tap from reserve to open, rather than reserve to closed. I'll get the hang of this soon!
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Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VSX Li150 C125 - (o9c vmb vse)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9943 Location: Hustletown, TX |
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UTC
Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
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Innovator
63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3, 63 Lammy S3 Riverside
Joined: UTC
Posts: 12146 Location: Nashville 54 Days Since Last Explosion |
UTC
quote
I still do stuff like that more often than I'd care to admit. Eventually, you'll learn skills like turning the fuel tap on or to reserve while riding at high speed, then bump starting in 4th gear. It's all part of the fun.
For me, today was trying to sneak out between rainstorms for a quick test ride on the GL to check front brake adjustment and get the motor warmed up enough to set the idle and mixture. I got about half a mile from the house and the skies opened. By the time I got back home, I was dripping wet and reminded that my medium weight jacket is no longer even remotely waterproof. |
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UTC
Hooked
66 bluebadge, 73 primavera,2x 74 rally,79 p200e 64 gl 306 2x 64 vbb
Joined: UTC
Posts: 252 |
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Hooked
66 bluebadge, 73 primavera,2x 74 rally,79 p200e 64 gl 306 2x 64 vbb
Joined: UTC
Posts: 252 |
UTC
quote
The kill switch on my p200 kept randomly getting flipped, it annoyed me so much I replaced the good switch with a broken one, so the key is the only way to kill the motor. I feel stupid enough without the help from Mr. Piagio
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