OP
@sdjohn avatar
UTC

Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9004
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Johnny Two Tone
@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9004
Location: San Diego, CA
UTC quote
So I see all of these solutions for largeframe clutches - banded clutches, CNC clutches, etc. My question is - how easy is it to get into trouble on the largeframe P200 motor? I'm assuming this isn't a problem on stock setups, but how much power can you add before it is a problem? I've got this Pinasco 213 kit on the shelf - if I install it will I grenade the stock clutch? It would be using a SIP road and DRT version of the 24.24 carb (drilled passageways for better fuel flow).

I figure I better know what I'm getting into if I do install it. Part of my quandary is that I'm still half of a mind that if I do get into building this thing, I want to pull it from the bike and put in a T5 4th, because the stock 3-4 P200 shift gap is just stupid. If the clutch has to go as well, then probably it should be replaced with straight cut gears, which is a case split anyway, etc. etc. etc. It's always a slippery slope but it's better to have a plan than to do it half-assed six times.

-John
@ginch avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8885
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8885
Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
Plenty of people here are using that kit with a SIP road, stock clutch and no issues. So unless you like to drop the clutch at every traffic light you should be fine.

If you are looking at putting in an upgear kit, can I suggest this?
http://www.scooter-center.com/en/product/BGM6564/Primary+drive+wheel+BGM+PRO+Vespa+PX200+Rally200+64+teeth+helical?meta=

Saves you changing the clutch gear/plate, and if you get a BGM clutch in the future you can have a choice of ratios.
OP
@sdjohn avatar
UTC

Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9004
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Johnny Two Tone
@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9004
Location: San Diego, CA
UTC quote
Thanks Ginch. I am on the reverse learning curve of most here, having started with Lambretta, then tuning a smallframe, and now looking at tuning the P200 just a bit. It's easy to see why the largeframe has a disadvantage with the clutch at engine speed vs. the other two. I wasn't sure if the rev range expansion people do with pipes was the bigger factor or the torque increase. I'm sure it's a bit of both.

Nice one with the sprocket there. I haven't shopped primary and clutch gear options much. I was looking at smaller toothed clutch gear baskets for more RPM in 4th with the stock top end but went for a smaller tire in the meantime.
@rob_hodge avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1924
Location: Seattle
 
Molto Verboso
@rob_hodge avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1924
Location: Seattle
UTC quote
the standard seven spring clutches are more durrable than msot people give them credit for.

back when i was racing MASS in the early 2000's , most were running stock clutches, and the most beefed up people were going was a banded basket.

I was running cosa clutches, unbanded, and most of my fellow racers considered that overkill.

if you are running just a pinasco, 24/24 and a sip road, i wouldn't even think of going beyond the stock clutch.
@jimvanmorrissey avatar
UTC

Addicted
Vespa PX200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 575
Location: Belgrade
 
Addicted
@jimvanmorrissey avatar
Vespa PX200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 575
Location: Belgrade
UTC quote
I can't speak to the durability of the stock 7-spring clutch, but I once managed to grenade a Cosa II clutch with nothing but a Polini 210 kit and a Sip Road 1.0. The Cosa II had flowered, visibly. I installed a stronger retainer clip, but still no joy -- it grenaded again.

I then shelled out for this milled MMW 10-spring clutch that's probably good for twice as much power as I'm putting out right now and stopped worrying. It seemed like an extravagance at the time but in hindsight that was money well spent.
OP
@sdjohn avatar
UTC

Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9004
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Johnny Two Tone
@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9004
Location: San Diego, CA
UTC quote
Thanks, exactly the input I was after. Stock it is.
@vader19 avatar
UTC

Mr. Clean
P,SUPER,V90, 50 Special
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10205
Location: This is't my locker!
 
Mr. Clean
@vader19 avatar
P,SUPER,V90, 50 Special
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10205
Location: This is't my locker!
UTC quote
sdjohn wrote:
Thanks, exactly the input I was after. Stock it is.
John.. IIWY, I'd at least put stiffer spring in it. my 2c
UTC

Hooked
78 P200 05 PX150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 214
Location: Fort Collins, CO
 
Hooked
78 P200 05 PX150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 214
Location: Fort Collins, CO
UTC quote
With my Pinasco setup on my P200 I had to upgrade the springs. Hotrod Al suggested the Pinasco Sport Springs. They were just the ticket. Clutch pull didn't seem much different than stock yet no more slipping.

I am also running a banded basket and Sureflex plates. Avoid the Cosa clutches like the plague.

https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic87680.3

Chuck[/url]
OP
@sdjohn avatar
UTC

Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9004
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Johnny Two Tone
@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9004
Location: San Diego, CA
UTC quote
Excellent, keep it coming . Springs are easy, is there a reinforced circlip too ?
UTC

Hooked
78 P200 05 PX150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 214
Location: Fort Collins, CO
 
Hooked
78 P200 05 PX150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 214
Location: Fort Collins, CO
UTC quote
Read my thread. I re-used the stock clip. The banding prevents the basket from opening up so the stock clip works fine.

Chuck
OP
@sdjohn avatar
UTC

Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9004
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Johnny Two Tone
@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9004
Location: San Diego, CA
UTC quote
Thanks Chuck, I had read this before but it's been a while. Killer thread that is.
@safis avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4567
Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
@safis avatar
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4567
Location: Veria, Greece
@pengsterism avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
'77 VLB, '79 VBC
Joined: UTC
Posts: 93
Location: Bodgeville, South East Asia
 
Enthusiast
@pengsterism avatar
'77 VLB, '79 VBC
Joined: UTC
Posts: 93
Location: Bodgeville, South East Asia
UTC quote
Got same problem when using 150cc clutch. Later changed to px200 clutch.still not reliable.

Currently using BGM Superstrong Cosa clutch. No problem so far.

Here's the link if you wanna have a look.

http://www.scooter-center.com/en/product/BGM8099/Clutch+BGM+Superstrong+CNC+Typ+Cosa2FL+for+primary+drive+wheel+6465+Vespa+PX200+Rally200+23+teeth+for+6465+teeth?meta=
UTC

Ossessionato
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2013
Location: UK (South East)
 
Ossessionato
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2013
Location: UK (South East)
UTC quote
I use the stock 7 spring with a good quality band and slightly stiffer springs with my Pinasco. It's flawless, but you must start with components in decent condition. I believe that a lot of clutches fail because they are in poor shape to begin with, not because the power and/or RPM is too much for them.
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